Legends of Tomorrow


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I was always more of Marvel guy but always loved First comics (Jon Sable, freelance, Badger, Grimjack) back in my youth.
(I'm old)


Yes, Marik. You are. Since I don't know those ones. Also a Marvel Guy, but I read DC in the vain hope they'll make it so people have to spend money on both companies.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Why spend money on something you don't like? It only guarantees mediocrity.

If other people like it, they can support it. All due respect, but I sincerely doubt DC is relying upon your personal comic purchases to stay afloat.


Who said anything of spending money, DQ? I just go to "readcomicbooks" com and use that. :)


DQ, I wholly agree with your assessment of Mona.


Can someone explain how being buried 300' deep in snow, in the ice Age - ON EARTH - is colder than near absolute zero?

If a ship can function in deep space, then it can't get too cold for its engines to function.

Also:

Spoiler:
I knew EULA's were evil.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I missed some of the exposition, but my impression was part of the problem was being buried in the ice... The physical weight of it, not just the temperature. There was too much of it to break free easily without causing a bigger disaster or damaging the ship, and they were trying to conserve power until they came up with an unorthodox solution. The issue of the cold was secondary, because they were initially using minimal life support.

The slow melt caused by turning the heat back on let the break free safely (although I don't know if it would really work like that either, but it's enough I'm willing to handwave.

I really hope we're done with Gary and his frickin nipple. Mona not having an romantic subplot to be creepy about was tolerable. some of the teamwork theming felt like a retread of stuff they've already done. Brandon Routh is doing well evil.


I just want someone to send Neron back to Hell and take the rest of the morons with him.


DeathQuaker wrote:
I really hope we're done with Gary and his frickin nipple.

Agreed... I truly believe that is most times I've ever heard the word 'nipple' in a 30 minute period.... O.O

Did they think it would just get funnier the more they bring it up??

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I think they did, Phantom. I think they did.


They were seriously wrong...


DeathQuaker wrote:

I missed some of the exposition, but my impression was part of the problem was being buried in the ice... The physical weight of it, not just the temperature. There was too much of it to break free easily without causing a bigger disaster or damaging the ship, and they were trying to conserve power until they came up with an unorthodox solution. The issue of the cold was secondary, because they were initially using minimal life support.

The slow melt caused by turning the heat back on let the break free safely (although I don't know if it would really work like that either, but it's enough I'm willing to handwave.

I really hope we're done with Gary and his frickin nipple. Mona not having an romantic subplot to be creepy about was tolerable. some of the teamwork theming felt like a retread of stuff they've already done. Brandon Routh is doing well evil.

Routh was a decent villain on Chuck as well.


All I know is regardless of how good Routh does evil, it's still hurtful to me to have a demon like Neron NOT have his own kind of body or self.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

A LOT of plot-induced stupidity this episode. John should have known better than to trust the choice Satan offered. (Not a sentence you write every day). And Nora, daughter of Damien Darkh, DEFINITELY should have known better than to trust Tabitha. And Gary feeling left out does not justify him torturing his friends. Again we have someone engaging in extraordinarily disturbing behavior where the other characters have to mollify said behavior. Should they have been cruel to him? No. But cruelty does not justify cruelty in return, and unintended social misery definitely does not justify premeditated torture. I feel like there is someone on the writer's crew who was bullied but has become somewhat sociopathic in response and is endorsing answering abusive behavior with abuse, which is not how that cycle ends. Their logic, that people like Gary and Mona can threaten people simply because they've suffered socially, would suggest that people like the lost boys who harass women online are engaging in defensible behavior because they feel rejected by women.

This repeating theme of "it's okay to be abusive if you've been abused" is starting to feel intentional and thus really disturbing. Good thing there's only one more episode, or I'd stop watching now. And a shame because before some of this stuff really started ramping up, I was really enjoying this season. Now it's getting really uncomfortable to watch.

I want to add that I was seriously bullied through most of my childhood (like, from age 5 to age 18), not physically assaulted but emotionally bullied constantly. Sure, I have had fantasies about seeing my bullies get comeuppance. But I'd never actually act on that. First, because I like to think I'm better than them--I'll totally admit there's some sense of superiority there. And secondly, because I also managed over time to find real community and real friends, not by berating people into liking me, but by learning the very hard way of developing better social skills and learning to identify people who were kind rather than people who just wanted something from you, and finding healthy communities where kind people made up the network that formed said community. And in having that I know I have something real a lot of folks, including those bullies from my childhood, don't.

And indeed, Legends has always spoken to me because it was very much about found family and a bunch of misfits learning to accept each other and connect through overcoming difficulties together and slowly developing mutual respect and improving communication skills. This season is undoing all of that, and now seems to be espousing a "if you don't like the way people treat you, be horrible to them until they treat you better" message. It's getting really messed up.


To be fair, when they introduced Neron into the mix...I think the season went down hill rather quickly...


"When a Legend goes dark, we put them down"

That would have prevented the pointless "broke time" cliffhanger. Kill Mick, no need to break time.


Green,

Yeah....

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I don't remember, what did Mick do that warranted that?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I only caught about the last 20 minutes due to a stupid committee conference call. Will need to see the whole thing but hey, the dragon was cool.


The dragon was good. There was a nice Monitor cameo, but otherwise I'm just glad this season with magic is over and hopefully more time travel with some better plots comes along.

I am going to miss Zari though...but not really.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Is she going to be gone for good or will her disappearance/being replaced by her brother be addressed next season?

I like Zari a lot but with few exceptions, she was poorly used this season.


DeathQuaker wrote:
I don't remember, what did Mick do that warranted that?

Betrayed the team to the Legion of Doom, necessitating them breaking time.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Reading around, it looks like Zari will return, but her character, with its rewritten history, will be very different.

GD--thanks. I think that season I watched off and on, so I somehow missed that.


The first half of the seasons was definitely the better of the two. The second half, while it had a few bright sports like the Bollywood number, was more like the older seasons of LoT - a lot of stupidity and pointlessness (pointless annoying character, thy name is Gary).

It remains to be seen if John sticks around for the next season. Much though I like the character in general, I think I would prefer him to leave. He's better as a loner than a team player.


So I just noticed, Zari's brother was renamed. Amon "Orisis" Tomaz replaced with Behrad Tomaz.

I also recently noted that the show currently has 11 leads, and about half of them are actually DC Superheroes. I'm hoping next year we can jettison Ava, Gary, Mona, and Charlie as full timers (or completely in the case of Gary and Mona) and maybe add some more comic-based characters.


I dunno about Ava, but sure, the others can go. I want more DC super heroes. Like maybe Plastic Man perhaps?? Or even Phantom Girl??

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Charlie's become a valuable full member of the team over time, and I want to see her continued development, and see if her power develops more/returns. Ava is fine as a recurring character (but not lead)--as the connection to the Time Bureau and occasional source of angst for Sarah she's fine.

Gary and Mona though. They are the Wendy and Marvin of the Legends-verse in all the wrong ways. I get the sense they're supposed to be the "audience-identify"/"relatable" "normies" (Mona's lycanthropy aside) that draws us into the group... except they are totally unrelatable (and I'm a nerd who has often felt bullied and/or left out), are generally horrible narcissists, and generally do nothing but take screentime away from far better characters (many of whom are actually relatable and enjoyable-to-watch misfits and nerds and why I watch the show). When they were in small--very small--doses, they were fine, but they overtook far too much of the plot in the end. They feel like self-insert protagonists in a fanfiction, and they are deeply uncomfortable to watch as such. More to the point, the show did fine before with "audience connector" characters and will do much better without them. Screw Wendy and Marvin, we're here for the Superfriends.

If they remain major characters, I'm going to stop watching. I've got other things I can do with my evenings.


Gary and Mona just need to be done in small doses.

Charlie...not sure I'd see her as a valuable member so much as she's got some insights into magic. Which I think they don't need any more.


Thomas Seitz wrote:

Gary and Mona just need to be done in small doses.

Charlie...not sure I'd see her as a valuable member so much as she's got some insights into magic. Which I think they don't need any more.

Yeah, Charlie didn't do anything that Constantine wasn't also there for. And Time appropriate costumes... If she was a legitimate DC character I would cut some slack... Like I do for Steel, but as is I'm bored with her.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

As a shapeshifter she has unique capabilities the others don't (and her abilities seem to be returning)--no one else could have masqueraded as Nixon, for example--she's intelligent, she's a little bit wicked in an interesting way, and she has a good dynamic with the rest of the team.

Nate is as interesting as mayonnaise, I don't care if he has the same name as a DC character or not. I would much rather a decently written OC than a comic character who has all the charisma of a piece of dry toast.

Besides, Charlie could be a DC character that just hasn't been revealed yet. She was stuck in Amaya's form. We don't know her true form or name.


DQ,

If you're suggesting she's some how related to Durlans or even say Plastic Man or Ralph Dibny...I don't see it.

Steel/Nate I don't need to cut slack since he's got a) history skills and b) legit super powers.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I'm not suggesting those things in particular, no. How is shapeshifting not a "legit" superpower?

Dark Archive

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I hope we don't have to choose between them, but overall, I like the actress who played Amaya and is playing Charlie more than the one who plays Nate, so I'd rather see more of her. (And if I had to pick between Charlie and Constantine, no contest. I loved the Constantine show, but have not liked Constantine on *this* show nearly as much... He's not a team player. He wasn't designed as such. He's not written as such. He's more of an odd-man-out than Mick, and that takes effort!)

On the other hand, more development of Zari would be nice. She feels like she's gotten short shrift lately. It seems like her brother issues got resolved and she just sort of settled in and is kind of coasting on cruise control this season.

I don't even know about Ray. His character has changed so much from his initial appearance on Arrow to how much of a goofball idiot he is on this show that I fast-forward when he starts yapping.


Yeah it's kind of sad when the guy known to be pretty darn smart is more... goofy than smart.

DQ,

It's not that shapeshifting isn't legit...so much as I don't know that it's enough of a power to warrant making Charlie a super hero...


Nate has his moments, but agreed, he is very bland. It seemed, with his position in the credits that they were transitioning him out.

Of course, rumor has it that Legends has one season left - and it still will probably be a typical Legends short season. So odds are they won't make any major changes now.


Wait we're not getting a Legends replacement? So it will just be Batwoman, Flash and Supergirl?


There is still the Superman rumor - though that was potentially replacing Supergirl.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Ray has his moments. He definitely has been flanderized, though some of his treatment this season was pretty interesting. I wish he wasn't quite so goofy, but at the same time I remember early on Arrow he was a bit smarmy. I'd rather less goof but also not a return to smarm.

So, like, Mystique doesn't count as an effective superhero/villain? Is Batman (or Robin or Huntress or Green Arrow etc etc) not a superhero at all because he doesn't have any superpowers? Are there only certain kinds of powers that make one a superhero? What if somebody can fly and shoot lasers out of their eyes but never uses their powers except to microwave hot dogs and deliver them to far away places--are they a still superhero just because their powerset is standard? Conversely, if someone's only superpower is that they never get ill, but they still use any capability they have to fight evil where they can in a supernaturally influenced world, do they not count as a superhero because their power isn't flashy or "cool" by some randomly predefined standard? What defines "superhero"?

To me it's a hero who finds ways to fight off world-threatening foes, with whatever means they have, supernatural or otherwise; also any major protagonist in a superhero comic book type story regardless of actual powers. Charlie's work with the Legends counts IMO, and moreover she has room to grow, improve, and get stronger.

-----

As to the CW's superhero schedule, I can understand why you would (want to) forget it, but Arrow has also been renewed for an 8th season. It will be 10 episodes and I think end with the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover.

I expect Crisis may also set up potential new series.

I'm not sure Superman was going to replace Supergirl. Superman I think was going to be Clark and Lois superparenting their kid in space, while Supergirl remained the "Kryptonian protecting Earth" adventure.

Next year we are going to have Arrow (final season), Batwoman, Black Lightning, Legends of Tomorrow, the Flash, Supergirl. I expect some of these will be "off season" of other shows (so say, as a hypothetical example, while the Flash is on hiatus, they will show Black Lightning instead).

Again I think Crisis will probably set the stage for what the future will bring after that.


DQ,

I was more thinking about 2021 than 2019-2020...But thanks.

As for your question, is Batman a super hero? Well yes because he can fight Darkseid and win.

Also while Charlie MIGHT be a super hero...it's in the same way you might quantify pre-crisis Al Pratt before he got the atomic punching.


Anyone that doesn't think batman isn't a super hero has not read enough batman.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I wasn't arguing that, Vidmaster. I was using rhetoric.

And even Batman needed time to grow, develop,strengthen, and prep before he would be capable of taking on any new God. Every hero's journey has to start somewhere. My point about Charlie is she has the potential to get there. Fully formed superheroes are boring. Seeing ones in the making, from extremely unlikely backgrounds no less, is what is fun about watching this show. And is in fact the point of the show--it isn't about "typical" superheroes.

Indeed, Charlie's not a hero. She's a Legend.


I think DQ just wants me to admit defeat because I don't much care for Charlie....but in the interests of the show, I am interested in hearing a rumor that TWO of the New Gods MIGHT be joining the show...

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

If you don't like Charlie, you can just say so. :) But disliking her doesn't mean her powers or contributions aren't legit. But it is totally okay to dislike her! She is an unusual character and unlikely to appeal to those who prefer "paragon" sorts of characters (but this show is not going to have any "paragons" on it). I don't want Nate on the show because I think he's boring. I'm not going to invent reasons, however, why he doesn't belong because his powers or abilities don't fit into some random box of "what makes a superhero." He certainly belongs, I just don't like him.

New Gods? Where'd you hear that, I googled it and didn't find anything. Would be awesome if it were Barda and Mr. Miracle.


DQ,

It's just a rumor I saw I think on CBR. But it did indeed reference two best New Gods I know.

And yeah I'm not sure I like Charlie mostly because I don't see the need for her. Does she make contributions? Sure. But I'd much rather have someone like Doctor Occult or hell, Zatanna's Dad if they need extra magical help.


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DeathQuaker wrote:
If you don't like Charlie, you can just say so. :) But disliking her doesn't mean her powers or contributions aren't legit.

My point early about Charlie is that the waverider already has a thousand time appropriate costumes, the atom suit and a certified ninja. They've been doing infiltration missions from the beginning of the show without a problem.

Shapechange can be a genuine power, but it isn't one that the Legends have needed before now and would get along just fine without. And even if they brought in an actual DC character it would be different... but just a random homemade character... easy pass for me.

When Legends first started it was a team up of Atom, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, a black canary, Heat wave and Captain Cold led by Rip Hunter... As a comic fan that REALLY excited me. Now with Mona, Gary, Amaya and Charlie... it has almost completely abandoned their comic book roots. If I were in charge I would be making a point to scuttle anyone without solid comic or at least CW roots. I'd keep Ray, Sarah and Rory... maybe Constantine if we can think of a plot reason for him to be there... Add in Booster Gold and Blue Beetle maybe bring of Ralph Dibny. I'm loving that character lately and afraid he'll get lost in the shuffle over at Flash... But for a show called 'DC's Legends of Tomorrow...' I want it firmly and solidly set in DC.


phantom,

Technically Amaya has DC roots as one of the bearers of the Tanto totem...

But your point is valid in my eyes. Dunno about Blue Beetle or Booster since I'd prefer they have their own show. How about Metamorpho instead? Or maybe Atom Smasher?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Shapeshifting is 1000 times more useful than costumes. And as I already said, they already proved that in the recent episodes, where she replaced a character in a way none of their existing technologies or abilities have done. If you wanna just ignore what actually happened in the show to make a point, you're not really making a point, you're just being willfully obtuse.

I'd love to see Zatanna in Legends (a rumor I have seen) but she's too damn powerful for a show like this, and a little too mainstream--this is a show about misfits. If they're gonna bring in another powerful magic-user, I'd like to see Black Alice. Background and personality-wise, she'd be perfect for a show like this. Mind, between Nora Darkh and Constantine I think they have all the magic users they need.

(Nora still needs to be freed from being a fairy godmother, doesn't she?)

I have no problem in an off-the-wall show like this to include OCs as well as variations on existing comic book characters. After all, all comic book characters were OCs at some point and sometimes OCs introduced in a TV show end up being well done enough they get transferred to comics (major example being Harley Quinn; for Marvel we have Phil Coulson). And I'd rather a well written OC (e.g., IMO, Charlie) than a poorly written take on a comic book character (e.g., the Hawkpeople; the show improved a million times when they left). Not to mention... Sara is BARELY from the comics. She has the name of an Asian member of the League of Assassins (lots of problems with whitewashing there) and is the sister of a character from the comics who, in the comics, had no sister. And yet the show has made amazing use of her. My only argument for Charlie is she has potential to be more than she is and deserves a shot at getting better developed the way, say, Sara was.

Besides, what if she does turn out to be some Arrowversified version of Madam Rouge or something? If suddenly she has comic origins after all, does it make it okay?

Gary and Mona don't suck because they're not from the comics, they suck because they're horrible, harmful sociopaths whom the writers think are adorable for some reason. (Charlie is also a very grey area character but the difference is she's aware of what side she's on, and recognizes when she's being manipulative.)

That said as far as existing comic-based characters on the CW, I'd LOVE to see them transfer Ralph Dibney to the Legends. He'd be far more entertaining with them than on the increasingly drab and repetitive Flash.

I'd also trade off Charlie for a different Charlie -- the DC hero Misfit, who has a teleportation power that would be easy to do special effects wise and fit in very well with the group. She could also easily replace Mona as the young woman struggling to fit in and be far more likable about it.

But I've liked some of the original characters they've given us--Ava in particular. I'm not going to write off characters just for not being in the comics--every medium allows for new variations. And again, sometimes TV shows, movies, and animated series have brought us original characters who ended up being so great they were then transported to comics. My only interest is seeing a character with some potential have that opportunity (and then if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out).


Thomas Seitz wrote:

phantom,

Technically Amaya has DC roots as one of the bearers of the Tanto totem...

But your point is valid in my eyes. Dunno about Blue Beetle or Booster since I'd prefer they have their own show. How about Metamorpho instead? Or maybe Atom Smasher?

They could be fun, but FX intensive... especially metamorpho. If they couldn't keep firestorm around I doubt we'd get him...

Beetle and Booster though... I just think they'd REALLY fit in. I heard someone talking about Booster getting his own show and it'd be basically time travel shenanigans where he spends a lot of time trying to fix his mistakes.. and heck, we already HAVE that show. He'd be perfect for Legends.

On a similar note... one thing I'd love to focus more on is a wider range of time periods. I loved when we had Rip Hunter, Hawkman, and WWII Vixen running around. For a team based entirely on a time ship fixing time... they don't need to all be from 2018. {The idea of the Time bureau being tied to a 2018 government funding is ridiculous... the tech and Rip were from far in the future... a time police shouldn't be bound to that. The Time Masters and Vanishing point was the right idea for that kind of organization. } But yeah, get a few more future people and a couple more from the past... Maybe bring back Jonah Hex for a season?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I agree, I like having a number of people from different times, makes it interesting and helps provide perspective. Jonah Hex's return would be great. I know she doesn't have any powers, but I'd love to see Zinda Blake (Lady Blackhawk), purely personality wise, with the Legends. Maybe she could learn how to pilot the Waverider. :)

Also, Supergirl introduced the Legion, so we could bring in more characters from that time period/team, including alternate Earth versions of the Legion.

Only issue with Blue Beetle is he was disallowed by the powers that be to be used by the Arrowverse -- Ray Palmer was actually originally supposed to be Ted Kord, which is why he ran a tech company and his suit originally didn't have the shrinking power. They wouldn't let them use Ted, so they turned the character into the Atom for their plotting. (Probably also why his personality has changed so much.) Now, I think whatever reason they had for not using him is actually null now, but bringing him in would probably mean getting rid of Ray since he fills the nerdy tech guy with a supersuit niche. I love Blue Beetle (also the Jaime version) but I don't know if that's gonna happen.

Rumors regarding Booster are that he is going to get his own movie, so it is possible he will also not show up on TV (I think IIRC that's why we had Rip instead).

Zari and her brother are from the future, at least. I'm not sure when Charlie is supposed to be from, she wasn't originally from 1980s Britain, she got yanked there. More variety would be cool. Especially if there are characters that replace Gary and Mona.


I'm totally down for Misfit, since she also could disguise herself as Batgirl. :p

But in any case, Black Alice is a good choice for this because it would give them something else to do. Especially since she can often be a hindrance than help.

Unless we want Klarion the Witch Boy perhaps? There's also Doctor Occult...

But for less magic figures and more from the future, maybe someone like Dawnstar if you want a less well know Legionnaire. There's the original Karate Kid, Val Armorr...

That's about all I can think of...

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