Wrath of the Righteous - First Thoughts


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game General Discussion

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Calthaer wrote:
Elizabeth Corrigan wrote:
As long as there's no goose in the rigging.
It's my initial estimate is that the Demonic Horde barrier (IIRC that's the name of the card - the one where a random party member has to fight the servitor, times the number of party members) is going to be more...provocative...than any of the ones already mentioned.

Wait, so if it's encountered in a party of six, some poor random schmuck in the party has to fight something SIX times?


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When will the WotR character sheets be available for download?


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Orbis Orboros wrote:
Calthaer wrote:
Elizabeth Corrigan wrote:
As long as there's no goose in the rigging.
It's my initial estimate is that the Demonic Horde barrier (IIRC that's the name of the card - the one where a random party member has to fight the servitor, times the number of party members) is going to be more...provocative...than any of the ones already mentioned.
Wait, so if it's encountered in a party of six, some poor random schmuck in the party has to fight something SIX times?

Not exactly. Each character randomly chooses a character to encounter the demon. So only if you're really unlucky will one character have to fight all of them.


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How about the fact that the non-basic, non-corrupted blessing in the B deck only have 3 copies and the C deck only adds 1 more of each, for 4 total? It was 4/5 in RotR and S&S. I guess we'll have those corrupted blessing foisted upon us.

It is nice to see some of the things you think are "standard" for PACG get tossed out the window.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Hawkmoon269 wrote:
It is nice to see some of the things you think are "standard" for PACG get tossed out the window.

Hold on to your hats—this ride is just getting started.


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I also just noticed there is a second power on the adventure path card. We can't take anything for granted.

Sovereign Court

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Hmm I missed that, I'll have to take a look.


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Hawkmoon269 wrote:

How about the fact that the non-basic, non-corrupted blessing in the B deck only have 3 copies and the C deck only adds 1 more of each, for 4 total? It was 4/5 in RotR and S&S. I guess we'll have those corrupted blessing foisted upon us.

It is nice to see some of the things you think are "standard" for PACG get tossed out the window.

That's definitely good to know! It could potentially change a lot of my homebrew characters knowing the rule of 5 isn't guaranteed.

Scarab Sages

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Xexyz wrote:
Orbis Orboros wrote:


Wait, so if it's encountered in a party of six, some poor random schmuck in the party has to fight something SIX times?
Not exactly. Each character randomly chooses a character to encounter the demon. So only if you're really unlucky will one character have to fight all of them.

Fighting something six times isn't as much of an issue as potentially fighting it twice - say, in a group of three or four, where that's more likely than in a group of six. For warriors that isn't a huge deal, but there are often times when non-sorcerous casters have only one Attack spell in-hand (e.g., Enora and Sharda).

This barrier takes the part of the strategy of PACG that lets you control which characters face which encounters and throws it out the window. A character whose deck is low can't just sit pretty at a closed location while the rest of the group tries to eke out the adventure...a Demonic Horde could overrun the weakling and that player might have to fight two foes back-to-back, with no warning...and IIRC there are three Hordes in the box. Casters just got a lot more squishy?

This makes a good case for characters like Enora teaming up with someone like Seelah, who can add to combat checks at her location...but then again, you often have other cards (like the Giant Maggots, IIRC) that force everyone at the location to fight them...

I've been playing a three-group with Seelah, Adowyn, and Enora (took Chad's advice), and Enora died in scenario 2 (hate that Carrion Golem). I am thinking about running this again with all three Divine spells on Seelah and Adowyn being cures, but even this is a bit chancy. I'm starting to wonder whether Enora and Sharda really need to be grouped with a cleric who can heal on-demand, given that weak characters seem less able to stay safe. When you need a Cure here, you really can't just wait until the card happens to show up, and you have to be able to recharge it (which Seelah / Adowyn realistically can't). We'll see.


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That barrier basically was the undoing of Calthaer and I the other night. He was Shardra and Alain while I was Balazar and Adowyn. First scenario of B. The location was the one that requires all characters at the location to summon and defeat the servitor demon. We beat the henchman, but then one of us failed to defeat the servitor demon, meaning we'd have to empty that location. A few cards later in the deck was the demonic horde barrier. It worked out that everyone got one demon. The first 3 of us defeated it, but the 4th failed. We left that location to try to force the villain there, but ended up running out of time.

We definitely missed having skill feats and were probably a little too conservative with blessings and other aids.


Are there still a few sphere spells around? Those pseudo-weapons really helped casters deal with multiple combats. Their design template (extending to other spells, such as Wall of Fire) might be my favorite single thing S&S introduced. Even over stat stones (but I do love casters, so...).


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We're still in B, and not playing Arcane, but haven't seen any spheres (fire sphere was a 1 card?) and nothing beyond a 2d4. One that you specifically might like, Orbis, gives you a Divine+2d4 combat check, but can also be used to banish and armor/weapon/item you encounter and immediately explore again. Even with its weak dice, that's a crazy bit of utility.


Dave Riley wrote:
We're still in B, and not playing Arcane, but haven't seen any spheres (fire sphere was a 1 card?) and nothing beyond a 2d4. One that you specifically might like, Orbis, gives you a Divine+2d4 combat check, but can also be used to banish and armor/weapon/item you encounter and immediately explore again. Even with its weak dice, that's a crazy bit of utility.

That is awesome!

I'm struggling with the decision to go Divine as I always do, or play Balazar. I probably won't know until I see the contents for myself.


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Started yesterday, I took Seelah and Kyra, my friend took Balthazar and Imrijka.

Seelah and Kyra made a pretty good pair. Seelah burns through her deck fast, but I had three cure between them, and Kyra's anti-demon/undead ability also provides some additional healing.

Did run into the Demonic Horde, with Seelah taking 2 of the 4. Things could get very interesting when we get here with my full group of 6.

Game came right to the wire, with Kyra having to beat the villain to death barehanded, and Seelah exhausting her deck to provide the bonuses on the last turn.

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I like to think of Wrath as the training ground for a common saying in Chad's and my RPG group: "don't die with smart bombs."


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But if you save them they're worth 10,000 points at the end of the level. :(


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So game designy - old scrolling shooters incentivized you for not using them so people didn't use them even if they died because their only goal was to maximize point gainage :)


The terror....

my group of four has played the other two sets many times. we are never close to death and have never lost out of the 6 times we have gone from 1-6 in rise and skulls. only come close to having the time run out.

got to play it with my friends 4 of us. we managed to play the first two base set. took us 5 hours for 2 of them. the easiest ones i would think. we were hanging on by a thread the whole time both in near death and time out. I would cure for 5 as the shaman when my turn came to our summoner, by the end of his turn he had 3 cards in his deck.

this is a much scarier set... the terror...the terror....


I thought Zadim the Slayer class was going to be in Wrath. Who replaced him?

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I think he was replaced by the Inquisitor, was he ever anything more than a speculated character?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Waaaay way back in June, we said that in his Meet the Iconics blog. In about September-ish, we decided to replace him with Imrijka. Reasons for this will become apparent... eventually.

Sovereign Court

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Wait, there was more reason than just "Meh, Imrijka just seems like a better fit"?

You have my attention


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Vic Wertz wrote:
...we decided to replace him with Imrijka. Reasons for this will become apparent... eventually.

Dun dun DUN

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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There are a *lot* of things that go into choosing characters for an AP. Mechanics, obviously, but also marketing and long-term strategies. A lot of people spend a lot of time on it.

Shadow Lodge

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I got my sets today without notice, 2 days before I even expected them to ship. :) I loved the nod to some great scenarios from PFS. After looking at the scenarios I think you guys did a good job in catching the feel of these great scenarios. Thanks. :)

Silver Crusade

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Got mine today, too. I was also thrilled by the scenarios in the B set. I looked through the villains first and was like, "What is Tancred Desimire doing here?" Then I saw the scenarios and got really excited.

I'm definitely going to be playing Imrijka. Adowyn is my second choice.

Adventure Card Game Designer

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Elizabeth Corrigan wrote:
Got mine today, too. I was also thrilled by the scenarios in the B set. I looked through the villains first and was like, "What is Tancred Desimire doing here?" Then I saw the scenarios and got really excited.

Also please note the following line in the rulebook credits:

Also Based on Pathfinder Society Scenarios By • Ryan Costello, Jr., Paris Crenshaw, Matthew Goodall, Alex Greenshields, Thurston Hillman, Nathan King, and Ben McFarland

When we have a resource like a year of PFS scenarios, we're gonna use it.


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Well obviously Kyra is a Qadiran, and Zadim is also a Qadiran, and you know having more than 1 human of a single nationality in an AP is a no-no.

I'm excited about the SotR scenarios being based on the PFS scenarios.

Are there going to be some designs that are the other way around? Other than the RPG module based on the S&S B adventure, that is.

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zeroth_hour wrote:
I'm excited about the SotR scenarios being based on the PFS scenarios.

The Wrath B scenarios are based on the PFS scenarios. The SotR scenarios are based on a plot we're weaving out of The Worldwound guide and some other things we can't talk about yet.

zeroth_hour wrote:
Are there going to be some designs that are the other way around? Other than the RPG module based on the S&S B adventure, that is.

You never know about things like that.


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Can you elaborate on which PFS secnarios got adapted? I still ahve to wait for my base set box to cross the Atlantic.

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Got mine last night. Took solo Alain through the first scenario. Won fairly easily, with a couple minor hiccups:

-The Mongrelman Ranger? monster is my official new nemesis. He came up twice when pulled as a "fight a random monster from the box," which of course necessitates another random pull for his difficulty. That's fine, but his d4-1 before combat damage hit me for three both times, with no armor in my hand. *shakes fist* The nasty part is with a four hand size, it kept discarding all the blessings I was trying to keep for the villain/henchmen. Also meant I lost his cohort horse pretty quickly.

-I never used Alain's "discard for +1" power. I figure that's an ability that I'll have to grow into with better cards - usually a +1 isn't worth a discard to me.

-The ability to recharge weapons is nice to prevent them from choking up your hand. Works well with his small hand size.

Silver Crusade

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Zaister wrote:
Can you elaborate on which PFS secnarios got adapted? I still ahve to wait for my base set box to cross the Atlantic.

I didn't recognize the first one, but the others are The Elven Entanglement, The Traitor's Lodge, The Wardstone Patrol, and Vengeance at Sundered Crag.

Spoiler:
I finally get to take out Tancred Desimire! When I played Vengeance, my GM had him escape in a very unsatisfying way.

Shadow Lodge

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Elizabeth Corrigan wrote:
Zaister wrote:
Can you elaborate on which PFS secnarios got adapted? I still have to wait for my base set box to cross the Atlantic.
...The Wardstone Patrol...

SQUEEE!!!!

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The first scenario is based off of Port Godless.

Given the amount of PFS that I play, I am also really happy that PFS scenarios got tied into the ACG, and would be excited in seeing it happen again. One thing that bugs me though.

Weapon in the Rift:
Why is Ghalcor in Traitor's Lodge?

I'm excited for WotR! I'll be trying to finish up S&S quickly so I can start playing WotR.

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Zaister wrote:
Can you elaborate on which PFS scenarios got adapted?

There are bits from here and there, but basically: The Elven Entanglement, Port Godless, The Traitor's Lodge, Vengeance at Sundered Crag, The Wardstone Patrol, and Weapon in the Rift. Plus, Ekkie is from Rise of the Goblin Guild.


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Speaking of Ekkie, is she being released as a playable character ala Ranzak?


Xexyz wrote:
Speaking of Ekkie, is she being released as a playable character ala Ranzak?

yup

Grand Lodge

Well, they said they were testing it. I imagine it is very likely she'll be an unlockable character, but there's nothing definite afaik.


My usual PACG group is temporarily out of commission for the Memorial Day and upcoming con weekends, so I got some people who I normally play tabletop games with, who played a bit of RotR back during release and no S&S, to have a go at it.

Biggest first impression? Three words:

Gorram
Tree
Barrier.

We hit two tree barriers and the demon barrier twice as well. (Someone only had one attack spell and had to drop two demons. This will be a common story about the demon barrier I think.)

Those two barriers are the biggest errata candidates I can think of. A barrier that pretty well unavoidably ruins the entire party's turns for a cycle regardless of location and can occur in multiples is not okay. I hate to see what will happen to 6 player groups that get to fight trees 3 times because of bonus temptation barriers or other shenanigans. 18 tempo loss because of lost attacks and damage taken out of 30 would pretty much equal scoop and redeal, and without a whole lot of mitigation possible other than "don't flip over the barrier on your exploration".

Paizo Employee CEO

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NOG the Demoralizer wrote:

the tree barrier... noooooo.

seriously, we ran through the material that is out this weekend, and that is the single worst thing we could find.

hate it, hate it! :)

We have been playing Wrath in my home game for a couple of weeks now (it pays to own the company sometimes) and all of us ABHOR that barrier. It seems we got it quite a bit in the early scenarios, but once we added in Deck 1, it hasn't shown up as much. But, yeah, HATE IT!

-Lisa

PS: It is good to have cards that you hate in the game. Makes you feel really good when you overcome them. It is like triumphing against adversity.

Dark Archive

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My set won't arrive until tomorrow but I am enjoying this thread. I can only imagine how fiendish this "tree barrier" is with all the hate it is getting. I can't wait until tomorrow!


Calthaer wrote:
Xexyz wrote:
Orbis Orboros wrote:


Wait, so if it's encountered in a party of six, some poor random schmuck in the party has to fight something SIX times?
Not exactly. Each character randomly chooses a character to encounter the demon. So only if you're really unlucky will one character have to fight all of them.
Fighting something six times isn't as much of an issue as potentially fighting it twice - say, in a group of three or four, where that's more likely than in a group of six. For warriors that isn't a huge deal, but there are often times when non-sorcerous casters have only one Attack spell in-hand (e.g., Enora and Sharda).

It's more likely that SOMEONE will get more than one, but it's also more likely that any given character will fight none, as the number of characters increases. It's also more likely, depending on party comp, that a larger party has sufficient assist capability to compensate.

The chance of everyone getting exactly one is n!/(n^n), which trends downward toward zero as n increases.
Your chance to not get any (an empty sample) is ((n-1)/n)^n, which trends upward toward 1/e (36.788%).

Quote:
This barrier takes the part of the strategy of PACG that lets you control which characters face which encounters and throws it out the window.

Strategy? At the edge of the CHAOTIC!!! evil Abyss? Little servitor demons know only one strategy: close their eyes, pick a target, and nom the target's face.

Pathfinder ACG Developer

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When I played a game Tuesday and introduced folks to the set, a couple of them read Demonic Horde, thought about it, and for the rest of the night did _everything_ in their power to avoid it.

And I have to say, Mission Accomplished on mechanics evoking theme right there :)


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Lisa Stevens wrote:

We have been playing Wrath in my home game for a couple of weeks now (it pays to own the company sometimes) and all of us ABHOR that barrier. It seems we got it quite a bit in the early scenarios, but once we added in Deck 1, it hasn't shown up as much. But, yeah, HATE IT!

-Lisa

There's an arbor pun in there somewhere.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ugh, I'm starting to regret dropping my sub after S&S.

Any Siren equivalents?


Orbis Orboros wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:

We have been playing Wrath in my home game for a couple of weeks now (it pays to own the company sometimes) and all of us ABHOR that barrier. It seems we got it quite a bit in the early scenarios, but once we added in Deck 1, it hasn't shown up as much. But, yeah, HATE IT!

-Lisa

There's an arbor pun in there somewhere.

Any port in a storm 'ay?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Mechalibur wrote:
Ugh, I'm starting to regret dropping my sub after S&S.

You'll find we have the solution for that problem here.


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Lisa Stevens wrote:
PS: It is good to have cards that you hate in the game. Makes you feel really good when you overcome them. It is like triumphing against adversity.

Stuff like that fills me with dread more than actual hate; but I agree you need cards like this. The anxiety of going through a heavy-barrier deck and running across Crawling Cyclops Hand or Albatross Soup ensured I kept a blessing around for such occasions.

(As far as actual hate, I don't think I'll ever hate a card as much as I hate the Ivory Dice.)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Ok, I'm curious - what's so bad about the tree barrier? I'm not seeing it. Sure, everyone fights a slightly obnoxious tree with 1 before and 1 after combat damage, but the damage can be armored - am I missing something?

I've been playing solo Alain so I pretty easily get d10+2d8+2 for combat checks - is it that the 13 is tough to make for the whole group? I can see how things will get nasty later with the whole double veteran thing, but as of set 0-1 it doesn't seem too bad.


ryric wrote:

Ok, I'm curious - what's so bad about the tree barrier? I'm not seeing it. Sure, everyone fights a slightly obnoxious tree with 1 before and 1 after combat damage, but the damage can be armored - am I missing something?

I've been playing solo Alain so I pretty easily get d10+2d8+2 for combat checks - is it that the 13 is tough to make for the whole group? I can see how things will get nasty later with the whole double veteran thing, but as of set 0-1 it doesn't seem too bad.

Its awful for spell casters right now. Especially when its flipped as the first card of the game. Having to use spells right off the bat that doesn't involve explorations can set the whole game back.

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