300+ dpr level 12 ninja? Did I break the game, or am i doing this wrong?


Advice

1 to 50 of 79 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Alright. So long story short, I have a 12th level ninja that has broken the game so hard, me and the gm are at the point of house ruling her to manageable levels. She has been known to hit 300dpr without crit. She does have two mythic tiers (trickster) but for the sake of this thread I will keep it simple and explain the bare bones of her mechanics. The essential feats, special abilities and weapons and gear will suffice.

Weapons 2x +3 revolvers (1d8 per shot) 1x +3 pepperbox rifle (1d10 per shot)

Gear- greater sniper goggles, oil of silence, pitted bullets, sassone leaf residue poison
(Contact fort dc 16, 2d12 hp damage, 1 con damage)

Feats- two weapon fighting, exotic weapon proficiency (firearms), deadly aim, combat expertise, blindfight, moonlight stalker. (Extra feat from human, combat trick etc)

Abilities- lowlight vision, vanishing trick, invisible blade

How it works- apply oil of silence- weapons now are silenced. Vanishing trick, with invisible blade, grants greater invisibility (don't break stealth when you attack, +40 stealth while stationary, +20 while moving.) say your average stealth roll is 30, which stacks with invisibility. You can now attack while stealthed more or less every round, denying the enemy Dex as with an invisible foe. Effect, up to 5 shots with the revolvers per round (6 with mythic) each attack adding 6d6 sneak dice, each sneak attack gets +2 damage per die. That's +72 damage, 36d6 sneak attack, 6d8 +66weapon damage (moonlight stalker +2, +3 enhancement,+6 deadly aim- that's +11x6 shots) and the possibl 12d12 and 6 con damage from the poison.

I have looked for flaws but come up with no reasons it would not work. So, what am I doing wrong... If this broken build is legit then it needs to be house ruled so it's not ridiculous. Please point out any flaws and/or offer suggestions to nerf the build.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

At a glance, it looks correct. The Mythic rules have some serious balance issues, and the touch attacks from firearms negate the drawbacks of Two-Weapon Fighting and Deadly Aim handily. Also, the advanced firearms you're using are by no means standard-assumption.

If I were taking over as your GM, I'd start by removing the guns. That would make attack rolls a more relevant part of your attack routine. I've been planning to change the Mythic free-attacks in my own campaign - their swift-action activation is a contributor here as well.


I'll point out that the only mythic part would be the the one extra attack per round (from 5-6) that being said, even without the guns, say a bow with only 3 attacks per round with expending a ki point, say 2 attacks hit on average, that's still 100 dpr or so, which is still absurd.


You are level 12. Large numbers of enemies at this level will ignore the fact that you are invisible. Likewise many will be immune to poison. Delay Poison is a level 2 spell which lasts hours per level. DC16 on what is commonly the best save for monsters will mean you go bankrupt spending 300gp per dose.

You are using revolvers with a 20' touch attack range so you need to be very close to get any sort of reliable full attack off. Making so many attacks you are going to roll a misfire and have no way to deal with it. Revolvers hold 6 bullets, you need to reload often and have no spare hand to do so.

If you are beyond 20' you are shooting at regular AC whilst suffering two weapon fighting penalties on a 3/4 BaB class meaning you are going to miss often. Against things which can see you then you will miss a lot.

You still having little more than a lot of damage. This is what is expected of martial characters at this level otherwise there isn't much point in bringing them along.


Don't you need a hand free to reload the pistols?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Mu'Randa wrote:
I'll point out that the only mythic part would be the the one extra attack per round (from 5-6) that being said, even without the guns, say a bow with only 3 attacks per round with expending a ki point, say 2 attacks hit on average, that's still 100 dpr or so, which is still absurd.

100dpr at level 12 is definitely on the low side. That's not even enough to take out a CR9 mook at this level.


Revolvers are advanced firearms and that Will break most users in about the same Way. Touch AC hit out to 100 feet:) take bludgeoner Sap adept and sap Master next:)
it Can be even more crazy with a double barrel pistol since that Will allow you 8 attacks pr turn without TWF and mythic but it Will hurt range and you will need rapid reload.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Woodoodoo wrote:
Don't you need a hand free to reload the pistols?

The revolvers hold up to six shots each. That's why I called out advanced firearms specifically as a contributing factor. :)


Reliable helps with misfires. Most fights don't last long enough to require a reload. 600 damage in two rounds (12 shots) is usually enough with the rest of the party. If not, QuickDraw and extra revolvers works fine. Using deadly aim negates the touch for the guns, so against the high ac targets I just don't use it and lose a little damage. The range is tricky, but a ninja is mobile enough to get the job done. Expend a ki point to move an additional 20 feet and a mythic point to make another standard action so I can still full attack.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

As for ignoring invisibility, Mythic brings us the Legendary Item power Undetectable, which shuts down any method of detecting our ninja friend. :)


Suggestions on house rules to fix the op ninja?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Look at the monsters he is facing. Constant see invisibility, uncanny dodge, blindsight, etc completely negate the sneak attacks.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Mu'Randa wrote:
Suggestions on house rules to fix the op ninja?

Just start removing pieces of the build, really. Retcon out the firearms, or reselect Mythic powers, or remove some magic items, or something.

Or, since you're the player... just don't do it. Work with the GM to rebuild your character. Just because the rules say you can do something, doesn't mean you need a new rule telling you not to do it. :)

I don't know what sort of answer you're looking for...


Oh yeah easy-est fix ever just don't allow modern firearms.


Sounds like a rebuild is in order. How would hand crossbows work? Since I still want the ranged sneak.


Mu'Randa wrote:
Suggestions on house rules to fix the op ninja?

Mostly, recognise that he isn't OP, that most two handed weapon wielders using mythic vital strike will do more damage than you and that most spellcasters will bring vastly more versatility than a bucket of d6 damage dice.


Your build only works because you have advanced firearms. With early firearms your build would do much lower DPR. Even with a pepperbox, this would reduce your attacks by 1 per round (no 2WF), limit you to 1 full attack before you run out of shots, and have a misfire rating of 2. If I were the GM and wanted to balance you, I would remove advanced firearms.


What dpr should a martial level 12/2mythic character have on average anyway (if they are focusing dpr?)


I also Think you are ok. You are in the damage game and you are doing well. there is no shame in having a character that puts out good numbers. A gunslinger with your revolvers should be around 170 without invisibilit and without spending resources.
A Raging bloodrager with a Big stick would also be around that. Both of these Can spend resources to do more just like you do. It is fine. And spell casters at this level can do magic stuff.
Dont gimp your ninja.
Edit: the exampels are Quick calculations and made without look at mythic. With mythic the bloodrager gets over 300 if he spend resources other than one rage round.


level 12 mythic 2 gunslinger dual wielding double barreled pistols with rapid shot can pull off 18 attacks a round all doing their normal damage dice plus 21 damage per hit (10 dex, 8 deadly aim, 3 enhancement bonus) and that is without advance firearms, and without mythic they only lose 4 attacks and 1 point of damage per attack. Its not your ninja that broke the game, its allowing weapons that target touch ac to make full attacks that cause problems.

This gunslinger does similar damage to your rogue, but is harder to shut down because it isn't stopped by crit immunity or uncanny dodge.

Edit:
also level 12 barbarian with mythic vital strike and improved vital strike could be doing 3d12+111 damage per standard action, and with mythic power granting an extra standard action, our barbarian can be triggering 2 of these attacks per round. while its lower damage than the gunslinger or the rogue, it ignores most of the deficiencies with both, specifically since wind can stop a barbarian. If you use a bloodrager instead of the barbarian, the damage goes up even farther.


Honestly, the other players murdered my ninja, and only a mythic breath of life saved me (i got into a fight with a cr19 that the gm dropped on my head and had tremorsense).
Both the gm and other players are mad that I "broke the game". My sniper goggles don't even add the damage (was house ruled out) and I am still pulling more dpr than the other 6 party members per round. I need to work this out to stay with the group. If they, or the gm, were also advanced players, it would be less of an issue. That being said, I feel like I have to play down to their level for them to be happy. Suggestions?


To clarify i survived with -3 hp. I was then killed by our sorceror, whose blindsight negated my attempt to kawarimi his mythic magic missile.


I Think you need to talk to your group and you need to find a power level you Can all live with. Just using not advanced firearms Will be a Big step down( only one and shorter touch AC range)
But first if i am to help i need to undestand why the party killed you:)
Edit: i Think this Sound like the GM is the one having a problem.


Kawarimi does nothing against magic missiles, magic missiles does not need an attack roll.

This really sounds more like a problem of you building a character that is too optimized. If your group is playing less optimized characters, building a dpr machine using the cheesiest(for the record, I view any exploitation of touch ac targeting guns as cheesy because of how exploitable touch attacks are against bestiary monsters) rule combinations you can find will anger a lot of groups.

Yes you will have to build a less optimized character for them to be happy. or at least a character that is optimized differently. I also frequently have more optimized characters than the people I play with, the way I get around the issue is to build optimally around a very sub optimal concept, (example being a bloodrager that threw cards for its attacks using a belt of might hurling, or a finesse(elven curved blade) two handed weapon tank that relied on dexterity and combat expertise for ac). Find a concept that I like that might be really weak, and optimizing that concept allows me to make characters closer to party average that I can still be happy with.

The other thing is to make sure your build doesn't step on anyone else's toes. Since you know what the others are playing, build something that does not overlap with their concepts as much as possible, if you have someone trying to be an ac based tank, don't over optimize and have higher ac than they do or it will make the feel bad. Likewise, if you have a character in the party that only does damage, then building a character that eclipses their damage and can do other things will make them feel bad.


Mu'Randa wrote:
What dpr should a martial level 12/2mythic character have on average anyway (if they are focusing dpr?)

Anyone doing 180-230 is on the high end of the average damage the way I figure it for level 12, mythic 2. Anyone doing more than that is a severe outlier. Whether or not doing more is a problem depends on a couple of factors; If you have anyone else in the party who focuses on dpr, beating them by more than 30 dpr a round may make them feel bad. If you are killing things in combat more quickly than anyone else in the party, or worse, faster than multiple people combined, you should tone it down, if you erase an entire combat in one round, the gm either has to tone you down, or tone the encounters up, and toning the encounters up can make the game unfun for all of your party members.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I would not play with folks that kills my character for lolz. I Think the ansvar is to leve the group. The other solution us to make the GM rule that there are no advanced firearms. This Will easily put you below even a inkompetent sorcerer( unless you use double barrel pistol;)) if that is your wish.


Ninjas have the issue of getting sneak attack very easily once they hit level 10 and get invisible blade. I think you will have a much larger dpr drop than you believe from not using firearms. Without being able to hit touch ac, your targets should all have an ac higher than 10, which is what an invisible ninja normally targets while using fire arms (flat footed touch ac is a joke).

If your damage is still too high, then focus on other abilities and feats, or just ask the gm to let you retrain your invisible blade talent to something else. Without at will greater invisibility you will have a much harder time sneak attacking, and your damage will drop severely. Rogues and ninjas were balanced under the expectation that sneak attack was something that would be hard to get, invisible blade was a mistake of a talent, its too good for its cost, and it makes every other talent in the game look like trash, compare it to hunter's surprise, a talent that serves the same function but only lasts for one round and is only usable once per day.


But flurry of stars plus ki point/ mythic point... 8 stars in one turn.... Possibly more dpr I don't know. I am the only dpr focused member. The problem is encounters get smoked by me. I know. Fuk it, I'll only use shadow clone and shadow split with unarmed fighting. I'll just pull a naruto XD.

Honestly, I'll drop firearms and see what happens. Or retrain invisible blade.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

The game is breakable by anyone who wants to break it. There are tons of ways to do it. Mythic adds even more.

The only advice that actually works is to stop trying to break the game.

Its that simple. You can play an optimized character without outshining the entire party and pissing off your group with all the cheese you're slinging around.


Mu'Randa wrote:

But flurry of stars plus ki point/ mythic point... 8 stars in one turn.... Possibly more dpr I don't know. I am the only dpr focused member. The problem is encounters get smoked by me. I know. Fuk it, I'll only use shadow clone and shadow split with unarmed fighting. I'll just pull a naruto XD.

Honestly, I'll drop firearms and see what happens. Or retrain invisible blade.

whats the barbarian focused on if not dpr?


The barb is focused on trolling


Doomed Hero wrote:

The game is breakable by anyone who wants to break it. There are tons of ways to do it. Mythic adds even more.

The only advice that actually works is to stop trying to break the game.

Its that simple. You can play an optimized character without outshining the entire party and pissing off your group with all the cheese you're slinging around.

This.

If you actually want to get serious about fixing this then... just drop the guns. That's what pretty much the entire thread suggests.

Pick up a bow if you want ranged sneak and be done with it. Or even your hand crossbow suggestion.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

You said mythic... you reap what you sow. The very fact you play mythic is indicative of the group's priorities.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
You said mythic... you reap what you sow. The very fact you play mythic is indicative of the group's priorities.

Hilariously, this is a situation where Mythic isn't the problem.


As I said, dropping the guns and/ or invisible blade will fix it. Thanks.


Touch attacks are probably a big part of the problem. Since guns make it easy to use touch attacks getting rid of the guns would likely get rid of the problem. If using guns is really key to the the whole theme of the PC I guess that you could try house ruling the guns. If you don't remove their ability to ignore armor completely you could try limiting the ability to ignore armor and natural armor to 10 points or the size of the gun's base damage die (8 for revolver, 10 for rifle)

Sniper Goggles can also be pretty powerful as they contribute to your ability to move around unnoticed and then execute monsters before they or your fellow PCs get a chance to act. I'm sure that many if not most folks on the boards would say that your DM can counter all of your PC's powers using stuff like concealment, wind effects, surprise melee attacks by monsters with big reach, Will saves, Fort Saves, or enemy gun ninjas. If the DM needs to prepare very special highly tactical encounters to negate your PC so that the other PCs get a chance to do something to that can be a real pain though. Sometimes just throwing in more and stronger monsters can help, but other times that just creates a situation where only Super-PC can save the party, adding helplessness to uselessness to make the other players feel completely fed up (which is how it sounds like your game has been going)

I once played an Alchemist who threw too many Bombs and would guess that you might regret your choices later on when it becomes clear that you prevented fun instead of contributing to it.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

That sounds about right. Our paladin did 766 damage in the last session in one round.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

A TWF alchemist tossing bombs with bonuses can do a hellacious amount of damage to just about anything.

you can do the same thing with a sufficient amount of Fire Seeds.

==Aelryinth


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The GM is basically allowing too much stuff. He should drop the advanced fire arms and mythic levels.

Another thing is that greater invis does not prevent you from breaking stealth when you attack. It just means your invis stays on. You also take a -20 penalty to not be seen to your invis modifier while you are in combat.

You will still have 50% concealment so it may not matter, since you can just use stealth to try to hide again.


Swift action greater invisibility plus touch ac hitting weapons. Yeah, not really surprising since you get your sneak attack against most foes, deny them Dex, and ignore almost all other AC bonuses. The advanced weapons let you completely ignore the drawbacks of two weapon fighting, deadly aim, and your low base attack bonus.

This is especially true since everyone else seems pretty green (especially a GM that somehow has a CR 19 dragon lose to a 12th level ninja). Someone with a good degree of mechanical knowledge and a GM that will let them get away with things can very easily shatter game balance if everyone else is more of a beer and pretzels type of guy.

That said, I'm curious as to how you get 5 attacks at 12th level, since your BAB is +9. Is that haste coming from someone else you are including?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Eltacolibre wrote:
That sounds about right. Our paladin did 766 damage in the last session in one round.

I'd like to see that build! Was he mythic?

Liberty's Edge

Something I'd like to point out, at lvl 12 you should begin to reliable face monsters with true seeing or abilities of the like that deny your sneak attack damage.

Just food for thought for your GM.


I had a PFS character on different occasions at level 7 and 8 took out an Allosaurus, a Hezrou Demon, and a Remorhaz in 1 round each. She's a grappler.

An Alchemist with Rapid Bombs can break 100 DPR by level 9.

So well-done on your character build, but I don't think you broke the game. I'd been thinking of running a gunslinging ninja in PFS: any advice?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:
That sounds about right. Our paladin did 766 damage in the last session in one round.
I'd like to see that build! Was he mythic?

Actually yeah, he can essentially transform into his mythic form once per day from his relic sword + Litany of righteousness + Smite Evil+Power Attack vs of course a creature who is taking double damage from smite. It was just the perfect setup, usually his DPR is more around 100-200 on foes where he can't smite evil.

Community Manager

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Removed a post and its replies. Do not use the word "retarded" in that fashion, please-and-thank-you.


Ooh, I like this.
My Arcane Trickster will introduce people to the pew pews and gun-bangs.

Way to go: take the "worthless" classes and make them gods among others.

1 to 50 of 79 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / 300+ dpr level 12 ninja? Did I break the game, or am i doing this wrong? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.