Dragon questions: change shape and scrolls / wands.

[The Black Bard]

I've got my own opinions, but I want to hear some input from others regarding this.

Would a dragon in the form of a human, be it from change shape or alter self/polymorph/shapechange, retain its energy immunity? Or any of its immunities, for that matter? I find a conflict between the fact that the creature's original type is retained, which should mean abilities granted by the type should still function. Yet darkvision is called out as an ability frequently lost when changing shape. Would draconic immunity to sleep still apply? Would a green dragon's immunity to acid? Would a red dragon retain its fire subtype, and thus both its fire immunity and cold vulnerability? If dragons loose their subtypes, do shapeshifting outsiders loose their alignment subtypes?

The other question is regarding dragons which can cast spells as sorcerors after a certain age category. Can these dragons use scrolls or wands in the age categories before they gain spellcasting? A precedent is set by the ranger and paladin, but the divide between player character and monster rules is often wide.

I realize this might be kicking a hornet's nest, but these questions are both interesting to me, and pertinent to my games. I would love to hear opinions on them or links to previous similar conversations.

[Archaeik]

I'll assume you've poured over the Polymorph subschool already, but I think it's pretty clear:

You change form, but not type (and I assume subtype is included here), but you lose all Ex and Su that depend on form.

This covers pretty much all Dragon abilities.

Effectively you do change type, but without actually changing for the purposes of things that rely on type (like favored enemy or bane).

Essentially the issue is deciding which abilities are attached to the body(lost) and which are attached to the soul/mind(kept).

And it does say the GM is the final arbiter, so if you want to say that since the subtype is retained, that it must be attached to the soul, I don't see an issue with it, and it helps keeps some flavor.
Likewise, immunity to sleep and/or paralysis would also be good candidates to keep.

The tricky part is keeping it (relatively) consistent across the board. Are all immunities attached to the soul, etc?

Regarding type/subtype features, I don't see a particular issue with losing them while polymorphed as most of them relate to the body... you call out darkvision as a common feature, but it's also clear from the polymorph section that the authors consider it to be primarily physical in nature, so I'm not sure I understand the concern.

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Quote:

Spells: A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its specific description. Its caster level depends on its age, as shown for each type.

I suspect the intent is that they don't have a spell list until the age category when they gain 1st level spells.

[Chemlak]

Generally I agree with Archaeik, in that it really depends on what you consider an ability granted by form and what you consider an ability granted by type.

First, I would say that the abilities presented in the dragon type are potentially retained provided that the new form does not inherently disallow them, so they retain immunity to sleep and paralysis, but only keep darkvision and low-light vision if the new form has them. SLAs will vanish, but spell casting will remain. They lose their natural attacks, but keep proficiencies with weapons, lose their breath weapon, spell resistance, damage reduction, energy immunities/vulnerabilities, natural armour, and flight.

There is the caveat that if the new form has any of those that are allowed by the alter self spell, then the dragon keeps them.

[Narquelion]

I see no reason why the SLAs should become unavailable.