Rules legal magical gun turrets. Please help!


Advice


In an abandoned arcane research facility, I wish to have a gun that animates itself as a turret at the end of one of the rooms act as an encounter. Logically (I thought) this would be as simple as an Alarm spell treated with Permanency triggering a Contingency spell that caused a Gun to animate similar to the 'dancing' weapon special ability. However I've hit a few snags you've probably already perceived; first and foremost, I can't find a spell on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list that animates a gun to fight on it's own. Any advice or things I've overlooked?


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Animate Object? Or you could refluff some damaging spell as the gun.


You might be able to just make this a sort of custom construct using the construct rules. Essentially make the turret gun, then animate construct or just create it as a construct outright.

That's probably how I'd do it personally. Not sure if it's the most elegant solution though, or if it actually works for that matter.


avr wrote:
Animate Object? Or you could refluff some damaging spell as the gun.

Animate objects works; the rules are sort of loose on that... In a perfect world my players survive the duration or break the gun, and either way I'd like to give it to the Holy Gun Paladin in the group since in the same dungeon the Blackblade Magus is finding his sword and I don't want any inequality.

Is there a spot in any book that gives generic hardness/hp for things like a floating gun?...


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Iron or steel, Hardness 10, HP 30/in. of thickness
Mithral, Hardness 15, HP 30/in. of thickness
Adamantine, Hardness 20, HP 40/in. of thickness

You'd probably have to guess on how thick it is I think.


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For generic hardness/hp there's nothing exact but this table has some examples.

If you want the gun to be loot you might want there to be something wielding the gun, or to have it possible to steal the ammo from the table beneath or something, a sundered gun probably isn't going to be useful.


You could do it as a resetting magical trap. The area of the trigger is the gun's range, and the gun is the trap itself that fires a spell. This does allow it to fire once per round, I believe.

Grand Lodge

JupiterOfTheSky wrote:
I'd like to give it to the Holy Gun Paladin in the group since in the same dungeon the Blackblade Magus is finding his sword and I don't want any inequality.

Just a note, since no one else has pointed it out. You want to use loot to balance class abilities? This can be a rather slippery slope. Either, you give this gun to the paladin, saying that the magus's class abilities do not matter, or you will not go far enough and it is like that monopoly card "Win $10 for coming in second at the beauty contest."

The balancing factor in the black blade is that it is inelegant and not a slave to the magus's will. It can even force the magus unless they are careful.

Moving on now, a +1 Dancing (fill in gun type) with a permanent Reloading Hands. The reloading hands could end up being damaged as the party shuts down the turret. Or just make it a +1 firearm wielded by an animate object arm. Again, Reloading Hands in the arm, not the firearm. Considering the cost of firearms, a +1 of whatever the paladin was going to use is a big financial boon anyway.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

You've basically described a magical trap with a low DC to spot.


JupiterOfTheSky wrote:
In an abandoned arcane research facility, I wish to have a gun that animates itself as a turret at the end of one of the rooms act as an encounter. Logically (I thought) this would be as simple as an Alarm spell treated with Permanency triggering a Contingency spell that caused a Gun to animate similar to the 'dancing' weapon special ability. However I've hit a few snags you've probably already perceived; first and foremost, I can't find a spell on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list that animates a gun to fight on it's own. Any advice or things I've overlooked?

Arcane Cannon spell. 7th level.

How big a gun did you want?

Scarab Sages

Just make a mechanical trap similar to a arrow trap, but instead of firing a single arrow, it fires a machine gun for as many rounds as it has ammo.


Dafydd wrote:
JupiterOfTheSky wrote:
I'd like to give it to the Holy Gun Paladin in the group since in the same dungeon the Blackblade Magus is finding his sword and I don't want any inequality.

Just a note, since no one else has pointed it out. You want to use loot to balance class abilities? This can be a rather slippery slope. Either, you give this gun to the paladin, saying that the magus's class abilities do not matter, or you will not go far enough and it is like that monopoly card "Win $10 for coming in second at the beauty contest."

The balancing factor in the black blade is that it is inelegant and not a slave to the magus's will. It can even force the magus unless they are careful.

Moving on now, a +1 Dancing (fill in gun type) with a permanent Reloading Hands. The reloading hands could end up being damaged as the party shuts down the turret. Or just make it a +1 firearm wielded by an animate object arm. Again, Reloading Hands in the arm, not the firearm. Considering the cost of firearms, a +1 of whatever the paladin was going to use is a big financial boon anyway.

The gun will be a broken +1 gun. This is their first ever d&d experience and the paladin already feels outclassed by the magus, as it's just them two. In order to prevent a further perceived disparity, and since I believe a +1 gun is appropriate at the junction quest between levels 2 and 3.

The reloading hands spell is part of the trap but is separated with it's own Contingency spell and thus is a one-duration event that does not follow the gun with the player. Furthermore it is not 'dancing' (although I expected it to be).

However as a new dm, in the future I'll very well keep your advice in mind. I appreciate t greatly.


Third Mind wrote:

Iron or steel, Hardness 10, HP 30/in. of thickness

Mithral, Hardness 15, HP 30/in. of thickness
Adamantine, Hardness 20, HP 40/in. of thickness

You'd probably have to guess on how thick it is I think.

Thank you! Also other guy below him, thanks for the table for future reference!

Editor

Umbral Reaver wrote:
You could do it as a resetting magical trap. The area of the trigger is the gun's range, and the gun is the trap itself that fires a spell. This does allow it to fire once per round, I believe.

There is just such a trap in:

Spoiler:
Pathfinder Adventure Path #86: Lords of Rust, on page 21.

The firearm is recoverable, and fires twice per round until it's out of ammo. This is a pretty good place to start, imo.


Cannon Golems


JupiterOfTheSky wrote:

...

Animate objects works; the rules are sort of loose on that... In a perfect world my players survive the duration or break the gun, and either way I'd like to give it to the Holy Gun Paladin in the group since in the same dungeon the Blackblade Magus is finding his sword and I don't want any inequality.

...

I will just repeat the Warning giving the paladin a magic item that alone takes him above WBL is a bit unequal. Unless the magus got a magic belt for the lay on hands, and a pair gloves for smite as well as a cloak for divine grace. At level 3 they shouldent be very different exept the magus May have more skills and the paladin pehaps have better social skills. Unless of cause they have very different stat values.


Cap. Darling wrote:
JupiterOfTheSky wrote:

...

Animate objects works; the rules are sort of loose on that... In a perfect world my players survive the duration or break the gun, and either way I'd like to give it to the Holy Gun Paladin in the group since in the same dungeon the Blackblade Magus is finding his sword and I don't want any inequality.

...

I will just repeat the Warning giving the paladin a magic item that alone takes him above WBL is a bit unequal. Unless the magus got a magic belt for the lay on hands, and a pair gloves for smite as well as a cloak for divine grace. At level 3 they shouldent be very different exept the magus May have more skills and the paladin pehaps have better social skills. Unless of cause they have very different stat values.

Which I typically agree with; yet in this specific instance allow me to reiterate, for the record, that THIS DOES NOT PUT THE PALADIN ABOVE WBL. Also I think your comparison of all the paladin item class abilities is wrong, if well meaning. The players are going to be level 3. The Magus is getting a sword. The paladin is getting himself a gun, As a 'Holy Gun' paladin.

I'm not giving it to him to 'balance the class ability', I'm giving it to him so he'll have a new weapon for the first time since we started. It is not unequal since THE MAGUS IS GETTING LOOT OTHER THAN THE SWORD. I just want the Pally's loot to also include a weapon.


Feel free to ignore me but WBL at 3 is 3000 gp what kind of +1gun is not worth more than 3000 gp?


Cap. Darling wrote:
Feel free to ignore me but WBL at 3 is 3000 gp what kind of +1gun is not worth more than 3000 gp?

You know what? You're entirely correct :( I'm completely wrong.

I've given a bit more wbl to compensate for there only being two of them. I forgot how freakin' expensive guns are. Gah! GMing is a lot to take care of mentally, and since it's all of our first time doing this all around I've goofed up.

Thank you for pointing that out. If you were me, how would you go about (from a gm to a player) not further making the paladin feel left out? The magus has "all those options" (cantrips, spellstrike, spell combat, spells in general" and the paladin has... Smiting shot and lay on hands. He has more hp, better saves, and better ac on top of hitting more often but he says all he does is heal and shoot.

I've tried offering him the chance to change classes, but he doesn't want to 'admit defeat'.


Many ways to do this. It all depends on how 'detailed' you want to do it. If you're trying to figure out all these components and how much it would cost and what spells you want to use, you may be putting in way too much effort for too little of a reward.

The simplest approach is to simply re-skin a "Crossbow Trap" and give it the gun instead of the crossbow. Easy, simple, done.

The middle-difficulty approach is to get that turret that Joe Homes mentioned. It'll probably be closest to what you're wanting.

The more-complicated approach bends the rules a bit. Find a Small Construct race (a Wyrwood, perhaps), give it 1-3 levels of Gunslinger, and just visually 're-skin' it as a turret. Simply don't allow it to move. This lets you have Perception checks and other possible things like Rapid Shot and whatnot, as well as a decent AC and Hit Points. When it dies, the 'turret' is destroyed, and the PC's can claim the weapon.

The most complicated approach is what some people are trying here, making a Dancing weapon or trying to figure out how to finagle a Animated Object so that it is the gun itself, while not explaining how destroying it is going to help the Pally (if it's smashed to pieces, would he even think to pick it up and repair it?). IE: Smushing it in literally with what rules are available to directly translate it. Why bother?

Incidentally, option #3 is good for making those 'composite boss' fights you see in videogames. The 'turrets' that can be attacked separately on the main creature are just themselves other creatures, statistically speaking. Sum up the CR accordingly for the total.

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JupiterOfTheSky wrote:

You know what? You're entirely correct :( I'm completely wrong.

I've given a bit more wbl to compensate for there only being two of them. I forgot how freakin' expensive guns are. Gah! GMing is a lot to take care of mentally, and since it's all of our first time doing this all around I've goofed up.

You're the DM, you're never 'wrong', it's your campaign. That being said, you could make bad choices. ;)

However, this isn't one.
It doesn't matter how expensive the guns are. Just give the Pally less stuff later when the Magus gets stuff. You don't have to adhere to the WBL 'guidelines' with absolute rigidity unless you're in Society play.


Arturius Fischer wrote:
The more-complicated approach bends the rules a bit. Find a Small Construct race (a Wyrwood, perhaps), give it 1-3 levels of Gunslinger, and just visually 're-skin' it as a turret. Simply don't allow it to move. This lets you have Perception checks and other possible things like Rapid Shot and whatnot, as well as a decent AC and Hit Points. When it dies, the 'turret' is destroyed, and the PC's can ...

This is a wonderful idea and thank you for your kind words. I just really don't wanna screw this up and it's stressing; I've gotten really attached to this idea of doing everything completely rules legal and whatnot, perhaps I've got to relax a bit.


Yes completely rules legal is not nessesarily the focus a GM need. The gun paladin is a slow starter and depending on what gun he uses he Will stay slow. A musket Will keep his shooting to max 2 shots even at High levels f. eks. A pebber box pistol is a nice holy gun. but if you make sure they figth lot of evil stuff he Can stay in the game.


Cap. Darling wrote:

Yes completely rules legal is not nessesarily the focus a GM need. The gun paladin is a slow starter and depending on what gun he uses he Will stay slow. A musket Will keep his shooting to max 2 shots even at High levels f. eks. A pebber box pistol is a nice holy gun. but if you make sure they figth lot of evil stuff he Can stay in the game.

Alright cool, thanks. I'll keep this all in mind. Thank you all for your advice and patience I'm sure I'll be back soon with another question eventually. Until then happy gaming.

Grand Lodge

The flame that burns twice as bright, burns half as long.

Magus is gonna max out at 4 attacks at level 20 (+27/+27/+22/+17) which I know seems like a lot, but lets look at the paladin now. 5 attacks against touch AC, without smite we are looking at +31/+31/+26/+21/+16.

At low levels, the paladin may very well feel a little put upon, but it does change to his favor later in life. Think the turning point is around level 6 or so, when the paladin is popping off 3 attacks in a round.

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