(PFS) Questions about the best Eidolon for a regular Summoner


Advice


I am making a Summoneras my next PFS character.

Zander
Gnome Summoner

STR 6
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 18 All attribute points go into Charisma

Feats
1) Spell Focus (Conjuration)
3) Augment Summoning
5) Extra Evolution
7) Extra Evolution
9) Extra Evolution

Skills: Knowledge (planes), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device

Traits: ??? No clue what traits to pick

Now on to the Eidolon.

I am torn between the Quadruped and the Biped. I like the higher Strength and better Will save on the Biped. However the Quadruped can learn Pounce.

Any suggestions and/or criticisms are appreciated.


What exactly do u want the sirloin to do? Just damage, tank/flank buddy, skillbot, utility, a bit of everything?


Mainly just tank and do damage. Oh yeah, the other thing Biped had going for it is increased reach when he gets Large.

I was going to spend my eidolon skill points on Acrobatics, Perception, Sense Motive, and split between Climb, Fly, and Swim.


For a beatstick, a quadruped eidolon with many claw attacks and pounce is the best choice.


I have a gnome summoner in PFS, 10 or 11, pretty similar. I went with a biped to avoid monopolizing the table with the constant pounce 5 attack thing and even still I get some flak. My 2 cents:

When considering reach think if you really want to go large permanently. PFS is designed for medium characters and being large will be a hindrance sometimes.

Social scenarios. It depends how your area runs them as what is and isnt allowed is never made clear. Animal companions are usually asked to wait outside, a biped eidolon could maybe pass in some instances where a quadruped couldnt.

Stats. Keeping my to hit up is a challenge. Two extra strength may not be a lot but I am glad to have it. By far the most dangerous thing a gm can say to me is for my eidolon to make a will save.

Secondary role: There will come a time when something has high dr that you cant really do much to. I found having a reach/trip focus at least let me try to be effective at something else.

Pounce: I dont know your players but around here getting to pounce is not a given. Assume your charge lanes will be blocked.

Maybe its just me but pfs writers seem to love shadows. I wouldnt be comfortable with a strength that low. Anyway summoners are so good that unless you are purposefully trying to mess him up your character will be fine.


What are some good traits for the Summoner?

Shadow Lodge

MatthewN wrote:

Gnome Summoner

STR 6
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 18 All attribute points go into Charisma

So how do you feel about moving 15ft in light armor?

Really not sure why you want to bump your charisma up so high either, there aren't that many good offensive spells for a summoner, most of it is support.

Your gnome won't be doing much in combat, at all in the early levels, I would recommend changing some of the stats so you can at least aid another in combat reliably. Going a halfling and getting the trait that boosts the bonus from aid another from +2 to +4 is really good for that. Throw in Arcane strike and you should be fairly good with Aid another

MatthewN wrote:

Feats

1) Spell Focus (Conjuration)
3) Augment Summoning
5) Extra Evolution
7) Extra Evolution
9) Extra Evolution

Augment Summoning doesn't work on Eidolon unless they are summoned through Summon Eidolon.

Although it does help for when your Eidolon goes down and you need to resort to your Summon Monster ability.

You can't take Extra Evolution 3 times by 9th level.

Extra Evolution wrote:
Special: This evolution can be taken once at 1st level, and again at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.

If you're wanting to focus on your Eidolon perhaps make him a Half-Elf, their favored class bonus gives them about the same amount of Evolution points as the feat.

Dark Archive

I have a PFS gnome summoner with a 5 str but otherwise similar stats and feats selected. My summoner is currently level 3 but is a pfs adapted rebuild of an 8th level (and infinitely more abusive) version of him.

I went with a quadruped and yeah, I have some claw attacks but mostly care about bite (and intend to get more). Bites count as all 4 damage types and will allow you to get through the majority of types of damage reduction you will experience. Since everybody and their mother is a carbon copy of the same general themes, no one uses war hammers, maces, etc. so the bludgeoning damage from a bite will matter more often than you'd expect.

Also ignore every single comment about not being able to pierce damage reduction in general. I hear this lame statement about eidolons and monks constantly and it just is not true. High str builds (16+ Starting str) will begin piercing dr 10/-whatever consistently and only get better at it with time. My future monk deals 6-9 average unmodified damage through all but stupid dr (15+), and another 7 on 1-2 atks per round all this before power attack comes in and not counting anything that could bypass dr (although his unarmed atks can bypass some). And each version of my summoner never had issues with any monster which had dr. But then I actually paid attention to the bite attack.

As a summoner, there are two things you should know before you make it (or even ask advice).

They are:
1.) what do I want my summoner to do?
2.) what do I want my eidolon to do?

If you know these answers, then picking evolutions, feats, spells and gear becomes much easier than: hey, I have this summoner, what should I do with it?

My new version of my old summoner decided to go with tag team battlefield control. We have a shild bashing bull rushing fighter (future paladin) as part of our team.
The eidolon and fighter have bull rush and push related feats and evoltions, respectively, while the summoner has grease and will get the pit chain of spells, wall of fire, wall of ice , etc. the idea being to force targets to constantly save until they fail, especially since summoner dc's don't go too high but they do go just high enough.

To that end, spell focus conjurations and greater spell focus are important, as is having an absurdly high charisma, both for the additional cd but also for the extra spells to spam.

I already know that things which expand my spell selection and can give me access to magics off my spell list but better or more versatile control options are prime interests to me. So my feats and evolutions are all going to follow an obvious track.

I know I want improved initiative and reactionary (trait) because going first with a build like this utterly dictates the tone of the entire fight (putting my party at an advantage). As of right now my summoner has a +9 initiative at level 3 and the fighter and eidolon have forced opponents into grease every single round until they dropped from damage.

You can make a lot of different summoner types. I suggest being creative and finding something neat to focus on. The class is hard to make sucky.


I know Augment Summoning doesn't work on the Eidolon. I picked it for when I have to Summon Monsters.

I guess I will have to pick a different feat for 9th level.

I thought a lot about the Half Elf. The favored class bonus is very tempting but I just like the flavor of the Gnome better.

My goal for my Summoner is to buff my Eidolon and then provide battlefield control.


Im not saying every other encounter you will encounter DR that you can never hope to get through but it is something you will have to pay much more attention to than other characters.

At level 3 I fought a large earth elemental, DR 5/-. With PA and 16 starting str I was doing dice dmg only.

At level 7 I fought a Imentesh, DR 10/lawful. STR 24&PA I was doing dice+1. It was resistant or immune to my elemental dmg on the attacks and wasnt evil so no holy dmg.

In the year of the demon especially a lot of lower level modules will feed you cold iron (or silver) weapons to make sure you can pass DR. At higher levels where other characters can oil of bless weapon (or oil of align weapon) their one weapon and keep on going you cant afford to do that to 5 natural attacks.

Claws also do bludgeoning damage.

I dont know the play mentality where you are. Here I would avoid having my summoners initiative too much higher than my eidolons or the GM will have the run on separate counts.

These are all very small considerations. For the bulk of PFS that is gobbling up apl-3 mooks it wont matter if you have an extra evolution point or if your str is 2 higher or lower. You will rock face and still have a (practically) full caster character.

Sczarni

Because you have a high charisma I would consider:

1) Noble Scion (War) Charisma Modifier in place of Dexterity Modifier to Initiative Checks
3) Spell Focus (Conjuration)
5) Improved Spell Focus (Conjuration)
7) Improved Initiative
9) Spell Penetration.
11) Greater Spell Penetration

EDIT:Traits
Reactionary +2 to Initiative
Observant: +1 to Perception, Perception a Class Skill OR
Adopted: Halfling: Helpful (Halfling) +4 bonus to others on a successful Aid Other action.

Adopted -> Helpful(Halfling) will be a better choice in general, I think. Perception is the most rolled skill in the game and a +4 in the skill for a trait (assuming you put ranks in this) seems like one hell of a bargain to me. Then again, one skilled evolution, and your Eidolon can rock out +12 at level 1, so . . . yeah. Helpful.
/Edit

Battle field control is very, very initiative dependent. It simply works best if you go first.

Control spells often have attached DCs so the Spell Focus feats will help a lot.

Spell Pen is often underrated. Nothing is worse than wasting one of your precious few spell slots to cast something that bounces of SR.

As far as Augment Summoning and the rest of its ilk, I would avoid simply because your Eidolon will always be your go to summoned beastie, and you cannot summon with him out. That makes the advantage of those feats amazingly circumstantial.

For the Eidolon, I think Quadruped has a great number of advantages over biped. As already stated above, PFS is written for Medium Sized people. Medium Sized Eidolons can go anywhere medium sized people can go, but large will face some serious issues at times. A medium size can also function as a mount, which is great for you with a Str of <7. Encumbrance matters in PFS, so having the bonus to carry capacity on the eidolon will be of value. The ability to mount up to get to a decent speed will have value to you. Pounce will have value to you as well.

Oh, and buy a Circlet of Persuasion as soon as possible.

Shadow Lodge

Akinra wrote:

3) Spell Focus (Conjuration)

5) Improved Spell Focus (Conjuration)
7) Improved Initiative
9) Spell Penetration.
11) Greater Spell Penetration

Control spells often have attached DCs so the Spell Focus feats will help a lot.

Concerning battlefield control, Grease and the Create Pit spells are fairly useful for this, even with low DCs. I can think of a few uses where even wands of create pit and grease are going to help.

Blocking charge lanes with either spell.
removing flanks with create pit, (cast it under that pesty flanking rouge's feet, if he makes the save he needs to jump into another square, if he doesn't[which is unlikely] he's in the pit, win/win here)
Grease disarmed weapons, (actually done this before, very effective) even with a DC 11 reflex save that's something they need to do every round or drop the weapon.
Greasing up grappled allies is something that does not need a saving throw either.

But regarding spell DCs I find that the summoner doesn't have many spells that are helped by a high DC/charisma score, in fact I'll list them here:
Level 1
Grease, yeah yeah I mentioned that this is one you can get away with a low DC, but it's even better with a high DC when you want to disarm/trip some one.

Level 2
Create pit, good if you want to actually put people in the pit
Glitterdust, making people blind? awesome! revealing invisible creatures without a save or SR check? hell this one is useful on a wand as well.

Level 3
Aqueous Orb
Charm Monster
Control Summoned Creature
Mad Monkeys
Spiked Pit

Level 4
Acid Pit
Baleful Polymorph
Dismissal
Hold Monster
Hostile Juxtaposition
Magic Jar
Summoner Conduit

Level 5
Banishment
Plane Shift
Repulsion
Tar Pool

Level 6
Antipathy
Binding
Charm Monster, Mass
Hostile Juxtaposition, Greater
Incendiary Cloud
Maze
Sympathy
Planar Binding, Greater

Now considering this is for PFS level 5 and 6 spells don't matter and there are a few spells there that are so circumstantial that Summoners probably shouldn't pick them up (looking at you Dismissal, Control Summoned Creature and Summoner Conduit). Then we have the spells that aren't that good in general; Hostile Juxtaposition and Aqueous Orb(pitiful 2d6 non-lethal damage a round and a save each round to get out of it) That brings us to 10 good/okay spells that need save DCs (Grease, Pit spells, Glitter Dust, Charm Monster, Mad Monkeys, Baleful Polymorph, Hold Monster, Magic Jar)

Now consider all the useful spells that don't need a save DC/charisma;
Level 1
Enlarge person, works on your Eidolon
Mage Armor
Shield

Level 2
Evolution Surge, Lesser
Haste
Invisibility
See Invisibility
Summon Eidolon

Level 3
Black Tentacles
Dimension Door
Dispel Magic
Evolution Surge
Fly
Invisibility, Greater
Resist Energy, would consider this as a scroll but as it's effectiveness increases with caster level it's pretty damn useful, but use a scroll if you have or plan on getting a Mnemonic Vestment.
Wall of Fire
Wall of Ice

Level 4
Evolution Surge, Greater
Purified Calling
Wall of Stone

Not going to go further than that for the spells that don't need high DCs/charisma because this is just taking to long and doesn't apply to PFS, but you get my point I hope(I probably missed some other spells as well). Some of these spells could probably go on scrolls or wands (Shield, Enlarge Person, Lesser Evolution Surge, Purified Calling)but you don't want to spend all of your cash on consumables.

Akinra wrote:
As far as Augment Summoning and the rest of its ilk, I would avoid simply because your Eidolon will always be your go to summoned beastie, and you cannot summon with him out. That makes the advantage of those feats amazingly circumstantial.

Considering demons and other nasties with DR the summon monster ability can be very, very handy replacement for your Eidolon, making Augment Summoning fairly useful. Make sure you put points into linguistics and get the elemental languages as well as celestial, infernal and abyssal, maybe alko as well. Also in the sad event that something puts your Eidolon down being able to summon stronger monsters is a damn good thing.

My last thought on high charisma summoners for tonight is that even with a very large investment in charisma (20+) compared to a low investment (14-16) you're not going to come off much better in spells per day, maybe 3 to 5 extra spells a day in the end. One of the biggest advantages of a summoner is the action economy. Now some people might cry out about Druids, Clerics/Inquisitor with the animal domain and Sylvan Sorcerers but these animal companions aren't as smart nor do they have as many skills as your Eidolon. Don't waste such a good advantage, jump into combat with a reach weapon, use aid another (halflings are awesome for this and it stacks with everything!) or just try to do some damage. You might not be that combat effective but it sure beats casting guidance(only useful for saves once you have a bard in the party) or resistance(useless if your target has a cloak of resistance) on people because you ran out of spells at an early level or during a non-15 minute workday.


Okay, so after playing around with the Half Elf, I believe I am sold on that race. The favored class bonus is just too awesome to pass up. Too bad the Wild Caller isn't PFS legal.

For the Half Elf I went with these stats:

STR 7
DEX 14
CON 15
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 17

Traits:
Focused Mind
Extremely Fashionable (I wanted a social skill to take advantage of that high Charisma)


My spell choices (through level 10) are as follows:

Cantrips
Acid Splash
Detect Magic
Guidance
Message
Mending
Read Magic

1st Level
Enlarge Person
Grease
Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon
Mage Armor
Shield

2nd Level
Barkskin
Glitterdust
Haste
Invisibility
Summon Eidolon

3rd Level
Black Tentacles
Evolution Surge
Greater Magic Fang
Restore Eidolon

4th Level
Greater Evolution Surge
Overland Flight

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