Worst video game enemies you do not want to fight in Pathfinder


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metal slimes


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The demi-fiend.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Giygas.


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the bottom of the screen in vertical Contra levels


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Chryssalids.


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Gannondorf. OoT version.

Shredder & illusion Shredder. Turtles in time.

Bowser in an inverse helicopter throwing wind-up toy bombs.

Mike Tyson.

The dude you had to fight before Mike Tyson.

Dr Wiley. MM3 version.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Lamontius wrote:
the bottom of the screen in vertical Contra levels

Or the timer in Super Mario Bros.


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Sinistar

"Beware I live!"


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Randarak wrote:

Sinistar

"Beware I live!"

I HUNGER. RUN COWARD! RUN RUN RUN!!

Shadow Lodge

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BigDTBone wrote:
Gannondorf. OoT version.

The Nightmare Blot from Link's Awakening. Can you imagine a shapeshifter of that caliber with the endurance that thing has (seriously, it has like nine forms) getting its "hands" on a few Pathfinder bestiaries? *shudder*


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On that note, the Dopplegangers in Last Story.

The daggum castles and airships of the Super Mario series.

Shadow Lodge

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And sticking to that universe... Bowyer from Legend of the Seven Stars.

What's that? I shot this particular glyph with an arrow? Now you and everyone in your party can't attack/use magic/use items/retreat. No save. Sucks to be you!

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Orthos wrote:

And sticking to that universe... Bowyer from Legend of the Seven Stars.

What's that? I shot this particular glyph with an arrow? Now you and everyone in your party can't attack/use magic/use items/retreat. No save. Sucks to be you!

O_O

/thread

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

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Jiggy wrote:
Giygas.

Giygas would be a pushover, as long as you have a divine caster in your party.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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RainyDayNinja wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Giygas.
Giygas would be a pushover, as long as you have a divine caster in your party.

You're only thinking of the endgame; before you get to that point, there will be several rounds of "You cannot grasp the true form of Giygas' attack!" What Pathfinder group will keep playing after that?

Shadow Lodge

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Jiggy wrote:
Orthos wrote:

And sticking to that universe... Bowyer from Legend of the Seven Stars.

What's that? I shot this particular glyph with an arrow? Now you and everyone in your party can't attack/use magic/use items/retreat. No save. Sucks to be you!

O_O

/thread

A video of the relevant part of the battle for those not familiar with Super Mario RPG.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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Anything completely invulnerable unless you strike a very particular spot, because called shots are an optional rule.


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Those flying medusa heads from Castlevania.
F&&& those guys!

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Cave full of zubats.

GM: What do you do now?
Players: Alright, into the cave we go!
GM: Okay, you get about 10 feet in and a zubat swoops down and attacks! Roll initiative.
Player1: 17.
Player2: 4.
Player3: 12.
Player4: 22.
GM: Okay, player4, you're up.
Player4: I attack it... 18 to hit, for 11 damage.
GM: That drops it! Out of combat. Now what?
Players: I guess we continue into the cave.
GM: Okay, you get about 10 feet further and a zubat swoops down and attacks! Roll initiative.
Player1: 10.
Player2: 9.
Player3: 13.
Player4: 21.
GM: Okay, player4, you're up.
Player4: I attack it... 19 to hit, for 10 damage.
GM: That drops it! Out of combat. Now what?
Players: We continue through the cave.
GM: Okay, you get about 10 feet further and a zubat swoops down and attacks! Roll initiative.
Player1: 5.
Player2: 18.
Player3: 11.
Player4: 28.
GM: Okay, player4, you're up.
Player4: I attack it... 18 to hit, for 12 damage.
GM: That drops it! Out of combat. Now what?
Players: We continue through the cave.
GM: Okay, you get about 10 feet further and a zubat swoops down and attacks! Roll initiative.
Player1: 19.
Player2: 15.
Player3: 10.
Player4: 26.
GM: Okay, player4, you're up.
Player4: I attack it... 20 to hit, for 10 damage.
GM: That drops it! Out of combat. Now what?
Players: We continue through the cave.
GM: Okay, you get about 10 feet further and a zubat swoops down and attacks! Roll initiative.
Player1: 10.
Player2: 9.
Player3: 13.
Player4: 21.
GM: Okay, player4, you're up.
Player4: I attack it... 17 to hit, for 11 damage.
GM: That drops it! Out of combat. Now what?
Players: We continue through the cave.
GM: Okay, you get about 10 feet further and a zubat swoops down and attacks! Roll initiative.
Player1: 13.
Player2: 20.
Player3: 9.
Player4: 30.
GM: Okay, player4, you're up.
Player4: I attack it... 16 to hit, for 10 damage.
GM: That drops it! Out of combat. Now what?
Players: We continue through the cave.
GM: Okay, you get about 10 feet further and a zubat swoops down and attacks! Roll initiative.
Player1: 10.
Player2: 9.
Player3: 13.
Player4: 21.
GM: Okay, player4, you're up.
Player4: I attack it... 19 to hit, for 14 damage.
GM: That drops it! Out of combat. Now what?
Players: We continue through the cave.
GM: Okay, you get about 10 feet further and a zubat swoops down and attacks! Roll initiative.
Player1: 11.
Player2: 10.
Player3: 14.
Player4: 22.
GM: Okay, player4, you're up.
Player4: I attack it... 17 to hit, for 10 damage.
GM: That drops it! Out of combat. Now what?
Players: *throw the GM out the window*


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Jiggy wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Giygas.
Giygas would be a pushover, as long as you have a divine caster in your party.
You're only thinking of the endgame; before you get to that point, there will be several rounds of "You cannot grasp the true form of Giygas' attack!" What Pathfinder group will keep playing after that?

Also, even when you reach the end portion of the battle, your divine caster still needs to cast for nine rounds, during which you cannot grasp the true form of Gygas' attack, which is really deadly.

[Nitpick]Although Mother 1 suggests that his weakness is not divine power, but human emotion, so maybe what you actually need is an Enchanter wizard or bard.[/Nitpick]

Actually, come to think of it, Giygas is like a super version of the Baby Goblin Problem. On the one hand, he has become the embodiment of evil itself (and not merely the 'wielder of evil' like the Apple of Enlightenment predicted). On the other hand, his true form might have the image of a human fetus in it, and the source of his final lines ("Ness, it hurts!") come from a film in which they have a, uh,...different meaning.

Shadow Lodge

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On the subject of Pokemon, Abras are pretty annoying in a non-hostile sense, especially if the party needs to get one for something and can't cast dimensional anchor yet.

Imagine a mage or other villain who has one as a familiar/minion and keeps sending it to steal things from the party. Missing weapons, missing gold, missing spellbooks/spell component pouches, missing holy symbols... and attempting to catch something that can teleport at-will despite being worth almost nothing in a straight-up fight.

You *can* do this with some existing D&D/PF critters, but they're usually high-enough level to have better/more interesting/less annoying tricks up their sleeves.


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Orthos wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Gannondorf. OoT version.
The Nightmare Blot from Link's Awakening. Can you imagine a shapeshifter of that caliber with the endurance that thing has (seriously, it has like nine forms) getting its "hands" on a few Pathfinder bestiaries? *shudder*

Most of the bosses in Zelda 2, because that game is too freakin' hard for me! Only game in the series I eventually gave up trying to beat.

King K Rool, because you have to beat him as an unarmed fighter, and unarmed fighters can't have Nice Things. Unless you're a Thrashing Dragon initiator.

All the enemies from Ice Climber. Not because they would be hard, but because they would be too easy: Fly trivializes the entire game.


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Orthos wrote:

On the subject of Pokemon, Abras are pretty annoying in a non-hostile sense, especially if the party needs to get one for something and can't cast dimensional anchor yet.

Imagine a mage or other villain who has one as a familiar/minion and keeps sending it to steal things from the party. Missing weapons, missing gold, missing spellbooks/spell component pouches, missing holy symbols... and attempting to catch something that can teleport at-will despite being worth almost nothing in a straight-up fight.

You *can* do this with some existing D&D/PF critters, but they're usually high-enough level to have better/more interesting/less annoying tricks up their sleeves.

Hmm, 1st level trainers get access to scrolls of Permanent Dominate Monster. Pokeballs totally break WBL!


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Orthos wrote:

On the subject of Pokemon, Abras are pretty annoying in a non-hostile sense, especially if the party needs to get one for something and can't cast dimensional anchor yet.

Imagine a mage or other villain who has one as a familiar/minion and keeps sending it to steal things from the party. Missing weapons, missing gold, missing spellbooks/spell component pouches, missing holy symbols... and attempting to catch something that can teleport at-will despite being worth almost nothing in a straight-up fight.

You *can* do this with some existing D&D/PF critters, but they're usually high-enough level to have better/more interesting/less annoying tricks up their sleeves.

This is what Imps do.

As for me, maybe the Heartless, from Kingdom Hearts.

They're basically Neutral Evil or Chatotic Evil Outsiders who like to teleport in and try to gank you en masse, and ALL of them essentially have the "Create Spawn" ability, except instead of turning you into their specific type, you turn into one that suits your previous power level.

Party member gets killed by one? Well, hope you guys are ready to have a boss fight with your former companion somewhere down the line (if it's not just IMMEDIATELY).

And you know that no matter what you do, all attempts to fight them are futile. Since you don't have a Keyblade, not even the lowliest ones can ever truly be destroyed.

Shadow Lodge

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Rynjin wrote:
Orthos wrote:

On the subject of Pokemon, Abras are pretty annoying in a non-hostile sense, especially if the party needs to get one for something and can't cast dimensional anchor yet.

Imagine a mage or other villain who has one as a familiar/minion and keeps sending it to steal things from the party. Missing weapons, missing gold, missing spellbooks/spell component pouches, missing holy symbols... and attempting to catch something that can teleport at-will despite being worth almost nothing in a straight-up fight.

You *can* do this with some existing D&D/PF critters, but they're usually high-enough level to have better/more interesting/less annoying tricks up their sleeves.

This is what Imps do.

Imps have at-will teleport? It's been a while since I looked at their statblock, admittedly... Nope, just invisibility. Still pretty nice, but not as immensely frustrating as something being able to hop half a world away at the drop of a hat.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
meatrace wrote:

Those flying medusa heads from Castlevania.

F$%@ those guys!

*dramatic sting*


Orthos wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Orthos wrote:

On the subject of Pokemon, Abras are pretty annoying in a non-hostile sense, especially if the party needs to get one for something and can't cast dimensional anchor yet.

Imagine a mage or other villain who has one as a familiar/minion and keeps sending it to steal things from the party. Missing weapons, missing gold, missing spellbooks/spell component pouches, missing holy symbols... and attempting to catch something that can teleport at-will despite being worth almost nothing in a straight-up fight.

You *can* do this with some existing D&D/PF critters, but they're usually high-enough level to have better/more interesting/less annoying tricks up their sleeves.

This is what Imps do.
Imps have at-will teleport? It's been a while since I looked at their statblock, admittedly... Nope, just invisibility. Still pretty nice, but not as immensely frustrating as something being able to hop half a world away at the drop of a hat.

Hm. Nevermind. I thought Imps, Cacodaemons, and whatnot all still had the Greater Teleport SLA.


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137ben wrote:
Orthos wrote:

On the subject of Pokemon, Abras are pretty annoying in a non-hostile sense, especially if the party needs to get one for something and can't cast dimensional anchor yet.

Imagine a mage or other villain who has one as a familiar/minion and keeps sending it to steal things from the party. Missing weapons, missing gold, missing spellbooks/spell component pouches, missing holy symbols... and attempting to catch something that can teleport at-will despite being worth almost nothing in a straight-up fight.

You *can* do this with some existing D&D/PF critters, but they're usually high-enough level to have better/more interesting/less annoying tricks up their sleeves.

Hmm, 1st level trainers get access to scrolls of Permanent Dominate Monster. Pokeballs totally break WBL!

It's more Charm Monster. Pokemon CAN reject your commands, they just generally don't unless either they're too powerful relative to your ability as a trainer[the only explanation in the game] or you abuse them [anime].


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Rynjin wrote:
Orthos wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Orthos wrote:

On the subject of Pokemon, Abras are pretty annoying in a non-hostile sense, especially if the party needs to get one for something and can't cast dimensional anchor yet.

Imagine a mage or other villain who has one as a familiar/minion and keeps sending it to steal things from the party. Missing weapons, missing gold, missing spellbooks/spell component pouches, missing holy symbols... and attempting to catch something that can teleport at-will despite being worth almost nothing in a straight-up fight.

You *can* do this with some existing D&D/PF critters, but they're usually high-enough level to have better/more interesting/less annoying tricks up their sleeves.

This is what Imps do.
Imps have at-will teleport? It's been a while since I looked at their statblock, admittedly... Nope, just invisibility. Still pretty nice, but not as immensely frustrating as something being able to hop half a world away at the drop of a hat.
Hm. Nevermind. I thought Imps, Cacodaemons, and whatnot all still had the Greater Teleport SLA.

Lantern Archons can. Same power level. It would be easy to reflavor them as malicious. Angels fall and whatnot.


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Those damn electric desert beetles in Diablo II. Those were the bane of my existence.


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Huh. I don't even remember them.


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I was always a Barbarian, and everytime I would hit them, they would release very damaging electric balls out in every direction. Trying to melee them would kill you VERY FAST.


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Pokemon in general would be horrifying just because of how moves in Pokemon can work. Rather than having spell slots or preparing them, a Pokemon can use its moves at any time it feels like, and aside from things like Fire Blast most of them can be use 15/10 times per day, more if they're slightly weaker. Some heal for half their hitpoints in a single move and paralyses isn't exactly rare, in fact it's frequent with electric types.

That's not even counting the legendary Pokemon or gods forbid mega evolutions. And the immunities and all other nasty crap, Pokemon as they work in the games are serious s$*% if you throw them into pathfinder.


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How nobody mentioned Kefka is beyond me.

Opening round, everyone now has 1HP, no save.


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Hah!

That and Lavos.

"Good! You killed him! Oh, wait, no, no you didn't. He just regenerates right back there, as if it never happened. Sucks to be you, I guess!"

Or Bahamut (FF4).

"Wait: the only way to beat this guy is by having spellturning on everyone? What the heck?!"

Or the colossi from Shadow of the Colossus.

"Okay, so you need to make 12 climb checks in a row, find the glowing spot, and hit that before he knocks you off (checks against your CMD). If he does, that's okay, you can just climb up and try again... unless he knocks you too far, in which case, he recovers all hp to full."


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Anyone in the Tower of Fanatics in FF6. You can ONLY cast spells, and the spells are reflected back on you.


HyperMissingno wrote:

Pokemon in general would be horrifying just because of how moves in Pokemon can work. Rather than having spell slots or preparing them, a Pokemon can use its moves at any time it feels like, and aside from things like Fire Blast most of them can be use 15/10 times per day, more if they're slightly weaker. Some heal for half their hitpoints in a single move and paralyses isn't exactly rare, in fact it's frequent with electric types.

That's not even counting the legendary Pokemon or gods forbid mega evolutions. And the immunities and all other nasty crap, Pokemon as they work in the games are serious s&$@ if you throw them into pathfinder.

I think I'd rather face [or partner with] a Spellcaster with limited castings of many spells than tons of castings of up to 4 spells.

Now, if your talking about a Trainer who has access to 6 Pokemon each with 4 moves, THAT would be scary.


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thegreenteagamer wrote:

How nobody mentioned Kefka is beyond me.

Opening round, everyone now has 1HP, no save.

First thing that popped into my mind when I saw this thread was Kefka.

Next was "The Nothing" from The Neverending Story.

Also, if we're going FF bosses... Garland (second form)! And of course Sephiroth.

Also from FF7, the Weapons... [expletive deleted] you Emerald/Ruby Weapons.

Shadow Lodge

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thegreenteagamer wrote:

How nobody mentioned Kefka is beyond me.

Opening round, everyone now has 1HP, no save.

Queen Zeal in Chrono Trigger is fond of this tactic as well.

That said... beyond that, the reason I've avoided bosses like that is because, all things considered, they're fairly typically beaten. Healer burns a Mass Heal before Kefka's initiative comes back up, fight goes on. It's endgame, if you can't deal with tactics like that, you've already lost. Ditto with Golbez, Sephiroth, etc. Lavos is a bit odd, sure, but once you figure out the trick it's just a matter of beating up the right piece and surviving/enduring/outhealing his attacks.

The stuff I figured this thread was for were things that the games had that Pathfinder/D&D characters would have trouble dealing with due to differences in the system, which usually means focusing on gimmicky or annoying enemies.

Bowyer for example works because he utterly shuts down one mode of attack for the entire party, forcing people to either delay or greatly rethink their strategies. Magic-users will suddenly be utterly useless one round. The next all physical attackers will be able to do nothing but stand or move. And so forth.

Zubats work because their sheer numbers and the rapidity of attacks coupled with their easily-defeated weakness will wear on the party faster than a single more difficult enemy.

Giygas works because his mode of attack is undetectable, unpreventable, unavoidable, and can only simply be endured and healed, and the method to defeat him is extremely obscure (if you don't already know the game) and involves a very non-standard solution for a Pathfinder character.

And so forth. =)


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The blue screen of death (or equivalent)


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thegreenteagamer wrote:

How nobody mentioned Kefka is beyond me.

Opening round, everyone now has 1HP, no save.

Cackletta does that too, and it doesn't even count as her first turn.

It seems to be a common thing in boss fights. She also can cast Magic Jar, and can Create Pit several times per turn....yea, that wouldn't fly in Pathfinder, everyone would say she was overpowered.

And she still gets beaten by a pair of pure martials with teamwork feats that involve jumping on each other. PLUMBERS ARE OVERPOWERED!


kyrt-ryder wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:

Pokemon in general would be horrifying just because of how moves in Pokemon can work. Rather than having spell slots or preparing them, a Pokemon can use its moves at any time it feels like, and aside from things like Fire Blast most of them can be use 15/10 times per day, more if they're slightly weaker. Some heal for half their hitpoints in a single move and paralyses isn't exactly rare, in fact it's frequent with electric types.

That's not even counting the legendary Pokemon or gods forbid mega evolutions. And the immunities and all other nasty crap, Pokemon as they work in the games are serious s&$@ if you throw them into pathfinder.

I think I'd rather face [or partner with] a Spellcaster with limited castings of many spells than tons of castings of up to 4 spells.

Now, if your talking about a Trainer who has access to 6 Pokemon each with 4 moves, THAT would be scary.

Yeah, but most of those 4 moves are massively more powerful than spells.

Even the damaging ones are sorta like no save, no attack roll (or very high chance of hitting), Maximized spells that potentially attack everybody in the party at once.

For example, a STAB Fire Blast has a fixed 85% chance of hitting, and deals 160 damage, no save.

1d100 ⇒ 72

Bam. You're dead.

1d100 ⇒ 1

A miss!

And then it's probably dead.

Imagine if it'd been Surf or something.

135 damage to the whole party, no save. Probably kills everyone. Energy Resistance doesn't do anything since there's no Water damage resistance.

Most NPC spellcasters have nowhere NEAR the same level of single or multi-target insta-kills.


Rynjin wrote:
Pokemon stuff

Your math doesn't check out. STAB Fireblast is very very rarely a 1HKO [and fairly frequently not a 2HKO] for an opponent of the same level and evolutionary level, barring Type Vulnerability or using pokemon with particularly skewed abilities.

To be accurate you'd have to take the pokemon damage formula, and substitute Pathfinder Level*5 for Pokemon Level in the calculations, ignoring the Attack x Defense section. Then you might come up with something close-ish.

You'd also need to do something to reduce their HP, since some level 20 [100] pokemon have HP well over 400. Halving it might be appropriate. [Possibly leave the HP intact for the types that are intended to be legendary freaks of nature and higher challenges than their level indicates.]

EDIT: Alright, I went to a pokemon damage calculator and calculated a Stab Blizzard against a Normal Type, both at Level 20 [100]

Came out to between 118 and 141 damage

That's high, but it's nothing that a PF Blaster of the level couldn't pull off.

That being said, given the sheer volume of HPs pokemon have, and the expectation of using type advantage in a match, I could definitely see trimming Damage and HP a bit. Maybe skim 20-30% off the top or so

EDIT 2: Also I think the XX% miss chance and absolute accuracy theories are a bit misleading. Fireblast for example is clearly a ranged touch attack with a -3 penalty.

Surf's an AoE.

Keep in mind the standard 'full accuracy' attacks can be evaded, they just usually fail unless the target has upped his evasion stat somehow [or flew up into the air/dug under ground/dove under water before the attack came.]


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The Smelter Demon from Dark Souls 2. That guy's a jerk. So very many hours wasted... (Yeah, I suck at DS.)


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Pokemon stuff

Your math doesn't check out. STAB Fireblast is very very rarely a 1HKO [and fairly frequently not a 2HKO] for an opponent of the same level and evolutionary level, barring Type Vulnerability or using pokemon with particularly skewed abilities.

To be accurate you'd have to take the pokemon damage formula, and substitute Pathfinder Level*5 for Pokemon Level in the calculations, ignoring the Attack x Defense section. Then you might come up with something close-ish.

You'd also need to do something to reduce their HP, since some level 20 [100] pokemon have HP well over 400. Halving it might be appropriate. [Possibly leave the HP intact for the types that are intended to be legendary freaks of nature and higher challenges than their level indicates.]

EDIT: Alright, I went to a pokemon damage calculator and calculated a Stab Blizzard against a Normal Type, both at Level 20 [100]

Came out to between 118 and 141 damage

That's high, but it's nothing that a PF Blaster of the level couldn't pull off.

That being said, given the sheer volume of HPs pokemon have, and the expectation of using type advantage in a match, I could definitely see trimming Damage and HP a bit. Maybe skim 20-30% off the top or so

EDIT 2: Also I think the XX% miss chance and absolute accuracy theories are a bit misleading. Fireblast for example is clearly a ranged touch attack with a -3 penalty.

Surf's an AoE.

Keep in mind the standard 'full accuracy' attacks can be evaded, they just usually fail unless the target has upped his evasion stat somehow [or flew up into the air/dug under ground/dove under water before the attack came.]

Yes, but it's Pokemon in Pathfinder using Pokemon rules. Nothing adjusted.

As there is no Special Defense stat in Pathfinder, it's just base damage.

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Rynjin wrote:
Yes, but it's Pokemon in Pathfinder using Pokemon rules. Nothing adjusted.

Uh, I'm not sure that's an assumption of this thread, actually.


Any of those pain in the butt plotline bosses you have to die to in order to continue, like Beatrix in FF9, or the first time you fight Lavos in Chrono Trigger. If a GM pulls that crap he's kind of a dick. I don't care if you're using nonlethal and I'm destined to come back ten levels later and kill him, it's annoying as $#*+.

In more than one videogame as a kid I hit the reset button upon dying before I realized the truth, so yeah, I'm a little jaded.


Jiggy wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Yes, but it's Pokemon in Pathfinder using Pokemon rules. Nothing adjusted.
Uh, I'm not sure that's an assumption of this thread, actually.

If everything is adjusted to Pathfinder rules everything becomes far less imposing.

Liberty's Edge

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thegreenteagamer wrote:

Any of those pain in the butt plotline bosses you have to die to in order to continue, like Beatrix in FF9, or the first time you fight Lavos in Chrono Trigger. If a GM pulls that crap he's kind of a dick. I don't care if you're using nonlethal and I'm destined to come back ten levels later and kill him, it's annoying as $#*+.

In more than one videogame as a kid I hit the reset button upon dying before I realized the truth, so yeah, I'm a little jaded.

Yeah, these are the bane of my existence. A couple times I've actually *won* those fights only to have the game give me a Game Over! Which is almost as bad as pretending I lost and moving on.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Rynjin wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Yes, but it's Pokemon in Pathfinder using Pokemon rules. Nothing adjusted.
Uh, I'm not sure that's an assumption of this thread, actually.
If everything is adjusted to Pathfinder rules everything becomes far less imposing.

On the contrary, I think I demonstrated pretty well that converting zubats to Pathfinder rules makes them even worse. ;)

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