Paladins and gods


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Paladins have to be Lawful Good RAW. Does that mean gods that are not lawful Good dont have paladins? How is that supposed to work? Its never made sense to me that say a Paladin who follows Sarenrae would be lawful good when the god is neutral good.

Or does the paladin devote himself to following the rules of that god, in fact becoming lawful good as far as the tenets of the church of Sarenrae?

That just being an example, the same could be asked of Pharasma or does Pharasma not have Paladins?

My main reason for asking is we're running a Kingmaker game in the seven kingdoms and the area is really NOT lawful good in any way, and playing what the DM thinks is a traditional paladin will get me killed quickly as fighting everything bad would indeed be VERY bad as there are criminals we're having to ally ourselves with just to stay alive, but at the same time, a paladin would be incredibly useful to have in the game. Im trying to figure out a way to get that without having to be lawful stupid because tyhats what the class is "supposed" to be -.-


Be prepared for a flame war... Paladin alignment threads comes 14 on a dozen on the forum...

My take:

The lawful part of the paladins LG means he follows his code of conduct to the letter. His code of conduct is heavily influenced by his deitys tenements...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
buddahcjcc wrote:

Paladins have to be Lawful Good RAW. Does that mean gods that are not lawful Good dont have paladins? How is that supposed to work? Its never made sense to me that say a Paladin who follows Sarenrae would be lawful good when the god is neutral good.

One step rule is in force. Sarenrae can certainly have lawful good followers.


I believe in Golarion they go with the one step rule for deity alignment, so NG Sarenrae has paladins but N Pharasma does not. While Sarenrae is all about good, her paladins hold themselves to a strict lawful code that is not necessary for other followers of Sarenrae.

Talk to your DM about how he handles LG, the paladin code, and what constitutes an evil act, as those are the big trips for a paladin to fall and over which there can be a lot of disagreement which could lead to resentment.


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Clerics are allowed to be one step away from their deity's personal alignment. This same allowance is made for paladins, and so Paladins in most settings can be associated with Lawful Good, Neutral Good, or Lawful Neutral gods, but are always Lawful Good themselves. Depending on setting, a Paladin might not get their powers from a god at all, but from the ideals of Law and Good, like divine characters based on an ideal would.

A paladin avoids working with characters that consistently offend her moral code, but no, you are not obligated to resort to violence against any non-good character you encounter. They gave you Diplomacy as a class skill for a REASON. A paladin may associate with neutral or even evil characters if doing so serves the greater good, although a paladin should regularly seek guidance/atonement from their faith if the alliance is troubling morally, and is obligated to immediately end the alliance when it is doing more harm than good.

A paladin working with local criminals for a noble cause and trying to reform them into a force for good is kosher. Just don't stand for people trying to perform overtly evil acts in your presence, and do this with words whenever possible rather than forcing unnecessary fights. Paladins as a whole consider violence a last resort except when pitted against beings of pure evil like demons, and should generally try to reason with and lead their morally subpar companions to the light rather than break out the smites.


Yep, he one step rule works here. Although a setting could also sidestep this rule with an exception (CG Sune having paladins in FR for instance)

Basically Paladins have to be within one step, like a cleric does. As such, LG, LN and NG are all allowed by RAW as far as I recall. Pharasma would not have them but I myself would allow them. So ask your GM

There are some good options for king maker, have you though of a bow based paladin of Erastil?


i could personally see even LG paladins working for cayden himself--acting as the sort of 'bouncer' (freedom is great and should be worked towards, until that freedom infringes upon others--then you get the ol' bum rush) or 'bartender' (notes the troubles of those they meet and offers advice, stops revelers from sinking into excess and making an ass of themselves, and is ready with a swift shot when someone tells them to 'just f@%& me up')-types.

they hold themselves to a higher standard than the revelers they associate with (both by choice and by employment), but they're all part of the same establishment.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
AndIMustMask wrote:

i could personally see even LG paladins working for cayden himself--acting as the sort of 'bouncer' (freedom is great and should be worked towards, until that freedom infringes upon others--then you get the ol' bum rush) or 'bartender' (notes the troubles of those they meet and offers advice, stops revelers from sinking into excess and making an ass of themselves, and is ready with a swift shot when someone tells them to 'just f#*@ me up')-types.

they hold themselves to a higher standard than the revelers they associate with (both by choice and by employment), but they're all part of the same establishment.

Instead of bending plausibility to that extent, for Caydean, I'd simply use WarPriests or Inquisitors.


Yeah if you are gonna bend it that far, just remove the LG only restriction from your game.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Yeah if you are gonna bend it that far, just remove the LG only restriction from your game.

i usually do, in fact--paladins are limited to 'any good' alignment, and antipaladins are limited to 'any evil'. opens up lots of great heroes and villains without the worry of being shoehorned into lawful stupid or chaotic stupid (under immediate threat of falling).


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

From Inner Sea Gods, Abadar (LN), Sarenrae (NG) and Shelyn (NG) are all non-LG deities with Paladins.

The Anti-paladin deities are Calistra(CG), Lamashtu (CE), Norgorber (NE), Rovagug (CE) and Urgathoa (NE).


Bwang wrote:

From Inner Sea Gods, Abadar (LN), Sarenrae (NG) and Shelyn (NG) are all non-LG deities with Paladins.

The Anti-paladin deities are Calistra(CG), Lamashtu (CE), Norgorber (NE), Rovagug (CE) and Urgathoa (NE).

feels bad to be asmodeus. and antipaladins arent allowed to be smart-evil or suddenly everyone starts shouting 'lawful lawful down the hole you go'


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Calistra is CN


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Paladins don't have to worship gods. They get there powers from the alignment of lawful Good it's self.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bwang wrote:

From Inner Sea Gods, Abadar (LN), Sarenrae (NG) and Shelyn (NG) are all non-LG deities with Paladins.

The Anti-paladin deities are Calistra(CG), Lamashtu (CE), Norgorber (NE), Rovagug (CE) and Urgathoa (NE).

That does't make sense unless Calistria is actually Chaotic Neutral. Chaotic Evil is two steps away from Chaotic Good.


Calistria IS Chaotic Neutral.


AndIMustMask wrote:
i usually do, in fact--paladins are limited to 'any good' alignment, and antipaladins are limited to 'any evil'. opens up lots of great heroes and villains without the worry of being shoehorned into lawful stupid or chaotic stupid (under immediate threat of falling).

I used to be a Paladins are LG only type of guy. Over the last two years or so I have moved to paladins can be any alignment kinda guy. In PF that may take a small bit of reworking but I see zero reason why it should be limited to LG

xavier c wrote:
Paladins don't have to worship gods. They get there powers from the alignment of lawful Good it's self.

Unless this has changed over the last few year IIRC in golarion they do.

Shadow Lodge

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seekerofshadowlight wrote:
xavier c wrote:
Paladins don't have to worship gods. They get there powers from the alignment of lawful Good it's self.
Unless this has changed over the last few year IIRC in golarion they do.

False.

Divine Spells wrote:
Clerics, druids, experienced paladins and rangers, inquisitors, oracles, the adept NPC class, the hunter hybrid class, the shaman hybrid class, and the warpriest hybrid class cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells, and the divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. Divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less flashy, destructive, and disruptive than arcane spells.

PFS claims that Golarion is different...

PFS Guide pg 10 wrote:
Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of the order of the star, and samurai of the order of the star must choose a deity as all classes in Golarion that receive spells and abilities from a specific divine source receive their powers from a deity.

However the Golarion Guy disagrees:

James Jacobs wrote:

Of all the classes in Golarion... only clerics MUST have a patron deity, since only clerics get their spells from a patron deity.

Other divine spellcasters CAN have patron deities, and in some cases (inquisitors and paladins) they USUALLY have patron deities, but that's not always the case.

I'm not sure where and when I said all paladins need deities, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't and that's a misquote.

...which leads me to firmly file "Paladins must have deities" under "PFS specific rule."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
xavier c wrote:
Calistria IS Chaotic Neutral.

I've always wondered how are elves considered a "good" race if she's the main diety.


LazarX wrote:
xavier c wrote:
Calistria IS Chaotic Neutral.
I've always wondered how are elves considered a "good" race if she's the main diety.

I've never really thought of elves as a "good" race so much as a "Chaotic" race. Likewise for dwarves as "lawful."


Weirdo wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
xavier c wrote:
Paladins don't have to worship gods. They get there powers from the alignment of lawful Good it's self.
Unless this has changed over the last few year IIRC in golarion they do.

False.

As I said, unless this has changed. I always found it kinda silly to have god based classes without gods. Either gods are real and grants those powers or they have zero to do with them.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
xavier c wrote:
Paladins don't have to worship gods. They get there powers from the alignment of lawful Good it's self.
Unless this has changed over the last few year IIRC in golarion they do.

False.

As I said, unless this has changed. I always found it kinda silly to have god based classes without gods. Either gods are real and grants those powers or they have zero to do with them.

Why can't Gods be both real and not be required? Not every Paladin walks the same path. Even those who belong to the same religion have different interpretations on what their faith demands of them. For some Paladins it's a all about mind over matter similar to being a Monk. By becoming the embodiment of their personal Code of Honor they're able to transcend the bounds of normal folk and kindle a spark of the divine within themselves.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Blackpowder Witch wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
xavier c wrote:
Paladins don't have to worship gods. They get there powers from the alignment of lawful Good it's self.
Unless this has changed over the last few year IIRC in golarion they do.

False.

As I said, unless this has changed. I always found it kinda silly to have god based classes without gods. Either gods are real and grants those powers or they have zero to do with them.
Why can't Gods be both real and not be required? Not every Paladin walks the same path. Even those who belong to the same religion have different interpretations on what their faith demands of them. For some Paladins it's a all about mind over matter similar to being a Monk. By becoming the embodiment of their personal Code of Honor they're able to transcend the bounds of normal folk and kindle a spark of the divine within themselves.

Because it's the SETTING that mandates that all divine casters are bound to a diety, either through direct worship, or more indirectly through association with a mystery.


LazarX wrote:
Because it's the SETTING that mandates that all divine casters are bound to a diety, either through direct worship, or more indirectly through association with a mystery.

Actually, I believe it was by said by James Jacob said that only Clerics need a divine patron in Gloraion. Let me see if I can dig up the post.


Blackpowder Witch wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Because it's the SETTING that mandates that all divine casters are bound to a diety, either through direct worship, or more indirectly through association with a mystery.
Actually, I believe it was by said by James Jacob said that only Clerics need a divine patron in Gloraion. Let me see if I can dig up the post.

Six posts above yours.


bookrat wrote:
Six posts above yours.

Ah thankies, that saves me some trouble. Especially since the posts I was thinking about was actually referring to Clerics and Pantheism. >.<


seekerofshadowlight wrote:


I always found it kinda silly to have god based classes without gods. Either gods are real and grants those powers or they have zero to do with them.
I agree with this for the most part. Divine magic comes from the gods, given "divine" litterally means
Merriam Webster wrote:
related to or coming from God or a god

.

Now, that doesn't mean it has to be a direct connection.

Clerics worship a specific god, and their power comes directly from that god.

Oracles and Paladins probably worship a god, and their powers most likely come from that god, but even without a direct relationship to one god, their power still comes from the gods. For Oracles, it is any, or even all, gods related to their Mystery. For Paladins, it is all the gods of Law and Good (LG, NG, and LN gods; collectively).

Druids would be in a similar situation, but with gods of the forces of nature.

But that is just my own take on it.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
xavier c wrote:
Paladins don't have to worship gods. They get there powers from the alignment of lawful Good it's self.
Unless this has changed over the last few year IIRC in golarion they do.

False.

As I said, unless this has changed. I always found it kinda silly to have god based classes without gods. Either gods are real and grants those powers or they have zero to do with them.

I played a paladin with no diety ties once... did NOT mean he didn't get his powers from a deity (or three). My story was that the gods look down, saw what he was doing... Saw that the values and morals he was pushing were the same as theirs and chose to power him up.

No active worship required. They were above such pettiness. Had he turned from his (and their) path... they would have stopped powering him.

So it doesn't really say anywhere that there has to be any act of worship or anything RAW, Nothing to really stop you from going the 'Oracle' route of 'I have no idea where I get these powers...'


Blackpowder Witch wrote:


Why can't Gods be both real and not be required? Not every Paladin walks the same path. Even those who belong to the same religion have different interpretations on what their faith demands of them. For some Paladins it's a all about mind over matter similar to being a Monk. By becoming the embodiment of their personal Code of Honor they're able to transcend the bounds of normal folk and kindle a spark of the divine within themselves.

Because it makes no sense at all. If the divan comes from god, it comes from gods. It does or it does not. It just to me makes no sense that you need gods and you do not need them.


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seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Blackpowder Witch wrote:


Why can't Gods be both real and not be required? Not every Paladin walks the same path. Even those who belong to the same religion have different interpretations on what their faith demands of them. For some Paladins it's a all about mind over matter similar to being a Monk. By becoming the embodiment of their personal Code of Honor they're able to transcend the bounds of normal folk and kindle a spark of the divine within themselves.

Because it makes no sense at all. If the divan comes from god, it comes from gods. It does or it does not. It just to me makes no sense that you need gods and you do not need them.

In Golarion, Paladins do not need a deity, but having a patron to guide their actions and juice them up certainly makes things a lot easier.

Now we enter into the Philosophy of Belief and it's relationship with Religion. Many cultures hold to the notion that believing in something is enough to give it power. In several faith structures for example, it's the belief in deities that gives them their power and the more worshipers a deity has, the more mojo it has at it's disposal. A Paladin who believes strongly enough in themselves and in their cause could be able to generate a tiny spark of divinity within themselves. This belief creates a teeny godhead or micro Domain of LG that fuels their abilities. Quite frankly the determination required to do something like that borders on the mentally insane, which is why it's an option that only a few could use to become a Paladin. For most people it would easier to rely upon the faith and tenets provided by a serving higher power to enter Paladinhood.

*Note, this isn't necessarily really how Golarion works but it could provide the logical explanation for how it's possible.


Druids are divine casters and don't need gods. Same with Inquisitors (I think there are House Thrune inquisitors or something with no god) and Paladins. Divine magic can be deific, but it doesn't mean it has to come from worship of a single god. It could come from a general good energy of the pantheon and the cosmos. Or whatever.


Blackpowder Witch wrote:


In Golarion, Paladins do not need a deity, but having a patron to guide their actions and juice them up certainly makes things a lot easier.

Now we enter into the Philosophy of Belief and it's relationship with Religion. Many cultures hold to the notion that believing in something is enough to give it power. In several faith structures for example, it's the belief in deities that gives them their power and the more worshipers a deity has, the more mojo it has at it's disposal. A Paladin who believes strongly enough in themselves and in their cause could be able to generate a tiny spark of divinity within themselves. This belief creates a teeny godhead or micro Domain of LG that fuels their abilities. Quite frankly the determination required to do something like that borders on the mentally insane, which is why it's an option that only a few could use to become a Paladin. For most people it would easier to rely upon the faith and tenets provided by a serving higher power to enter Paladinhood.

*Note, this isn't necessarily really how Golarion works but it could provide the logical explanation for how it's possible.

I was not speaking about the setting, just my take. I find the concept of needing it for x class but not for Y class foolish. If a divan caster does not need one, a cleric should not need one. Its a really silly thing to me, you have basically opened the door for godless clerics when you have already shown gods.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
I was not speaking about the setting, just my take. I find the concept of needing it for x class but not for Y class foolish. If a divan caster does not need one, a cleric should not need one. Its a really silly thing to me, you have basically opened the door for godless clerics when you have already shown gods.

If we're talking about pure mechanics and not setting specifics, then even Clerics don't absolutely need a god in Pathfinder. Mechanically a Pathfinder Cleric could be devoted to an ideal such as being the Cleric of New York, the Cleric of Harsh Judgement or, the Cleric of Flames. I find it harder to justify or conceive where a full prepared caster class like a Cleric is getting the power for their spells if not directly from a divine source. On a Cosmic Power Scale, Paladins and to a smaller extent Inquisitors don't really have much umph behind their abilities and also in my opinion they tend to have more of the mental fortitude required to function independently from a deity compared to a Cleric. In contrast to Pallies and Inquisitors I've always viewed Clerics as having more faith in their god's dogma to guide their actions than certainty in their own judgement of what is right.


Indeed, by RAW you do not need a god. Where this fails to me is in a world you have fluffed as the power coming from the gods. Its really hard for me to justify having clerics of a god,in which that god can remove the power and Steve, who is a cleric because he likes figs.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Indeed, by RAW you do not need a god. Where this fails to me is in a world you have fluffed as the power coming from the gods. Its really hard for me to justify having clerics of a god,in which that god can remove the power and Steve, who is a cleric because he likes figs.

The fluff is that the gods are A source of divine power, but not THE only source of divine power. "Divine" and "Arcane" magic are both very nebulous blanket terms that covers a wide range applications that often times makes no sense in the real world. The thing you need to ask yourself is, "Where are the gods getting their power from?". Do they just tap into pre-existing forces, are they fueled by their worshipers, or is simply the belief in some concept enough for them to exists?

Some gods predate mortals and those were shaped my elemental focus, others are mortals who one way or another ascended, and then there are those who were born from concept. Let's take Gorum, the main personification of war for Pathfinder. Fluff-wise Gorum was born during the first battles between Humans and Orcs, but that makes no damn sense at all. People really thought so much about "War" that they spawned some entity that is now capable of imbuing mortals with the power to spread the cause of "War"?

If universal faith in "War" as a concept is has enough force to create a deity like Gorum and the many other gods of war, why couldn't a mortal skip past an intermediaries of deities and tap directly into the divine power pool of "War"?


As I said, that is just me. I myself can not do both in a setting, either Gods grant divine power or they do not. It is not and yes and no to me, its an yes or a no. If Gods grant such power you need a god regardless of class, if they do not, then you need no god.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
As I said, that is just me. I myself can not do both in a setting, either Gods grant divine power or they do not. It is not and yes and no to me, its an yes or a no. If Gods grant such power you need a god regardless of class, if they do not, then you need no god.

Gods still would grant divine power, so it's a yes not a "yes or no". It's just that they aren't the *Only* way to get divine power.


I disagree with that, either you have active gods or you do not. I know its not the only way people look at it, but it is how I view things. You have a word like Eberron where the gods are likely false or do not give a fig, or you have a world where gods are the divined source.

I really dislike the idea of a divine class without a god in worlds like Golarion. I would have no issue with you being a cleric or what have you and have the whole pantheon in place of a single god. But the idea in such a world you do not need gods to access that power simply does notwork for me


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I disagree with that, either you have active gods or you do not. I know its not the only way people look at it, but it is how I view things. You have a word like Eberron where the gods are likely false or do not give a fig, or you have a world where gods are the divined source.

I really dislike the idea of a divine class without a god in worlds like Golarion. I would have no issue with you being a cleric or what have you and have the whole pantheon in place of a single god. But the idea in such a world you do not need gods to access that power simply does notwork for me

Interesting. Question if you don't mind, do you impose something similar for Arcane magic?


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I disagree with that, either you have active gods or you do not. I know its not the only way people look at it, but it is how I view things. You have a word like Eberron where the gods are likely false or do not give a fig, or you have a world where gods are the divined source.

I really dislike the idea of a divine class without a god in worlds like Golarion. I would have no issue with you being a cleric or what have you and have the whole pantheon in place of a single god. But the idea in such a world you do not need gods to access that power simply does notwork for me

While I disagree with such a binary hard line, I do understand where you're coming from and respect your opinion on the matter. I personally have difficulty accepting the categorization of classes based on flavor of magic or alignment.


Not really, Oh I did in one setting I had.With each "flavor" of magic having its own sources and its own ways to access it. Its not something I do really and its not written like that in most settings.


Suma3da wrote:


While I disagree with such a binary hard line, I do understand where you're coming from and respect your opinion on the matter. I've personally have difficulty accepting the categorization of classes based on flavor of magic or alignment.

I can see what you are saying, but to me if your world has active provable gods and you classify something as divan, it ties to the gods. I understand your point of view, I also understand not everyone sees it as I do.


On Golarion there's a Paladin of Milani that last time I checked is a CG goddess. I never understood why was that.

But I remember that any deity independently chooses to allow paladins in their orders. There may be deities one step within LG that cannot have paladins.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Entryhazard wrote:

On Golarion there's a Paladin of Milani that last time I checked is a CG goddess. I never understood why was that.

But I remember that any deity independently chooses to allow paladins in their orders. There may be deities one step within LG that cannot have paladins.

Milani is a bit of an odd duck which got one appearance in an AP and a couple of mentions elsewhere, and I suspect that not everyone who was writing material for Milani was talking to each other.


Yeah Milani seems a bad fit if you are sticking with LG only as she seems more a rule breaker and a bit too free wheeling.


Just my 2cp, I use the Inner Sea Gods book as who grants paladins and antipaladins their power. They must be that alignment and follow the code listed.


While we are talking about it, Abadar paladins may be LN.


Cavall wrote:
While we are talking about it, Abadar paladins may be LN.

where does this come from?


Yeah, I'm looking at Inner Sea Gods right now and I don't see anything allowing Paladins to be anything but LG.


It makes no sense that only Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil deities (or ones close to these alignments) would commission Paladins and Antipaladins (in addition to the problem that it really restricts their variety). In particular, Hell would be very interested in having a dedicated class like this of its own (and Warpriest doesn't really cut it). On the other hand, you'd think that a religion or philosophy commissioning a Holy Warrior wouldn't want to just commission any random worshipper off the street who happened to have the matching alignment, without first demonstrating some steadfastness.

Really, Paladins and Antipaladins should be replaced by a Holy Warrior prestige class whose alignment requirements and specific abilities depend upon the particular religion or philosophy. Hellknight with a few tweaks (mainly to extend its progression) would be a good example of a prestige subclass of this. Some prestige subclasses of this would get their own spellcasting progression (not requiring an existing spellcasting base class) using the Paladin or Antipaladin spell list (or a combination in the case of Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, or Neutral varieties).

I would say the same thing for Inquisitors -- I love the Inquisitor mechanical chassis, and in this case it is by RAW allowed for all religions, but you'd think a religion (or philosophy) would want a demonstration of steadfastness and loyalty before commissioning some random worshipper to be able to go above the normal rules of the faith to become a behind-the-scenes enforcer. So I would say rebuild the Cleric on an Inquisitor chassis with some Warpriest elements (including spell list) replacing some of the Inquisitor-specific stuff(*), and make Inquisitor a prestige class that adds back the Inquisitor-specific stuff for those who prove themselves. Also make a d6 class (with more class abilities other than spellcasting compared to the current powerful but often boring Cleric) for those who want the full 9/9 divine spellcasting. Also do something similar for the Druid.

(*)Detect Alignment, Inquisitor spell list (or Hunter spell list for Nature Inquisitors), Judgment (and its functional increases), Stern Gaze, and Track would be bumped up to the Inquisitor prestige class.

This would pretty much require Prestige Class Archetypes (or even Alternate Prestige Classes).

D&D 3.5th Edition Unearthed Arcana had a Prestige Paladin option, as well as Prestige Bard and Prestige Ranger options, but I never heard of any of these catching on, except for inspiring the Kirthfinder Prestige Paladin (which as written is built for Lawful Good but explicitly mentions the prospect of building versions for other alignments).

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