Taking 10: Immediate dangers and distractions


Rules Questions

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:


You roll perception long before the combat starts.
Citation required.

No need for combat to roll for perception, you can roll for perception to find a hidden shoe, even if the shoe is not attacking you. You can, as well, roll for perception to find a hidden spider, even if the spider is not attacking you (yet). If you have good enough vision (and perception high enough), you could find said hidden spider much longer than the spider could see you (and therefore, before the spider is going to initiate combat with you).

I don't see how I could find a citation for that. Is there a citation somewhere saying that you NEED to be in combat to roll for perception? Do I have to fight every hidden door I search for?

EDIT: forcing a combat to be able to roll perception vs a hiding creature will really kill a lot of toedlers who play game of hide and seek, and also will make any creature who try to hide to *avoid* combat essentially impossible to find regardless of his hide skill, as you can only roll perception vs hide after combat is initiated, which the hiding creature doesn't want to initiate.


_Ozy_ wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:


You roll perception long before the combat starts.
Citation required.

Perception DC is -1 per 10'.

If I get to roll perception 30' away to see the hidden goblins, then I get to make that same check 130' away at -10, or 230' away at -20

The citation is the text of the perception skill. Distance modifiers exist for a reason.

I don't see the relevance there.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Byakko wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I need to repeat.

Take 10 is not a guaranteed success.

PCs don't know the DCs and opposed rolls.

If the DC is easy, taking 10 IS effectively a guaranteed success.

Why should HEROES risk failure at an EASY tasks???


BigNorseWolf wrote:

I don't see the relevance there.

Are you joking?

Stealth/Perception are opposed rolls. The goblins can be seen from 30, 100, 300, 1000' away with a high enough perception roll.

Tell me, if I spot those goblins from 300' away, what combat has started?


gustavo iglesias wrote:


No need for combat to roll for perception, you can roll for perception to find a hidden shoe, even if the shoe is not attacking you.

Ok, The straw men are starting to multiply too fast to be a good faith effort and understanding here.

I did not say you can't take 10 on any perception rolls. I said you can't take 10 on the perception roll to determine surprise at the start of combat.

Just because you can take 10 on a perception roll to find your left shoe in the morning does not mean that you can always take 10 on perception rolls. What you're using for the skill matters.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:


You roll perception long before the combat starts.
Citation required.

Perception DC is -1 per 10'.

If I get to roll perception 30' away to see the hidden goblins, then I get to make that same check 130' away at -10, or 230' away at -20

The citation is the text of the perception skill. Distance modifiers exist for a reason.

I don't see the relevance there.

the relevance is that my character with Perception 40 could find the ambushing goblin with perception -1 long before said ambushing goblin notice my character (and thus long before he's ready to initiate combat, and thus long before he could threaten my character).

Also, in the SRD, I found this

"Surprise

When a combat start, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised."

Either you are aware of the enemy before the combat starts, or you are surprised. When combat starts (ie: when you roll initiative) it's already too late to notice things, because you are already surprised, unless you are already aware of the danger.


That passage was already pointed out to him and subsequently ignored by him. I doubt the 2nd or 3rd time he sees it will change his mind.


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gustavo iglesias wrote:
Byakko wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I need to repeat.

Take 10 is not a guaranteed success.

PCs don't know the DCs and opposed rolls.

If the DC is easy, taking 10 IS effectively a guaranteed success.

There are many situations where PCs have a very good idea (or near perfect knowledge) of what the DCs involved are. For example, anyone with decent knowledge of the rules is going to take 10 when climbing a knotted rope.

But characters don't know about DCs and don't have "decent knowledge of the rules". Players do. Also, characters don't decide to take 10. Players do.

But characters do have a pretty good idea of what they can do. Ever looked at a ski slope and known that you could not handle it? Then you knew that the DC was higher than you were used to (higher than you could take 10 with). Characters who test their abilities on an almost daily basis should have an even greater understanding of their capabilities.


"are not". Not "were not" The start of combat is still in combat, just like the start of a race is still in the race.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:


No need for combat to roll for perception, you can roll for perception to find a hidden shoe, even if the shoe is not attacking you.

Ok, The straw men are starting to multiply too fast to be a good faith effort and understanding here.

I did not say you can't take 10 on any perception rolls. I said you can't take 10 on the perception roll to determine surprise at the start of combat.

Just because you can take 10 on a perception roll to find your left shoe in the morning does not mean that you can always take 10 on perception rolls. What you're using for the skill matters.

Mental gymnastic much?

I can make a perception roll to find anything that is hiding. That includes a shoe, a gobling who is not trying to attack me, but hiding because he fears me, a goblin that is trying to attack me, but is not aware of me himself (because I'm also stealthy), a goblin that is trying to attack me and is aware of me, but is waiting until I'm closer to be able to jump on me (and I see him 200' away because I have perception 40), or a goblin that is ambushing me.

In fact, the roll is what decides how far I find him. If I beat his stealth by 1, I find him only 10' away, but if I beat his stealth roll by 20, I find him 200' away. And thats so, regardless of the goblin intention: he could be ambushing me, ready to hit me with a dagger when I pass next to him, or he could be ready to throw me the dagger at 10', or he could be ready to cast a fireball against me at 200', that's not relevant


thorin001 wrote:


But characters do have a pretty good idea of what they can do. Ever looked at a ski slope and known that you could not handle it?

No. Couldn't find ski boots in my size.

Quote:
Then you knew that the DC was higher than you were used to (higher than you could take 10 with). Characters who test their abilities on an almost daily basis should have an even greater understanding of their capabilities.

I generally give out a rough idea of the dcs for things players can see and examine. The side of a cliff, the lock on a door, the whirlygig rogue dehander 5,000 security system. But not ambushes. You don't know what you're going to be ambushed by(kinda the definition of an ambush) , so you don't know how difficult it would be to stop.


Do you allow players with high perceptions to roll 100' away, 200' away, 300' away from the ambush spot?

You should.


gustavo iglesias wrote:


Mental gymnastic much?

Not at all. None of your arguments are remotely good enough to level that accusation. Knock it off.

The thing trying to ambush you is an immediate danger.

You are in immediate danger.

You cannot take 10

Quote:
I can make a perception roll to find anything that is hiding. That includes a shoe, a goblin who is not trying to attack me, but hiding because he fears me, a goblin that is trying to attack me, but is not aware of me himself (because I'm also stealthy), a goblin that is trying to attack me and is aware of me, but is waiting until I'm closer to be able to jump on me (and I see him 200' away because I have perception 40), or a goblin that is ambushing me.

So if you can ever use take 10 on a skill, you can always use take 10 on a skill? Thats rubbish. If that were the case skills would come with "can i take 10 on this".


BigNorseWolf wrote:
"are not". Not "were not" The start of combat is still in combat, just like the start of a race is still in the race.

Yes, and if at the start of the race you are not in the starting position, you are disqualified.

So far we have shown that:
1) you don't need to be in combat to roll for perception (that's why you can find hiding goblins that don't want to attack you)
2) at the start of combat, if you are not aware of your enemy, you are surprised

What we haven't seen, yet, is anything that says us that you *can't* roll to find a hiding goblin *until* the start of combat. Sure, you could roll for pereception once the combat has started, although you are already surprised (for example, if said goblin didn't attack you with his first standard action, and used it for Studied Combat because he's a slayer). You could even roll for perception long after the combat started, for example if the goblin is sniping and keeps hiding. However, the fact that you could roll for perception after combat begins, doesn't change at all the fact that you can roll for perception before combat begins, as you do with anything that tries to hide from you, even when that thing doesn't try to attack you at all. Like a goblin that fears you and hides to save his life, or your toedler playing hide-and-seek with you.


Dude, answer the frickin' question. What combat exists 300' away from the ambush site? Why can't players roll to perceive the ambush when they are hundreds of feet away from any danger?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:


No need for combat to roll for perception, you can roll for perception to find a hidden shoe, even if the shoe is not attacking you.

Ok, The straw men are starting to multiply too fast to be a good faith effort and understanding here.

I did not say you can't take 10 on any perception rolls. I said you can't take 10 on the perception roll to determine surprise at the start of combat.

Just because you can take 10 on a perception roll to find your left shoe in the morning does not mean that you can always take 10 on perception rolls. What you're using for the skill matters.

And what is your justification for that denial? You cannot be distracted by what you are unaware of.

Oh, and there is a difference between strawmen and reductio ad absurdum. Those whose arguments have been debunked by reductio usually claim to be the victims of strawmen.


Gustavo wrote:
hat we haven't seen, yet, is anything that says us that you *can't* roll to find a hiding goblin *until* the start of combat

Its on the list. quoted at the start. It has numbers telling you what order things happen in. When the goblin is close enough for the perception roll is the definition of "the start of combat"- even if you decide to sneak away or parley. You're close enough that who is exactly where, doing exactly what, in exactly what order matters.

You're treating everything like zero time and then wondering why nothing can happen.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:


Mental gymnastic much?

Not at all. None of your arguments are remotely good enough to level that accusation. Knock it off.

The thing trying to ambush you is an immediate danger.

You are in immediate danger.

No, I'm not. I'm freaking Hawkeye, and I can see the goblin 200' away. He has a light mace and no ranged weapon. Danger is by no means "inmediate". I have enough perception skill to hear the goblin even with the +5 modifier of having a closed door between us. I'm good enough to hear him even with the +10 modifier per foot of wall. In fact, I'm good enough to hear him, even when he's not able to hear me yet, because he's not good enough to hear me with the +10 modifier of the 1 foot wall. I'm not in danger, the goblin doesn't even know I'm there yet, because my perception is MUCH better than his.

Quote:

So if you can ever use take 10 on a skill, you can always use take 10 on a skill? Thats rubbish. If that were the case skills would come with "can i take 10 on this".

Strawman. I haven't said that. You could not take 10 to find the goblin that is sniping you, and keeps hiding *during* combat. But there's nothing precluding you to find goblins that aren't trying to attack you (or aren't trying to attack you yet, because haven't seen or heared you yet). And that's done before the initiative roll.


thorin001 wrote:


And what is your justification for that denial? You cannot be distracted by what you are unaware of.

You can be in immediate danger from things you are not aware of.

Quote:
Oh, and there is a difference between strawmen and reductio ad absurdum. Those whose arguments have been debunked by reductio usually claim to be the victims of strawmen.

My position: You cannot take 10 to roll perception to spot an ambush

The argument is against: You cannot take 10 to roll perception ever.

Strawman.

And reductio ad absurdum is an incredibly weak argument to start with, doubly so in a role playing game which undoubtedly has some absurd results like the peasant railgun, the kobold FTL mag lev system, and the worlds deadliest bag of rats.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gustavo wrote:
hat we haven't seen, yet, is anything that says us that you *can't* roll to find a hiding goblin *until* the start of combat

Its on the list. quoted at the start. It has numbers telling you what order things happen in. When the goblin is close enough for the perception roll is the definition of "the start of combat"- even if you decide to sneak away or parley. You're close enough that who is exactly where, doing exactly what, in exactly what order matters.

You're treating everything like zero time and then wondering why nothing can happen.

That list doesn't say when perception and hide checks are done, or that skills can't be used before initiative. You are shoehorning the perception roll after the initaitve roll because you want to, not because it's on the list. You could roll for perception to notice someone hiding nearby, no combat yet. You find a child. Then you roll sense motive, opposed by the child's bluff, no combat yet. You realize he's not what he seems to be, he's a goblin with a disguise hat, who is trying to hide himself and save his life, no combat yet. You decide to play it up, and you bluff yourself as if you haven't seen him yet, to later follow him to his lair, no combat yet. You fail your bluff check, the goblin notices you have seen him, and THEN decides to attack you. NOW you roll initiative, and there's combat.

I laugh at the idea that a unarmed goblin, hiding inside a different room, behind a closed door, 100' away, is a inmediate threat to my character just because I'm perceptive enough to find his pathetic ambush long before he even starts it.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gustavo wrote:
hat we haven't seen, yet, is anything that says us that you *can't* roll to find a hiding goblin *until* the start of combat

Its on the list. quoted at the start. It has numbers telling you what order things happen in. When the goblin is close enough for the perception roll is the definition of "the start of combat"- even if you decide to sneak away or parley. You're close enough that who is exactly where, doing exactly what, in exactly what order matters.

You're treating everything like zero time and then wondering why nothing can happen.

You spelt it wrong, it's called The List (tm) that inviolate section of the rules which is contradicted by several other rules that have been pointed out to you as well as a dev post which specifically provides a different order of perception and initiative.

And once again, what the hell does combat have to do with spotting a goblin ambush from 300' away? When does the surprise round happen? When nobody is close enough to actually do anything?


BigNorseWolf wrote:


My position: You cannot take 10 to roll perception to spot an ambush

Even from 300' away when you are in no immediate danger?

Preposterous.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
But there's nothing precluding you to find goblins that aren't trying to attack you (or aren't trying to attack you yet, because haven't seen or heared you yet). And that's done before the initiative roll.

1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.

2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.

That's the perception check. That happens after initiative.

If you find that silly, this is a system where a 12 ounce bat can judo flip a 12 ton dragon. (and if 20 of them try one of them is almost guaranteed to succeed...)

Goblins getting the drop on someone and stuff happening at the worst possible time is hardly unrealistic for this system.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
But there's nothing precluding you to find goblins that aren't trying to attack you (or aren't trying to attack you yet, because haven't seen or heared you yet). And that's done before the initiative roll.

1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.

2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.

That's the perception check. That happens after initiative.

If you find that silly, this is a system where a 12 ounce bat can judo flip a 12 ton dragon. (and if 20 of them try one of them is almost guaranteed to succeed...)

Dude, it's extremely dishonest of you to post 'the list' and not post the several other rules that have already been quoted to you which contradict that order.

Really dishonest. As in you should be ashamed level of dishonest.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
But there's nothing precluding you to find goblins that aren't trying to attack you (or aren't trying to attack you yet, because haven't seen or heared you yet). And that's done before the initiative roll.

1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.

2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.

That's the perception check. That happens after initiative.

If you find that silly, this is a system where a 12 ounce bat can judo flip a 12 ton dragon. (and if 20 of them try one of them is almost guaranteed to succeed...)

I don't see how having perception rolls at the begin of combat (or in round 6, after 5 succesful snipings from the goblin) precludes to have perception rolls before combat begins.


Gustavo wrote:
I don't see how having perception rolls at the begin of combat (or in round 6, after 5 succesful snipings from the goblin) precludes to have perception rolls before combat begins.

That would be determining which characters are aware of their opponents and then rolling initiative.


You do realize that 'the list' doesn't actually say roll perception after initiative. It says 'determine which characters are aware of each other', which could easily mean use the results of perception checks that were rolled before initiative.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


My position: You cannot take 10 to roll perception to spot an ambush

The argument is against: You cannot take 10 to roll perception ever.

Strawman.

Oddly enough, you have strawman'd your argument of strawman. Their argument was in response to you saying they needed a citation to claim you could roll perception before combat.

Reducto ad absurdum is an important tool for RPG rule decisions. Peasant railgun fails a reducto ad absurdum, so we discard it as a sensible rules interpretation (it also doesn't work RAW anyway but that's a separate issue). Pathfinder, even in PFS, practically relies on GMs realising some intepretation scenarios lead to absurdity and so discounting them.

As for the 'roll perception after surprise round': in this case you should start combat as soon as there is the possibility to notice the ambushing foes (likely many hundreds of feet away) or else you are effectively denying them take 10 AND the possibility to roll. Something tells me you are not giving them perception checks until the enemies are effectively already upon them.

It's also ignoring the rules passage cited above multiple times, but I assume you interpret that differently to conform to your argument here.

*edit*

To me that list may imply you should get a d20 perception roll at the start of combat even if you were taking 10 earlier. It does not in any way imply you cannot be taking 10 before the combat begins and thus potentially spot a dangerous encounter before initiative is rolled.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gustavo wrote:
I don't see how having perception rolls at the begin of combat (or in round 6, after 5 succesful snipings from the goblin) precludes to have perception rolls before combat begins.
That would be determining which characters are aware of their opponents and then rolling initiative.

No, that would be being coherent with how the game itself works out of combat (ie: you roll perception to find things, even when you aren't fighting them. I gave a few examples, that you haven't quoted so far, for unkown reasons). You can roll for perception to find the goblin who is trying to hide and flee, or your son who is playing hide-and-seek with you, so you can roll for perception against the goblin who is ambushing you (both if the goblin is aware of you, or if he isn't yet)

THEN when combat starts, you determine who is aware of who. That's made with different methods, that include (but is not reduced to) a perception roll in that moment. Sometimes you haven't rolled for perception until the combat begins, or nobody is trying to hide, and awarness is determined by other means (like line of sight).

Example:

I'm in the forest, hiding myself, and hunting goblins. There are goblins hiding out there, trying to flee. There's also a bugbear, who is stalking me, but haven't find me yet. There's also a couple of dread wraiths behind a wall, in the area of effect of a silence spell, and an ogre who is standing in the middle of the road, sleeping. There's no combat yet. I roll hide and perception, and so do the goblins and the bugbear. I roll high enough stealth that the bugbear can't see me. I can see the goblins, but not the bugbear, and the goblins can't see me. I choose not to attack the goblins, because I want to follow them to their lair. There's no combat yet. When I'm getting closer to the goblins, an Alarm spell goes off, awakening the dread wraiths. The alarm spell also teleports there a wizard, that has some kind of contingency spell keyed to that alarm. He teleports to a random point near the middle of the map.

The GM calls for a combat round, and initiative is rolled.
I'm already aware of the goblins, so I don't need to roll for them. I have line of sight to the ogre, so no perception roll is needed to be aware of him. The Ogre, who was sleeping until now, makes a perception roll to notice me (because I'm stealthy, unlike him). The GM allows for a second perception roll to the bugbear, because the alarm spell might give him a clue about where I am, but I don't get a roll against him yet, as the conditions haven't changed for me. The dread wraiths sense me without rolling, because they have lifesense 60', and I can't roll perception against them, as Silence spell precludes me to hear them, and the wall blocks LoS. he Wizard, who suddenly appeared at the begining of the round, has to check perception against me, the goblins, the bugbear, and maybe the wraiths, if the wall doesn't block LoS from his appearing point. He'll see the Ogre

There you go, "determining awareness" have happened, after rolling initiative. Some of that awareness involved perception rolls, some of it didn't. And it didn't preclude to play the game before the combat started


^^^ yup, only way that makes sense.

Edit: was supposed to be under Blackmane's post, but gustavo is also good. ;)


BNW when the PDT finally rules on this do you think the ruling will support your idea of an enemy that is in no position to harm you counting as being in combat especially since it does not know about you but you know about him.

The 300 foot away example given by another poster will suffice.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gustavo wrote:
I don't see how having perception rolls at the begin of combat (or in round 6, after 5 succesful snipings from the goblin) precludes to have perception rolls before combat begins.
That would be determining which characters are aware of their opponents and then rolling initiative.

No, that would be being coherent with how the game itself works out of combat (ie: you roll perception to find things, even when you aren't fighting them. I gave a few examples, that you haven't quoted so far, for unkown reasons). You can roll for perception to find the goblin who is trying to hide and flee, or your son who is playing hide-and-seek with you, so you can roll for perception against the goblin who is ambushing you (both if the goblin is aware of you, or if he isn't yet)

THEN when combat starts, you determine who is aware of who. That's made with different methods, that include (but is not reduced to) a perception roll in that moment. Sometimes you haven't rolled for perception until the combat begins, or nobody is trying to hide, and awarness is determined by other means (like line of sight).

Example:

I'm in the forest, hiding myself, and hunting goblins. There are goblins hiding out there, trying to flee. There's also a bugbear, who is stalking me, but haven't find me yet. There's also a couple of dread wraiths behind a wall, in the area of effect of a silence spell, and an ogre who is standing in the middle of the road, sleeping. There's no combat yet. I roll hide and perception, and so do the goblins and the bugbear. I roll high enough stealth that the bugbear can't see me. I can see the goblins, but not the bugbear, and the goblins can't see me. I choose not to attack the goblins, because I want to follow them to their lair. There's no combat yet. When I'm getting closer to the goblins, an Alarm spell goes off, awakening the dread wraiths. The alarm spell also teleports there a wizard, that has some kind of contingency spell keyed to that alarm....

Except that you also have awareness happening before combat. So all you are trying to do is create an artificial distinction so as to disallow take 10.

Of course it is possible for perception to become relevant after the start of combat. But that is only when additional parties join the ongoing combat.


wraithstrike wrote:

BNW when the PDT finally rules on this do you think the ruling will support your idea of an enemy that is in no position to harm you counting as being in combat especially since it does not know about you but you know about him.

The 300 foot away example given by another poster will suffice.

Based on some recent decisions it is a distinct possibility.


thorin001 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

BNW when the PDT finally rules on this do you think the ruling will support your idea of an enemy that is in no position to harm you counting as being in combat especially since it does not know about you but you know about him.

The 300 foot away example given by another poster will suffice.

Based on some recent decisions it is a distinct possibility.

I don't know why people strongly think the rules work either way.

This discussion combines three things
a)Perception checks
b)Taking 10
c)Initiative

These are all some of the most weakly explained rules elements in the entire Pathfinder rules system. Coming up with a "RAW" answer for how they interact is basically impossible. The FAQ for this (assuming we get one) is going to be a coin flip.


The take 10 rules only weakness is not giving clear examples beyond combat. Initiative is really easy. I dont see the issue there. Perception checks do need a rewrite but normally outside of interaction with stealth not many issues come up.

Since perception is supposed to be getting errata or an FAQ anyway I see no reason why this would not get answered.


As far as the rules working I would with this much disagreement they are not working (clear), but that is why I made this FAQ.


wraithstrike wrote:

BNW when the PDT finally rules on this do you think the ruling will support your idea of an enemy that is in no position to harm you counting as being in combat especially since it does not know about you but you know about him.

The 300 foot away example given by another poster will suffice.

I don't think they're going to get around to all of the corner cases and absurd examples where rai is unweildy that are being brought up in favor of more realistic examples that refuse to answer the question of how on earth one is not in immediate danger from an ambushing monster. Line of sight and the environment chapters encounter distances force typical combats into much closer ranges. You do not make rules just for corner cases and ignore the meat and potatoes of play.


Blakmane wrote:


Oddly enough, you have strawman'd your argument of strawman. Their argument was in response to you saying they needed a citation to claim you could roll perception before combat.

to spot an ambush. Thats the part that he left out. Thats the part that you just left out

Quote:
Pathfinder, even in PFS, practically relies on GMs realising some intepretation scenarios lead to absurdity and so discounting them.

Most ideas taken to an extreme will. Doubly so in rpgs.

We are uncertain where particles are, because when we measure them we move.

You are made up of particles.

So we're uncertain whether you're on earth or on pluto.

Quote:
As for the 'roll perception after surprise round': in this case you should start combat as soon as there is the possibility to notice the ambushing foes (likely many hundreds of feet away) or else you are effectively denying them take 10 AND the possibility to roll. Something tells me you are not giving them perception checks until the enemies are effectively already upon them.

I am not denying them the possibility of a roll.

That has been argued, corrected, and argued again. Repeatedly.

Quote:
It's also ignoring the rules passage cited above multiple times, but I assume you interpret that differently to conform to your argument here.

Start is not a zero time. Here it would be defined as "before the first person gets to act". Before the first person acts you determine init. Before the first person acts you determine awareness (95% of the time with a perception check)

Thats when you determine init, thats when you determine who's aware of who- which is usually the perception check. People lining up at the start line is the start of the race. The first 500 feet of the new york city marathon is also at the start of the race. If someone tells me that it HAS to be when the starting pistol is fired but before the sound goes anywhere I know they're trying to pedantically make things not work.

The rules as I read them work just fine. They work according to raw. They work fairly and like ANY other rule in the game will be absurd if taken to extremes and likely skipped or handwaived under some circumstances.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

BNW when the PDT finally rules on this do you think the ruling will support your idea of an enemy that is in no position to harm you counting as being in combat especially since it does not know about you but you know about him.

The 300 foot away example given by another poster will suffice.

I don't think they're going to get around to all of the corner cases and absurd examples where rai is unweildy that are being brought up in favor of more realistic examples that refuse to answer the question of how on earth one is not in immediate danger from an ambushing monster. Line of sight and the environment chapters encounter distances force typical combats into much closer ranges. You do not make rules just for corner cases and ignore the meat and potatoes of play.

I am just talking about the things I asked about in the opening statement. While we have used abnormal but possible examples such as from "300 feet" away, you can still detect a potential ambush before they notice you and/or become a threat. As an example a dire tiger lying in wait for a meal will not have a ranged weapon, and you can see one well before you are in ranged of its pounce.

edit: Answering the question as the PDT without making any assumption about whether or not the ambusher is in attack range seems to be easy. They can then add an "if or" statement after that to give a general idea.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
The rules as I read them work just fine. They work according to raw.

No they don't. They don't work when the enemy can't/didn't see me, and I have declared to the GM that I will be taking 10 the entire time.

I can't really be in combat if neither of us does not know the other person is there, but by your logic combat begins because we "might" notice each other.

This is not a time-traveling loop where init is rolled in advance of the perception check if I notice someone, but it is not rolled in advance of the perception check if I never notice them.

If you are saying to roll init in advance if there is the slightest possibility of anyone being noticed then I did not see you state that, not that I think the PDT team will go with that either.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:

It seems that different people have different ideas on what counts as immediate dangers and distractions that would make taking 10 not possible. I understand that every possible case can not be listed, but I think the following list can be answered and if possible we would like a good rule of thumb to follow.

Do the following prevent taking 10 while not in combat?

Swimming

climbing

Perception (to locate a trap)

Perception (reactive check to locate hiding enemy)

Disable device (disarm a trap)

You can take 10 on all those check out of combat, you can't take 10 with other skills while doing those action.

I.e. you can take 10 to climb a mountain but wile you are climbing you can't 10 with your perception check. To do that you need to stop in a reasonably safe position.


Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

It seems that different people have different ideas on what counts as immediate dangers and distractions that would make taking 10 not possible. I understand that every possible case can not be listed, but I think the following list can be answered and if possible we would like a good rule of thumb to follow.

Do the following prevent taking 10 while not in combat?

Swimming

climbing

Perception (to locate a trap)

Perception (reactive check to locate hiding enemy)

Disable device (disarm a trap)

You can take 10 on all those check out of combat, you can't take 10 with other skills while doing those action.

I.e. you can take 10 to climb a mountain but wile you are climbing you can't 10 with your perception check. To do that you need to stop in a reasonably safe position.

I am asking because other take 10 threads have stated that you can't take 10 for activies where failure would cause bad things to happen. I have seen it enough that I know it is a common mistake so I figured an FAQ might be needed.

Also, why can't I take 10 on perception while climbing?

If the idea is that I am not in a safe location why would be allowed to take 10 on climbing?

PS: I had not thought of it until you brought it up, but it is a good thing to bring up when the FAQ comes around unless someone can provide an answer before then.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Because taking 10 is something the PLAYER does. Not something the character does. Whether the character knows about the teeth that climb is irrelevant.

Taking 10 is the game system we use to show that a character id dedicating a normal level of attention to a task. So it is not something that the player is doing. It is the character that is dedicating a normal level of effort and attention to a single task.

R.L. example: you drive a car. You aren't talking to the telephone or with the girls on your side, you aren't drunk, you aren't preparing mental notes for the next meeting. You are taking 10 with your driver skill check.

But driving is a dangerous thing. People die every day while driving.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

It seems that different people have different ideas on what counts as immediate dangers and distractions that would make taking 10 not possible. I understand that every possible case can not be listed, but I think the following list can be answered and if possible we would like a good rule of thumb to follow.

Do the following prevent taking 10 while not in combat?

Swimming

climbing

Perception (to locate a trap)

Perception (reactive check to locate hiding enemy)

Disable device (disarm a trap)

You can take 10 on all those check out of combat, you can't take 10 with other skills while doing those action.

I.e. you can take 10 to climb a mountain but wile you are climbing you can't 10 with your perception check. To do that you need to stop in a reasonably safe position.

I am asking because other take 10 threads have stated that you can't take 10 for activies where failure would cause bad things to happen. I have seen it enough that I know it is a common mistake so I figured an FAQ might be needed.

Also, why can't I take 10 on perception while climbing?

If the idea is that I am not in a safe location why would be allowed to take 10 on climbing?

PS: I had not thought of it until you brought it up, but it is a good thing to bring up when the FAQ comes around unless someone can provide an answer before then.

You can't take 10 because you are already doing another action and taking 10 doing it.

That count as a distraction for different actions.

You need to reach a safe position because if you are in a dangerous position you are still climbing. As long as you are making climbing checks you can't take 10 with the perception check unless you decide that your main activity is to do the perception checks. And at that point you take 10 with the perception check and roll the d20 for the climbing check.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
...

You're talking past everyone again. Maybe I should keep it to a simple question:

Where do you place the minis at the beginning of combat, when the first perception check to spot an ambush is rolled? Are the ambushers at max distance (when a 20 could concievably spot them) or are they right next to their opponents?

Because if it's the latter, and you are not giving your players perception checks before the ambush is 'sprung', you're effectively robbing them of both a take 10 AND a normal perception roll.


Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

It seems that different people have different ideas on what counts as immediate dangers and distractions that would make taking 10 not possible. I understand that every possible case can not be listed, but I think the following list can be answered and if possible we would like a good rule of thumb to follow.

Do the following prevent taking 10 while not in combat?

Swimming

climbing

Perception (to locate a trap)

Perception (reactive check to locate hiding enemy)

Disable device (disarm a trap)

You can take 10 on all those check out of combat, you can't take 10 with other skills while doing those action.

I.e. you can take 10 to climb a mountain but wile you are climbing you can't 10 with your perception check. To do that you need to stop in a reasonably safe position.

I am asking because other take 10 threads have stated that you can't take 10 for activies where failure would cause bad things to happen. I have seen it enough that I know it is a common mistake so I figured an FAQ might be needed.

Also, why can't I take 10 on perception while climbing?

If the idea is that I am not in a safe location why would be allowed to take 10 on climbing?

PS: I had not thought of it until you brought it up, but it is a good thing to bring up when the FAQ comes around unless someone can provide an answer before then.

You can't take 10 because you are already doing another action and taking 10 doing it.

That count as a distraction for different actions.

You need to reach a safe position because if you are in a dangerous position you are still climbing. As long as you are making climbing checks you can't take 10 with the perception check unless you decide that your main activity is to do the perception checks. And at that point you take 10 with the perception check and roll the d20 for the climbing check.

I think this will have to be called out officially also, since it is not in the book.

I agree with you since your focus is on the other skill so that would count as being distracted unless you stopped your climb, but I am sure some will argue against it.


I don't agree. I can walk and chew gum at the same time, both with 'take 10' skill checks.

There might be some skill checks that are distracting, but it is not a general rule that all are, nor is that supported in any RAW that I've seen. For example, taking 10 with perception and taking 10 with a knowledge check of that creature I just perceived would be good examples of two 'take 10' checks that are perfectly acceptable together.

Alo this:

Quote:

You can't take 10 because you are already doing another action and taking 10 doing it.

That count as a distraction for different actions.

Doesn't apply to either passive perception or knowledge checks, those aren't actions.


_Ozy_ wrote:

I don't agree. I can walk and chew gum at the same time, both with 'take 10' skill checks.

There might be some skill checks that are distracting, but it is not a general rule that all are, nor is that supported in any RAW that I've seen. For example, taking 10 with perception and taking 10 with a knowledge check of that creature I just perceived would be good examples of two 'take 10' checks that are perfectly acceptable together.

Alo this:

Quote:

You can't take 10 because you are already doing another action and taking 10 doing it.

That count as a distraction for different actions.
Doesn't apply to either passive perception or knowledge checks, those aren't actions.

You have a point. I guess you can look at it as either you are distracted or you are not. So if you are not distracted then you cane take 10.

I think DR was saying that since you are focused on climbing you can't just look around, but then again reactive checks are made all the time just to see the mountain you are climbing. Once again a different opinion of distracting is causing an issue. Also if you can take 10 while climbing it could be argued that is is not really that distracting so you are free to also take 10 on perception checks. There are really are no rules saying that climbing or swimming are a distraction.

When this is answered I will be sure to bring it up.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

I don't agree. I can walk and chew gum at the same time, both with 'take 10' skill checks.

There might be some skill checks that are distracting, but it is not a general rule that all are, nor is that supported in any RAW that I've seen. For example, taking 10 with perception and taking 10 with a knowledge check of that creature I just perceived would be good examples of two 'take 10' checks that are perfectly acceptable together.

Alo this:

Quote:

You can't take 10 because you are already doing another action and taking 10 doing it.

That count as a distraction for different actions.
Doesn't apply to either passive perception or knowledge checks, those aren't actions.

You have a point. I guess you can look at it as either you are distracted or you are not. So if you are not distracted then you cane take 10.

I think DR was saying that since you are focused on climbing you can't just look around, but then again reactive checks are made all the time just to see the mountain you are climbing. Once again a different opinion of distracting is causing an issue. Also if you can take 10 while climbing it could be argued that is is not really that distracting so you are free to also take 10 on perception checks. There are really are no rules saying that climbing or swimming are a distraction.

When this is answered I will be sure to bring it up.

It is very much in the rulebook:

PRD wrote:
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.

Doing something different count as a distraction.

The task you are doing wouldn't count as a distraction for itself, but it will count as a distraction for other tasks. If you are concentrating on something you are distracted when resolving unrelated skill checks.


But it is not clearly defined what counts as distraction. Does climbing count? Swimming? Walking? Running? Bad weather?

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