Would a feat that makes one specific skill, chosen when taking the feat, have ranks equal to your character level be unbalanced?
How could it be abused?
Yes, it would be broken. Never minding the fact it would basically give you up to 20 free skill points, there's already a feat for improving a skill. It's called Skill Focus.
Just get a +2 Int item with the associate skill and call it a day.
Yes, it would be broken. Never minding the fact it would basically give you up to 20 free skill points, there's already a feat for improving a skill. It's called Skill Focus.
Ok then, how many skill points should a feat be worth? I think 3.0 once had a feat that gave 5 skill points for a feat. Is that too much? Too little?
The racial creation system gives a 'SP per level' the same cost as a feat. Would it not be similar?
And skill focus allows you to increase your bonus over the skill rank cap, which is something the suggested feat could not do.
Just get a +2 Int item with the associate skill and call it a day.
While that is possible I have a player asking for this feat in a home brew game he wants more skill points and is willing to spend a feat. I am inclined to acquiesce but I wanted to run it buy the forums to see if it would be too powerful or too weak or abuseable.
NONE of my players are min/maxers or optimisers to any real degree BTW.
Yes, it would be broken. Never minding the fact it would basically give you up to 20 free skill points, there's already a feat for improving a skill. It's called Skill Focus.Ok then, how many skill points should a feat be worth? I think 3.0 once had a feat that gave 5 skill points for a feat. Is that too much? Too little?
"3.0 did X" is rarely a good argument for including anything, much less basing stuff for PF on it.
Just borrow the I Can Swim feat from SpyCraft:
Benefit: Beginning with the level at which you gain this feat, you need not spend skill points when you gain them. Instead, you may, as a free action before making any skill check, spend your remaining skill points to purchase ranks in the skill being used. This does not allow you to exceed your standard maximum skill rank. All unspent skill points must be spent before you gain each subsequent level.
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And skill focus allows you to increase your bonus over the skill rank cap, which is something the suggested feat could not do.
Skill Ranks are to Skills what your Base Attack Bonus is to your Attacks.
Your Attack Bonus can be, and often is, significantly higher than your Base Attack Bonus (which is the entire point).
Skill Ranks are just the baseline Bonus you gain from a skill, which then adds the appropriate Ability Modifier, and then extra Bonuses from things like Skill Focus or Magic Items.
If Toughness can grant you up to 20 free hit points, I don't think that an option that grants you 20 free skill ranks is overpowered.
If Toughness can grant you up to 20 free hit points, I don't think that an option that grants you 20 free skill ranks is overpowered.
Hit Points can't end a fight.
Ludicrous amounts of Diplomacy, Bluff, etc. can.
If Toughness can grant you up to 20 free hit points, I don't think that an option that grants you 20 free skill ranks is overpowered.
This already exists. It's called the Favored Class Bonus.
You can gain 1 hp/level = Toughness = 1 feat.
or
You can gain 1 skill point/level = 1 feat.
So, a feat that gave you +1 skill points/level is right on line with a low power general feat, and you should have no problems making one up. I don't know why PF doesn't have one. There were 2 or 3 variants in 3E (Nymph's Kiss the most infamous of them).
==Aelryinth
This already exists. It's called the Favored Class Bonus.
You can gain 1 hp/level = Toughness = 1 feat.
or
You can gain 1 skill point/level = 1 feat.
So, a feat that gave you +1 skill points/level is right on line with a low power general feat, and you should have no problems making one up. I don't know why PF doesn't have one. There were 2 or 3 variants in 3E (Nymph's Kiss the most infamous of them).
This was my line of thinking as well. And in this case the feat would not be spendable on anything but the skill it was chosen for when taken.
I am looking for any way that this could be abused but so far am not seeing any downside. Still anxious for others input though.
"3.0 did X" is rarely a good argument for including anything, much less basing stuff for PF on it.
I completely agree but it was the only example that immediately came to mind about SP's in exchange for a feat that I remembered being published.
Well, let me put it this way.
YOu can take this feat, OR you can buy a 4k headband of Int+2 and get the EXACT SAME BENEFIT (ranks = level in one skill). Except you can swap out for another skill as you desire.
Does this now seem overpowered? Meh!
==Aelryinth
Basically you take a feat instead of paying 1 skill point per level for a maxed skill. It's probably fine.
Basically you take a feat instead of paying 1 skill point per level for a maxed skill. It's probably fine.
How about:
Skill Dedication: Choose one skill when this feat is taken. You now automatically have ranks in that skill equal to your character level. Any skill ranks previously spent on this skill must be immediately respent.
This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time it must be applied to a new skill.
Basically you take a feat instead of paying 1 skill point per level for a maxed skill. It's probably fine.How about:
Skill Dedication: Choose one skill when this feat is taken. You now automatically have ranks in that skill equal to your character level. Any skill ranks previously spent on this skill must be immediately respent.
So, between a Feat, a Headband of Intellect, Favored Class Bonus, and being a Human, you'd be giving each class a 3+(1 to 3) extra skills per level. Add another 1 or 2 from Inherent Bonuses to Int.
dreamscarred press sorta did this as a feat in psionics unleashed, basically it was toughness for skills.
So, between a Feat, a Headband of Intellect, Favored Class Bonus, and being a Human, you'd be giving each class a 3+(1 to 3) extra skills per level. Add another 1 or 2 from Inherent Bonuses to Int.
One of my home rules is that Intelligence increases from magic items never give bonus skill points from the intelligence increase alone.
The 'built in skills' from intellect headbands still work normally.
But yes a character dedicated to skill points willing to burn a feat could get more skill points by trading a feat for one more per level.
If Toughness can grant you up to 20 free hit points, I don't think that an option that grants you 20 free skill ranks is overpowered.
Hrm, I honestly didn't think of that. Upon some further thought, this feat might actually be fairly balanced after all. How about a revised Skill Focus feat that works like this:
Skill Focus
Choose a skill. You are particularly adept at that skill.
Benefit: You gain a number of skill ranks in the chosen skill equal to your total Hit Dice. This does not stack with skill ranks you already possess. In addition, while you have less than 3 HD, you gain a bonus on checks with this skill equal to 3 – your HD. This bonus and the number of ranks you gain from this feat change as you gain HD (such as when you gain a level).
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new skill.
I'm not sure I'd want it to replace Skill Focus. The two fill different niches.
Same here. I am not looking to remove or alter skill focus or any of the other skill related feats in any way or to allow one feat to max and increase the max ranks on a skill at the same time or to increase the max ranks at all since that is abusable for some PrC's. Merely to add one new feat that essentially adds one skill point per character level.
The most abuse I can see would be taking the feat as I have it above and it would let you re-spend skill points if you choose a feat you already have a lot of ranks in, which I would be fine with in my game since it still uses up a feat.
That's not a houserule, that is the rule.
Then my GM has been playing it wrong all these years and I am glad to know my instincts were correct in never liking that rule.
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Is it OP to get +1 skill rank per level as a feat? Let's look at what Paizo's made before.
1) The Toughness feat. Does basically that but for HP. You don't see a lot of threads complaining it's OP.
2) Favored Class Bonus gives you either +1 HP or +1 skill rank per level. So you could take the skill points and use Toughness to get the HP anyway. Most build guides seem to assume that taking the HP is the much more powerful choice of FCB.
3) There's this feat:
Fast Learner
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.
In this context, I don't think a feat that maxes out a skill would be problematic. I think it'd be a slight improvement for fighters, who sometimes have more feats than skill ranks to spend.
Desperate sorcerers, paladins and clerics might also use it.
This is what I am going to go with for my home game:
Skill Dedication
Benefit: Choose one skill when this feat is taken. From this point on you will automatically have ranks in that skill equal to your current character level. Possessing this feat can never result in a character having skill ranks greater than their character level in a skill either on it's own or in combination with other abilities, feats or items.
Any skill ranks previously spent on this skill must be immediately re-spent on other skills, obeying all normal rules.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new skill.
A feat that just grants a fixed number of skill points would accomplish the same. The player could assign them to any combination of skills as desired, limited by the skill cap.
This still effectively does that since the skill points you get in the chosen skill allow you to spend your skill points on other things.
And conceptually it fits with the feat name fluff.
There's a feat in a 3rd party product sold here on paizo(The Summoner's Cirle, I think) that has a feat called Hobbyist. It gives rank in a chosen skill equal to your level, and can be taken multiple times. It has no prerequisites.
Under what circumstances would they lose the feat though?
This is getting all too complicated. The dreamscarred press feat wording is more than enough:
Open Minded
You are naturally able to reroute your memory, mind, and skill expertise.
Benefit: You gain 1 skill point for every Hit Die you possess. You gain 1 skill point whenever you gain a Hit Die (such as when you gain a level). You spend these skill points as normal. You cannot exceed the normal maximum point for your level in any skill.
This is getting all too complicated. The dreamscarred press feat wording is more than enough:
Open Minded
You are naturally able to reroute your memory, mind, and skill expertise.
Benefit: You gain 1 skill point for every Hit Die you possess. You gain 1 skill point whenever you gain a Hit Die (such as when you gain a level). You spend these skill points as normal. You cannot exceed the normal maximum point for your level in any skill.
Thanks for your input. I am doing this for my home game so I am fine with what I have come up with. I was just really looking to see if the general power was in line with a feat and if there were any abuses that could come up and I have been satisfied that I am good.
Obviously everyone can make whatever home rules they want for their games. This one works well for mine and it parallels the HP/SP parity shown in favored class bonuses and race point costs.
Although I do see where 'Open Minded' would be usable on a creature without Class Levels I am not too worried about that in my home game.