hi guys,
last night we were faced with a situation that made some of the players at our table upset. we were in a dungeon and we found a well. a fellow pc and myself detected magic inside. we lowered the monk into the water and planned if he was in trouble he would yank on the rope. the monk's perception shows an undead skeleton wearing magic items stuck on bottom of well pinned under a rock. we pull him up and send the cleric down to deal with it. hovering out of the skeleton's reach he channels till the undead is killed and then collects magic item. when he is pulled up, the gm awards him solo experience for killing the skeletal champion.( 600 experience points)
has this come up in any of your games?
other players have said to me that if that's the way its going to go from now on ......they would be inclined to adventure away from party, win initiative and try to one-hit kill, shut doors in battle to take all monsters for themselves.
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Two minds here
1) what did your GM think would happen....
2) sure go ahead, split the party, because that works in movies....
:-D
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We only do single party xp now. If players don't show up, they still get xp. This way everyone stays at the same level.
we started to give experience after battles because two different players sometimes showed up later to table because of work commitments. i always felt that the experience should always be split evenly with all players. i know that one player has complained that tardy players should not get experience for fights and encounters they missed early in the session. hmmmm, the cleric is the one who said that....hmmmm, he's the one who got the solo experience...hmmm, he's the guy who asked the gm two weeks ago if we get more experience per character because one pc died .
it smells like rotten fish...
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I think the GM need to be told that this will not make folks cooperate but turn the game in to a contest.
Ultimately it is his decision, but the one he seem to have taken is a bad one. IMOP.
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we started to give experience after battles because two different players sometimes showed up later to table because of work commitments.
While not horrible in older D&D systems (though I never liked it anyway) - that doesn't really work at all in Pathfinder.
In 3rd edition, how much EXP a character got for a challenge was based upon not just CR, but their level. Therefore, if a character was a level or two behind, they'd catch up quickly.
In older editions, each level took exponentially more exp than the previous, so missing a fight or two didn't put you significantly behind for long.
Neither of those things is true in Pathfinder, so the exp loss remains significant and there's no 'catch up' mechanism.
In this case though - none of that applies since all of the characters were there and participating.
I think the GM need to be told that this will not make folks cooperate but turn the game in to a contest.
Ultimately it is his decision, but the one he seem to have taken is a bad one. IMOP.
agree
it's going to force the players to become treasure/experience piranhas. it's going to cause each player to constantly remind the other pcs of how much THEY did in battle and why THEY should get more rewards (exp and treasure).i said to the gm off to the side that solo experience is a slippery slope that will cause more harm than good. He shrugged shoulders with no reply. I wonder if he wants to run 6 different encounters in 6 different places in the dungeon?
Get out while you can, it's not going to end well for anyone :-)
Sorry, that sucks!
Get out while you can, it's not going to end well for anyone :-)
Sorry, that sucks!
ty captain
we are trying to put out this flaming dumpster fire.....
we started to give experience after battles because two different players sometimes showed up later to table because of work commitments.While not horrible in older D&D systems (though I never liked it anyway) - that doesn't really work at all in Pathfinder.
In 3rd edition, how much EXP a character got for a challenge was based upon not just CR, but their level. Therefore, if a character was a level or two behind, they'd catch up quickly.
In older editions, each level took exponentially more exp than the previous, so missing a fight or two didn't put you significantly behind for long.
Neither of those things is true in Pathfinder, so the exp loss remains significant and there's no 'catch up' mechanism.
In this case though - none of that applies since all of the characters where there and participating.
I agree it takes a special kind og GM to make that work. And it is generally a bad ide even for that kind of GM.
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James Jacobs Creative Director Jun 20, 2011, 11:20 pm | FLAG | LIST
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James Jacobs
If you're running a solo game for a PC, give them the full XP award. They'll level up faster, but they'll need to level up faster.
If you're running a solo game for a PC as a side mission in a full campaign with other players, I STRONGLY suggest that you split the XP up among all the players... even ones who didn't take part in the solo mission. It's not the way the rules would imply it's done, I know... but it DOES help to keep the idea that it's a group activity going. That way, other players should be happy and delighted that one of their own accomplished something, since it helped everyone. It's no fun to have the one player who likes going on extra-credit missions suddenly be super high level compared to the rest of the party.
Another issue I can see happening is that certain characters can have an advantage with this type of situation (ie solo killing) and if they are gaining experience beyond their party they will eventually become strong enough to continue doing this without worry as the other players will pull down the APL and thus the CR of encounters. Meaning that eventually EVERY challenge will be overcome by the POWEERFUL cleric (or Godlic) while the underpowered party members (who have essentially become companions or minions or followers) have little chance on contributing in any meaningful way to a situation.
Which doesn't sound fun for anyone. The DM isn't able to challenge the Godlic- and overcoming the followers will be too easy, The followers aren't able to competently assist in battle and REQUIRE the Godlic for protection, and nothing provides a challenge to the Godlic. Blek!
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Any meta rule (something that isnt an in world thing) that influences player behavior is bad. XP doesnt exist in world, but it does in players minds. In my opinion the game would be better without it entirely, but if you are going to use it, it has to be even. Otherwise it encourages negative behaviors (like anti social anti teamwork) and that literally never ends well.
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From my DMing experience:
Since the whole party was involved in the defeat of the skeleton, the whole party would split the xp. The monk dropped down the rope first, the others held the rope, and the cleric ultimately killed it. The whole party played a role, the whole party gets xp.
I do individual experience for individual days shown up, with downtime rules to allow noshow characters to catch up. In my mind, it isn't fair to people who show up regularly to have Tardy McNeverthere always be at the same experience as them. I also hand out certain awards to solo characters (such as story awards that normally are split amongst the party, only relevant characters get, though everyone is given an equal chance at achieving them).
I find individual experience to give players more drive to be involved, and helps cut down on the "whatever, the bard will just do the talking, the wizard's writing everything down" kind of indifferent mentality.
As a player who has gotten solo experience before, I evened myself out. I did an adventure solo because I had skills/talents/magic that deflected the WHOLE party from A) diminishing their resources, B) I could do it SO much faster and simpler on my own, and C) it was funnier the way I did it.
After that we had more time in the session day to complete another encounter but my character "wrapped up" things with the current one. Something that benefitted the party, while also taking me out of the next battle. XP leveled out all around (and it threw a monkey wrench in the DMs plan because the 2nd encounter I would have been a liability.
It isn't a PERFECT solution, but something the party might agree to in order to artificialize balance?
This is a tricky problem.
Player is late or absent, do you let their character be involved? Yes supports the narrative, no simplifies things for a harried GM. (Who runs the character? Does the player have some right to veto choices made in the player's absence?)
Player absent, character present, does character get XP? Yes supports the narrative and keeps party all of-a-level, no guides the narrative toward the underlevelled PC exiting the stage (but that assumes the player is gone for good, perhaps it causes the player be gone for good).
Player absent, character absent, does character get XP? This is not a trick question, just a tricky situation. On any particular night, we'd like to all be similarly powerful. We all see the folly of mixed power levels in a game that assumes otherwise.
If you think your late-coming players are a problem, I have co-players who miss three sessions and then complain of falling behind in their concept and growth. Other co-players who run off on a tangent and narratively trap their character away from the party (And then run an absent player's character...). We're running a sandbox, and the sand gets in the gears. :)
Back in the days of random stats, long before WBL 20-pt characters and such assumed and regulated regularities, a new character was 1st level, even if the party was higher. They caught up quickly. It was no big deal. It doesn't need to be a big deal, now.
Unless one sees the regulated regularities as a right.
Speaking to the OP, though? That team earned that XP.
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How much XP would you all get for ganking the cleric?
I like your way of thinking quibble! That said, I could see the cleric getting a little extra exp on the side, since he technically killed it alone, but I also agree that the party should have gotten a equal amount of exp, discounting the bonus.
Also, I find that having the other players control their friends character doesn't tend to turn out that well. Whenever my buddies do that with my character, my character tends to develop a reckless streak.
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I like your way of thinking quibble! That said, I could see the cleric getting a little extra exp on the side, since he technically killed it alone, but I also agree that the party should have gotten a equal amount of exp, discounting the bonus.
even a little bonus is saying, that the monk took a wrong decision in not attacking the skeleton alone. And that is a sad and sorry signal to send.
How much XP would you all get for ganking the cleric?
we just might encourage him to retire his character and bathe everyday in his experience and colorful stories of his adventuring past lol
Rather than splitting up the "Total XP" in this table, I use the "Individual XP" based on group size. This bumps up the effective total XP and encourages the group to fight together as opposed to going solo. Now, while splitting the group into parties of 3 might maximize XP gained, it might also increase the challenge, and if players are doing that it could be a symptom that they want more challenge -- my suggestion to handling this is to reshape encounters; bump up the CR for the whole group would face a more challenging encounter (as a side effect they will also get more XP).
Now, it seems to me that the fundamental problem is that the cleric is a min-maxer; I have been one in the past, and it is so much better to be free of these bonds... My suggestion is to maim/cripple the cleric for a while and teach the player to like the flawed character. By the way, if the player's attitude is in some way affecting the way the cleric is played, and if the cleric's attitude does not align with the deity's precept, that is a very good excuse, I mean, reason, to teach the cleric a lesson :)
Also, note some downtime rules that might mitigate the XP issue for the players who might miss a session because of work, etc. I think it's bad enough for them to have missed the session already, it's not nice to penalize them in game.
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I like your way of thinking quibble! That said, I could see the cleric getting a little extra exp on the side, since he technically killed it alone, but I also agree that the party should have gotten a equal amount of exp, discounting the bonus.even a little bonus is saying, that the monk took a wrong decision in not attacking the skeleton alone. And that is a sad and sorry signal to send.
the monk told me later he would of attacked the skeleton if he knew he was getting solo experience.....slippery slope
forget teamwork, i'm going for the big wad of exp myself!!!!
This (and many other examples) is why it is best to ditch XP and level players when appropriate. That pretty much solves all of these kinds of nonsense problems.
If the GM is going to do this, he is going to create a competitive atmosphere for the players. It is going to end badly... unless the GM is super careful to give everyone equal opportunity to get these "extra" XP awards. However, if he is going to go through that much trouble, then he already doing the same as just splitting the award among the party.
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So, the GM put a trapped undead creature at the bottom of a well, in a situation such that the cleric could kill it without facing any real risk, and still awarded XP for it? And did so solely to the cleric?
I assume the cleric player is offering the GM sexual favors or bribe money to explain that kind of decision.
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Since people are giving opinions on the OP... If the cleric was never really in danger, that should be considered an easy encounter, and be given CR = APL - 1 (note that calculating the APL depends on the party size considered). I would not even worry that I would be giving solo XP on an easy encounter (if he is level 2, his solo APL is 1 and the encounter would be CR 1/2 which would give him 65 XP).
Or you can just realize that the whole party tackled the encounter effectively by being creative and then award XP to the whole party based on the intended CR of the encounter.
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Very Old School.
However, in this case, as the rest of the party was there, bad-wrong-fun.
If you are playing Hackmaster though, then the GM is doing it correctly and you all should be penalized XP for complaining.
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Yeah, well, Hackmaster is really a game that parodies the worst of old school gaming behavior by accentuating it.
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I like your way of thinking quibble! That said, I could see the cleric getting a little extra exp on the side, since he technically killed it alone, but I also agree that the party should have gotten a equal amount of exp, discounting the bonus.even a little bonus is saying, that the monk took a wrong decision in not attacking the skeleton alone. And that is a sad and sorry signal to send.the monk told me later he would of attacked the skeleton if he knew he was getting solo experience.....slippery slope
forget teamwork, i'm going for the big wad of exp myself!!!!
Well, I think the cleric would have disappointed to be dropped in that well and forced to fight the skeleton underwater by themselves. Does battlefield support/control not earn XP in this game?
I like your way of thinking quibble! That said, I could see the cleric getting a little extra exp on the side, since he technically killed it alone, but I also agree that the party should have gotten a equal amount of exp, discounting the bonus.even a little bonus is saying, that the monk took a wrong decision in not attacking the skeleton alone. And that is a sad and sorry signal to send.the monk told me later he would of attacked the skeleton if he knew he was getting solo experience.....slippery slope
forget teamwork, i'm going for the big wad of exp myself!!!!
Well, I think the cleric would have disappointed to be dropped in that well and forced to fight the skeleton underwater by themselves. Does battlefield support/control not earn XP in this game?
If it dosent the cleric is most likely far behind the others at this point:)
So, the GM put a trapped undead creature at the bottom of a well, in a situation such that the cleric could kill it without facing any real risk, and still awarded XP for it? And did so solely to the cleric?
I assume the cleric player is offering the GM sexual favors or bribe money to explain that kind of decision.
he did give him a Captain America action figure mint in box before the session started.....
That's how we did it back in the old days. No one complained.
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I think the GM made a really bad decision and reflects a bad perspective on the game. If "participation" is only based on dealing damage and killing things then it wipes out a lot of game play. Some people are buffers or faces or skill monkeys and combat isn't always something they contribute to. That was an extremely inappropriate decision to ignore the contributions of the rest of that group in that encounter that began upon finding the well.
Get a new GM if conversation doesn't appear to be working.
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How much XP would you all get for ganking the cleric?
If that doesnt work, poison the other player's glasses. Yes, at the table. It's what your Gm is hinting at, I bet some of the others are planning nefariously how to take you out...see that glance?! He must have a knife hidden.
QUICK, ACT NOW AND GET RID OF THE COMPETITION!
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Everyone has different definitions for Munchkin/Optimizer/Minmaxer, it's one of the things the gaming community can't seem to pin down.
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Bran, are you serious or was that for comedic effect? Has the DM responded to the rest of the party's disappointment?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Sometimes, bad ideas work out.
Sometimes, a toddler opens multiple kitchen drawers to form a staircase in order to enable his ascent to the cupboard... and comes out of the experience entirely successful.
Sometimes, a driver assumes that there won't be any cross-traffic at this time of day and runs the stop sign... and nobody gets hurt.
Sometimes, a parent thinks their child couldn't possibly get into trouble in the few minutes they're not looking... and the child stays put.
Sometimes, the 8 STR wizard decides to bull rush a demon off a ledge... and rolls a natural 20.
Sometimes, GMs decide to use solo XP... and the campaign doesn't implode.
Sometimes, bad ideas work out.
But they're still bad ideas, and the person who can recognize this is still far wiser than the person who thinks it must not be a bad idea at all simply because they've seen it work out in the past.
Everyone has different definitions for Munchkin/Optimizer/Minmaxer, it's one of the things the gaming community can't seem to pin down.
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Bran, are you serious or was that for comedic effect? Has the DM responded to the rest of the party's disappointment?
serious about giving him a capt america figure....yes
serious about ? please explain
gm is not responding to this as of yet.
he's on fence about continuing as the gm because he feels we are all too hard on him because he makes too many mistakes regarding the rules of pathfinder. there is two of us at the table who have run games before. we constantly help him with finding rules on the fly with our laptops/tablets while he pours over a stack of 10 hardcover books. he means well, but he doesn't do his homework before each week. last night he was telling us a incorporeal wraith has 50% concealment miss chance on ALL attacks including magic weapons. we explained that magic weapons do half damage. he got real irritated and couldn't produce the ruling as we pulled up incorporeal traits in 5 seconds on our computers. grapple rules are beyond his understanding, has to be constantly reminded what a full-round action and standard action is, and generally wings every session without doing any studying of homework.
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That's how we did it back in the old days. No one complained.
Yep, 1st ed was all about who got in the final blow and felled the monster. You contributed 50 hp but the thief felled it with his dagger for 4 hp? Thief gets 100% of the xp. People used to haggle over magic items, too, because of the xp they were awarded for receiving them.
I'm glad those days are long behind us/our group. Now we split xp evenly for encounters among all party members, even absent ones. I didn't always used to do that, but we're mature gamers these days and folks show up if they honestly can. No reason to penalize friends if they can't make a session.
That's how we did it back in the old days. No one complained.Yep, 1st ed was all about who got in the final blow and felled the monster. You contributed 50 hp but the thief felled it with his dagger for 4 hp? Thief gets 100% of the xp. People used to haggle over magic items, too, because of the xp they were awarded for receiving them.
I'm glad those days are long behind us/our group. Now we split xp evenly for encounters among all party members, even absent ones. I didn't always used to do that, but we're mature gamers these days and folks show up if they honestly can. No reason to penalize friends if they can't make a session.
we don't get exp points for town sessions, gathering info, skill checks that prove useful, etc. now we have to worry about one player getting solo exp?
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So basically there is straight up bribery happening (unless he just stopped by the shop to pick it up and the DM is recouping his expense, or it was a b-day etc).
You and the other players should talk to the DM and the other player and let him know how you feel about the exp system in place. If they don't want to change it, you don't have to play it.
I mean, you can try to game it to your advantage.
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"I'll scout ahead."
*hits a few goblins as targets of opportunity, flees back to the group pursued by a horde*
"Worth it, I got solo exp!"
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But that doesn't sound like the experience you and the others want.
If the monk feeds on the cleric's blood until the cleric dies, does he get the cleric's XP?
If the monk feeds on the cleric's blood until the cleric dies, does he get the cleric's XP?
i'm sure the gm would have to look thru 30 books to make a ruling on that..lol