Which is better for a Lv3 rogue: +2 AC or +2 melee damage?


Advice


More specifically, is it better to have a +1 buckler & a rapier, or an elven curved blade?

The former lets me use the buckler while doing archery (or anything else), too.

The latter adds 2 to damage, and it's harder to sunder, but if it's a weird metal then I presume I can't get it in cold iron. (Also, I'm an "unchained" rogue, which seems to mean there's no 1.5x strength bonus for a two-handed weapon.)

If the buckler/rapier combination is better now, how much will that shift when I reach Level 8 and can choose the "Vital Strike" feat as well as gain iterative attacks (i.e. when it becomes +6 damage)? Or when I can afford to farther enhance my buckler?

Many thanks!


What's your AC? Making a jump from 19-21 is not the same as 14-16

Do you have plans for a prestige class? If you wanted to a duelist, this kinda matters.


Lobukia wrote:

What's your AC? Making a jump from 19-21 is not the same as 14-16

Do you have plans for a prestige class? If you wanted to a duelist, this kinda matters.

Without the buckler, my AC is 20.

There's a slim chance I'll take 3 classes in shadowdancer, but as this is my first time playing, I probably won't with this character.

Incidentally, I am one of Miersiel's many identical cousins.


You shouldn't bother with vital strike for the most part. You are better off charging first round instead of moving up and vital striking, as the extra to-hit is valuable for rogues. In case it wasn't clear, you can't vital strike on a charge or as part of a full attack.

I would probably go for the extra 2 AC over the extra 2 damage (unchained rogues don't have much of a damage issue but they still have survivability issues while in flanking positions), but I think it comes out in the wash mostly.


I'd go with the +2 to AC.


Quick question -

Thought Rogues had no training with shields. So to use a Buckler would require using a Feat for shield training.

Correct?


Matt2VK wrote:

Quick question -

Thought Rogues had no training with shields. So to use a Buckler would require using a Feat for shield training.

Correct?

Using a shield you're not proficient in causes you to suffer the ACP to your attack rolls. Masterwork bucklers (and magic by extension) have no ACP.

The shield proficiency feat is pretty useless for anything that isn't a tower shield or a quickdraw shield. Want a heavy shield? Make it mithril. Want a light shield or buckler? Masterwork.


Matt2VK wrote:

Quick question -

Thought Rogues had no training with shields. So to use a Buckler would require using a Feat for shield training.

Correct?

If you wield a shield without proficiency, you take its armour check penalty as a penalty on your attack rolls and skill checks.

However, a masterwork buckler (such as the +1 described above) has an armour check penalty of 0.

Thus, you can wear one when not proficient without any actual penalty.

*edit*

Ninja'd


Gonna add my vote for the +AC as well. Especially without 1.5 str to damage, the curve blade isn't worth it


Went brain dead there, Ryzoken is correct.


How are you getting the ECB? Are you taking a feat to get proficiency? If so, it's not worth the increase in damage. Use that feat to get weapon focus or something instead.


I'd take the +2 AC. Flanking is way too important for a rogue so you want to move around as freely as possible. You won't be able to succeed at every single acrobatics check to avoid AoOs when moving into flanking position and the ac bonus improves your chances to survive long enough to make use of that flanking.

In fact, I'd take Mobility almost every time on a rogue. Might even add the Underfoot feat from the APG if you're small.


+AC is better.


The unchained rogue doesn't have issues with damage, it's more hp and to-hit bonuses that's missing (always 1 to 5 behind a full BAB). Absence of hp requires high AC or a long distance from your enemies, so go buckler.

Scarab Sages

Personally, I'd go TWF and use the feat from ECB to take deific obedience Pharasma to offset the TWF penalty. An extra attack is worth more than the AC or the small damage boost from the ECB.


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
How are you getting the ECB? Are you taking a feat to get proficiency? If so, it's not worth the increase in damage. Use that feat to get weapon focus or something instead.

My thought was to take a level in ranger, which would give a lot of proficiencies (and enabling me to pick "Shield Focus" for 1 more AC) and also help with saving throws and the "favored enemy" bit (towards humans, I suppose), though I'm not experienced enough to know whether such a dip is worth it. Sorry, I should have mentioned that.

So, it seems unanimous that +2 AC is better than +2 melee damage. But, what about +2 AC versus +6 melee damage (at 8th level, as described above)?

Scarab Sages

Vital strike is almost never worth it, especially if you are not a barbarian, Druid, or warpriest. It's terrible for a rogue unless you take racial heritage ogre and the savage critical feat.

Grand Lodge

Get the +2 AC.

If it was a choice of +2 AC versus +2 to attack rolls (rogue BAB progression being what it is), it'd be a tougher decision.


If you level dip, looking for proficiencies, I'd look at the Slayer. This will give you your proficiencies and the Study Target ability. That +1 from Study Target can come in very handy.


Elven Curve Blade proficiency would not be granted by a dip into Ranger, as it's an exotic weapon.

To jump on the bandwagon: AC.

If we were talking a to-hit differential it would be different, but AC is far more valuable for a Rogue.

That said, I would advise a light steel shield over a buckler any day. 4 more gp for another point of AC? Yes.

If you like, that also opens up the option of going sword-and-board TWF, but even without doing that the light shield is still better.

Grand Lodge

kestral287 wrote:
Elven Curve Blade proficiency would not be granted by a dip into Ranger, as it's an exotic weapon.

I believe the OP is actually an Elf (their line about being "one of Miersiel's many identical cousins"). If they are, any class that grants all martial prof will snag them the ECB as well.

If they are not an elf(or tengu), then yeah, ECB becomes an even worse option.

My vote on the original question, +2 AC. The not being killed is defiantly better then the damage, especially as it is only a +2 average, +4 max and no minimum increase.

Also, slayer would be the option to go for is you go for any multiclassing (besides PrC). This is because the Study bonus activates for free if you get a sneak attack, and as a 1st level rogue, you have sneak attack online already.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

FYI if anyone finds this old thread (came up top for me on a google search).

Unchained rogues get 1.5x Dex with Elven Curve blade and 1/2 dex with off-hand weapons.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1h3

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