ARTLLERY!! ARCANE BOND SIZE?


Rules Questions

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i was looking for a charater to build that could help at long range. So i thought of having my charater use a cannon. but those feats suck and wont really help in a real battle like in a castel room.

i saw the arcane bond ability and i can get it at level one wizard or the eldritch heritage feat (arcane). "Wizards who select a bonded object begin play with one at no cost. Objects that are the subject of an arcane bond must fall into one of the following categories: amulet, ring, staff, wand, or WEAPON. These objects are always masterwork quality. Weapons acquired at 1st level are not made of any special material. If the object is an amulet or ring, it must be worn to have effect, while staves, wands, and weapons must be held in one hand. If a wizard ATTEMPTS TO CAST A SPELL WITHOUT HIS BONDED OBJECT WORN OR IN HAND, HE MUST MAKE A CONCENTRACTION CHECK OR LOOSE THE SPELL. THE DC FOR THIS CHECK ISEQUAL TO 20 + THE SPELL'S LEVEL.

1)Say if im an inquisitor with the eldritage heritage( arcane) would it effect me if i dont have the weapon in hand for my spell list?

2)WOULD THIS MEAN I COULD GET A LARGE SIZED double hackbutt ( FOR FREE!!!!)? even if i dont have profencicy and cant carry it? if i cast elarge person on myself then i would beable to use it "if i had profencincy".

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Since this could only be for a homegame, I'd talk it over with your GM. It sounds like it could become overpowering real quick. A regular hackbutt? Sure. A large-sized one? I probably wouldn't allow it as a GM.

But, either way, the Concentration requirement has no effect on spells from other classes. Just your Wizard spells.


Nefreet wrote:

Since this could only be for a homegame, I'd talk it over with your GM. It sounds like it could become overpowering real quick. A regular hackbutt? Sure. A large-sized one? I probably wouldn't allow it as a GM.

But, either way, the Concentration requirement has no effect on spells from other classes. Just your Wizard spells.

from what i see this is perfectly legal. i think.

so if i loose the weapon my "Inquisitor spell" list is fine and i dont have to make a concentration check?


The ability says "a spell" not "a wizard spell", so i'd say that it applies to all spells, including other classes. Compare for instance with the bloodline arcana who says it applies to "arcane spells" or magus spell combat who says "magus spells".

On the size issue, i'd say you can get it as big as you want, but i'd personally rule that you can't have it "in hand" if is not of the appropriate size following the standard handiness rules. This mean you can for example have in hand a large shortsword but not a large greataxe.


Dekalinder wrote:

The ability says "a spell" not "a wizard spell", so i'd say that it applies to all spells, including other classes. Compare for instance with the bloodline arcana who says it applies to "arcane spells" or magus spell combat who says "magus spells".

On the size issue, i'd say you can get it as big as you want, but i'd personally rule that you can't have it "in hand" if is not of the appropriate size following the standard handiness rules. This mean you can for example have in hand a large shortsword but not a large greataxe.

then i cast enlarge person. would it work?


If you cast enlarge person, your gear enlarges with you, so your large greataxe would become huge and still too big to use.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
If you cast enlarge person, your gear enlarges with you, so your large greataxe would become huge and still too big to use.

i dont carry the great axe i cast the spell then pick it up now its my size. the axe wot be on me at the time of the spell being casted. so it shouldn't enlarge.


Unless you drop it on the ground, cast enlarge, then pick it up. Then yes. But at that point, is it worth it?


Dekalinder wrote:
Unless you drop it on the ground, cast enlarge, then pick it up. Then yes. But at that point, is it worth it?

im not trying to use a great axe. I want a double hackbutt (large sized). so i can be come a cannon dps wise. i want to be artillery.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

How I would do this if it were me -

Be a Wizard, not an Inquisitor. Your'e absolutely going to need to be able to enchant things. Just use Arcane Bond on the weapon. Take Eldritch Heritage to get a Familiar too.

Use a cannon instead of a Hackbut. Firing a Siege Weapon is Intelligence based.

Transport your magicannon with a Floating Disk. Get the disk made permanent and attached to the the gun as soon as possible. What this will do is allow you to move it laterally as if it were effectively weightless. Think of it like a Star Wars style grav-lift.

Shrink Item + Glove of Storing will allow you to move your giant cannon around easily.

Memorize (and eventually make permanent/magic items of) Reloading Hands, Unseen Servant and Abundant Ammunition. If you are a morally dubious character, use Skeleton Crew instead. Reloading cannons is part of crewing a ship. Its something they can do easily.

If your GM allows it, take improved familiar and take a Rune Guardian. Take Unseen Servant as it's At Will spell. Your familiar is now your siege weapon crew. Make it a Valet Familiar. Now it and its invisible servants can craft magic items for you while you sleep.

Eventually, use Animate Object to make your cannon into a golem-like construct. Now it can move itself. Awaken it and take Leadership. Give your cannon class levels in Gunslinger (because duh). Ride it. Now you are a wizard in a golem tank. Win harder.

Reloading is going to take a little time. That's what you have crew for. On the rounds that you aren't blowing something to chunks, you're still an almighty wizard. Shape the battlefield. Hamper movement. Set up your shots. Every few rounds, obliterate something with a cannon.

Fun stuff.


Just pick a medium Hackbutt then, and enlarge yourself with it. Done. Even better, Giant Form, if you manage to get that far.


Dekalinder wrote:
Just pick a medium Hackbutt then, and enlarge yourself with it. Done. Even better, Giant Form, if you manage to get that far.

the damage die will stay the same. once the projectile leaves the weapon it reverts back to normal size.


Doomed Hero wrote:

How I would do this if it were me -

Be a Wizard, not an Inquisitor. Your'e absolutely going to need to be able to enchant things. Just use Arcane Bond on the weapon. Take Eldritch Heritage to get a Familiar too.

Use a cannon instead of a Hackbut. Firing a Siege Weapon is Intelligence based.

Transport your magicannon with a Floating Disk. Get the disk made permanent and attached to the the gun as soon as possible. What this will do is allow you to move it laterally as if it were effectively weightless. Think of it like a Star Wars style grav-lift.

Shrink Item + Glove of Storing will allow you to move your giant cannon around easily.

Memorize (and eventually make permanent/magic items of) Reloading Hands, Unseen Servant and Abundant Ammunition. If you are a morally dubious character, use Skeleton Crew instead. Reloading cannons is part of crewing a ship. Its something they can do easily.

If your GM allows it, take improved familiar and take a Rune Guardian. Take Unseen Servant as it's At Will spell. Your familiar is now your siege weapon crew. Make it a Valet Familiar. Now it and its invisible servants can craft magic items for you while you sleep.

Eventually, use Animate Object to make your cannon into a golem-like construct. Now it can move itself. Awaken it and take Leadership. Give your cannon class levels in Gunslinger (because duh). Ride it. Now you are a wizard in a golem tank. Win harder.

Reloading is going to take a little time. That's what you have crew for. On the rounds that you aren't blowing something to chunks, you're still an almighty wizard. Shape the battlefield. Hamper movement. Set up your shots. Every few rounds, obliterate something with a cannon.

Fun stuff.

you cant have a familiar and a bonded weapon. and i went inquisitor because of the free feats and a animal companion but i am thinking the hunter right now tho. to get a huge size weapon and animal soul. it would only be a ULTAMATE or my 'R" botton. i wont use it much. like a kamehhamaha shot only one good shot. the ape could be my crew.

not to mention the cannon takes 6 people the gun just one. but if i have me and the ape i can shoot and reload fast.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

Doomed Hero wrote:

Fun stuff:
How I would do this if it were me -

Be a Wizard, not an Inquisitor. Your'e absolutely going to need to be able to enchant things. Just use Arcane Bond on the weapon. Take Eldritch Heritage to get a Familiar too.

Use a cannon instead of a Hackbut. Firing a Siege Weapon is Intelligence based.

Transport your magicannon with a Floating Disk. Get the disk made permanent and attached to the the gun as soon as possible. What this will do is allow you to move it laterally as if it were effectively weightless. Think of it like a Star Wars style grav-lift.

Shrink Item + Glove of Storing will allow you to move your giant cannon around easily.

Memorize (and eventually make permanent/magic items of) Reloading Hands, Unseen Servant and Abundant Ammunition. If you are a morally dubious character, use Skeleton Crew instead. Reloading cannons is part of crewing a ship. Its something they can do easily.

If your GM allows it, take improved familiar and take a Rune Guardian. Take Unseen Servant as it's At Will spell. Your familiar is now your siege weapon crew. Make it a Valet Familiar. Now it and its invisible servants can craft magic items for you while you sleep.

Eventually, use Animate Object to make your cannon into a golem-like construct. Now it can move itself. Awaken it and take Leadership. Give your cannon class levels in Gunslinger (because duh). Ride it. Now you are a wizard in a golem tank. Win harder.

Reloading is going to take a little time. That's what you have crew for. On the rounds that you aren't blowing something to chunks, you're still an almighty wizard. Shape the battlefield. Hamper movement. Set up your shots. Every few rounds, obliterate something with a cannon.

Fun stuff.

Or do this.

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo-- -wizard-archetypes/siege-mage
At level 10... you don't need a crew... you have better things to do... like cast fireball.

Though, the Floating Disk + Awakening the Cannon are hilarious things to do. I agree with those decisions. Because who doesn't want a gun that can talk back


I want to know if the gun works. I want to flavor it as a last resort option. Or for big fights. Or try to make it seem like the ultimate rifle.

Is it possible to double the weapon as a great axe and a rifle?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

What has your GM responded with?


If you take Eldritch Heritage you can't pick a familiar if you already have a bonded item? I don't remember seeing that anywhere.


You just need to be an oversized goblin and grab this little baby here

.... on further study, that may not work.


Racial Heritage: Goblin?


Dekalinder wrote:

The ability says "a spell" not "a wizard spell", so i'd say that it applies to all spells, including other classes. Compare for instance with the bloodline arcana who says it applies to "arcane spells" or magus spell combat who says "magus spells".

On the size issue, i'd say you can get it as big as you want, but i'd personally rule that you can't have it "in hand" if is not of the appropriate size following the standard handiness rules. This mean you can for example have in hand a large shortsword but not a large greataxe.

It would only apply to the wizard spells because class abilities only apply to that class generally speaking.


arcanine wrote:
Dekalinder wrote:
Just pick a medium Hackbutt then, and enlarge yourself with it. Done. Even better, Giant Form, if you manage to get that far.
the damage die will stay the same. once the projectile leaves the weapon it reverts back to normal size.

Right, forgot that.

wraithstrike wrote:
It would only apply to the wizard spells because class abilities only apply to that class generally speaking.

Not this


While it looks like the large double hackbutt is a viable option for the arcane bond I would suggest against it.

As it says in Dekalinder's link, in general if something says it affects your ability to cast spells then it affects ALL spells you can cast (unless it says otherwise).

The bonded object (weapon) says "it must be wielded in ONE hand, or ALL your spells fail unless you make a DC 20 +SL concentration check.

What this means is unless you turn into a huge creature and wield your large hackbutt one handed, all of your spell casting ability, from any source (including inquisitor) is likely to fail.

All to get a free large weapon you can't even use without casting a spell on yourself to begin with.


Doomed Hero wrote:
If you take Eldritch Heritage you can't pick a familiar if you already have a bonded item? I don't remember seeing that anywhere.

How about in the ability description you suggested:

Spoiler:
Bloodline Powers: Magic comes naturally to you, but as you gain levels you must take care to prevent the power from overwhelming you.

Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.


Trekkie90909 wrote:

While it looks like the large double hackbutt is a viable option for the arcane bond I would suggest against it.

As it says in Dekalinder's link, in general if something says it affects your ability to cast spells then it affects ALL spells you can cast (unless it says otherwise).

The bonded object (weapon) says "it must be wielded in ONE hand, or ALL your spells fail unless you make a DC 20 +SL concentration check.

What this means is unless you turn into a huge creature and wield your large hackbutt one handed, all of your spell casting ability, from any source (including inquisitor) is likely to fail.

All to get a free large weapon you can't even use without casting a spell on yourself to begin with.

Can you give a citation for this? The rules in the wizard entry do not use the language you specify at all. Rather, they say 'must be held in one hand', which can be done just fine with a double hackbut.


There are no rules for what can be "held" compared to what can be "wielded". I would rule (personally) that you can "held" a two handed weapon in one hand as long as is of the apprpriate size (for example a paladin casting with a greatsword, or a wizard with arcane bond quarterstaff), but not if it's 1 or more sizes higher. But this is totally DM call since "held" is not a game term, contrary to "wield".


It doesn't say wielded in one hand, it says "worm or in hand." I would say holding the handle/firing mechanism is no different than holding a sword' s hilt. Or, with the floating disk one just put your hand on the bottom of the disk and the whole thing is in your hand... somewhat


Dekalinder wrote:
arcanine wrote:
Dekalinder wrote:
Just pick a medium Hackbutt then, and enlarge yourself with it. Done. Even better, Giant Form, if you manage to get that far.
the damage die will stay the same. once the projectile leaves the weapon it reverts back to normal size.

Right, forgot that.

wraithstrike wrote:
It would only apply to the wizard spells because class abilities only apply to that class generally speaking.
Not this

That is not modifying your spellcasting at all. The spells affected by a sorcerer bloodline don't behave like those not affected by one.

However a wizard with an arcane bond, and a sorcerer casting the same spell are exactly the same. Even when you lose the arcane bonded item the spells behave the same. That is what is meant by "modifying the spellcasting".

So, like I said that arcane bond will not affect an inquisitor's spells.

edit: It was this type of logic that made people try to argue that you can spontaneously convert a wizard spell into a cleric spell if you had multiclassed, based on that "modifying" FAQ. However it was wrong.


You want a familiar after already taking an arcane bond? VMC Magus has got your back, no dipping required.


Arcane Bond wrote:
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.

@WS Cleric Spontaneous Casting does not modify spellcasting, but provides additional option. Similar to Spell Recall. Arcane Bond instead affects all your spellcasting similar to Bloodline Arcana.

Spontaneous Casting/Spell Recall -> Active Class Ability
Arcane Bond/Bloodline Arcana -> passive modifier to spellcasting.
FAQ applies to the second category.


It would appear you've already decided you're right. Try it, see what your DM says. Showing him this thread probably won't convince him.

Unless you're talking PFS in which case try it, then find out you're wrong.


Gilarius wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
If you take Eldritch Heritage you can't pick a familiar if you already have a bonded item? I don't remember seeing that anywhere.

How about in the ability description you suggested:

** spoiler omitted **

My mistake. Guess I'd just have to figure out another way to get both. Maybe a one level dip in sorcerer or arcanist.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
If you take Eldritch Heritage you can't pick a familiar if you already have a bonded item? I don't remember seeing that anywhere.

How about in the ability description you suggested:

** spoiler omitted **
My mistake. Guess I'd just have to figure out another way to get both. Maybe a one level dip in sorcerer or arcanist.

Nope, neither of those work either. I quoted the sorceror's rule above saying it doesn't allow both, whereas the arcanist familiar exploit specifically stacks with the wizard's rather than granting a 2nd one.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Memorize (and eventually make permanent/magic items of) Reloading Hands, Unseen Servant and Abundant Ammunition.

Does reloading hands work on a siege engine? It doesn't look like it to me.


Gilarius wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
If you take Eldritch Heritage you can't pick a familiar if you already have a bonded item? I don't remember seeing that anywhere.

How about in the ability description you suggested:

** spoiler omitted **
My mistake. Guess I'd just have to figure out another way to get both. Maybe a one level dip in sorcerer or arcanist.
Nope, neither of those work either. I quoted the sorceror's rule above saying it doesn't allow both, whereas the arcanist familiar exploit specifically stacks with the wizard's rather than granting a 2nd one.

There has to be some way of getting both. Its not as if they create some game breaking combination.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
If you take Eldritch Heritage you can't pick a familiar if you already have a bonded item? I don't remember seeing that anywhere.

How about in the ability description you suggested:

** spoiler omitted **
My mistake. Guess I'd just have to figure out another way to get both. Maybe a one level dip in sorcerer or arcanist.
Nope, neither of those work either. I quoted the sorceror's rule above saying it doesn't allow both, whereas the arcanist familiar exploit specifically stacks with the wizard's rather than granting a 2nd one.
There has to be some way of getting both. Its not as if they create some game breaking combination.

I've already told you if you cared to listen. Use the Magus VMC to gain a Magus Arcana, specifically the "Familiar" Magus Arcana, which doesn't posses the same restrictions as the previously mentioned options.


Wow well this got a lot of attention. I was thinking of making the gun a lance since it would be so long I was thinking of putting two into one. I think a GM would be ok with that. But I'm not sure. I know I can do it I just want to make sure that I ran it by you guys to see if it's a good idea. And still have to enchant them separately. I'm not sure on making your own weapons. But I think crafting is banned in PFS. So I would just use is sparingly.

And no you can't have a familiar and a arcane bonded item. I've looked it up a lot.


You can't make your own weapons in PFS, you can't combine a lance and a gun in PFS, and... frankly I would bet money that a PFS GM wouldn't let you take a large double hackbut as an arcane bond.


Kaouse wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
If you take Eldritch Heritage you can't pick a familiar if you already have a bonded item? I don't remember seeing that anywhere.

How about in the ability description you suggested:

** spoiler omitted **
My mistake. Guess I'd just have to figure out another way to get both. Maybe a one level dip in sorcerer or arcanist.
Nope, neither of those work either. I quoted the sorceror's rule above saying it doesn't allow both, whereas the arcanist familiar exploit specifically stacks with the wizard's rather than granting a 2nd one.
There has to be some way of getting both. Its not as if they create some game breaking combination.
I've already told you if you cared to listen. Use the Magus VMC to gain a Magus Arcana, specifically the "Familiar" Magus Arcana, which doesn't posses the same restrictions as the previously mentioned options.

Also doesn't work. The magus version specifically follows the rules for wizards' familiars.


kestral287 wrote:
You can't make your own weapons in PFS, you can't combine a lance and a gun in PFS, and... frankly I would bet money that a PFS GM wouldn't let you take a large double hackbut as an arcane bond.

But it's within the rules. This is totally legit. I found a loop hole in the matrix.


Which part?

There is no possible legitimacy for making your own weapon.

There is no possible legitimacy for combining a lance and a gun.

You can try to argue the large double hackbut. I would not give you good odds.

The Exchange

arcanine wrote:

i was looking for a charater to build that could help at long range. So i thought of having my charater use a cannon. but those feats suck and wont really help in a real battle like in a castel room.

i saw the arcane bond ability and i can get it at level one wizard or the eldritch heritage feat (arcane). "Wizards who select a bonded object begin play with one at no cost. Objects that are the subject of an arcane bond must fall into one of the following categories: amulet, ring, staff, wand, or WEAPON. These objects are always masterwork quality. Weapons acquired at 1st level are not made of any special material. If the object is an amulet or ring, it must be worn to have effect, while staves, wands, and weapons must be held in one hand. If a wizard ATTEMPTS TO CAST A SPELL WITHOUT HIS BONDED OBJECT WORN OR IN HAND, HE MUST MAKE A CONCENTRACTION CHECK OR LOOSE THE SPELL. THE DC FOR THIS CHECK ISEQUAL TO 20 + THE SPELL'S LEVEL.

1)Say if im an inquisitor with the eldritage heritage( arcane) would it effect me if i dont have the weapon in hand for my spell list?

2)WOULD THIS MEAN I COULD GET A LARGE SIZED double hackbutt ( FOR FREE!!!!)? even if i dont have profencicy and cant carry it? if i cast elarge person on myself then i would beable to use it "if i had profencincy".

While yes you are correct that you can have ANY weapon, those rules were written before there were such weapons as firearms, siege engines, and FREAKIN' 182K GP VORTEX GUNS!

My friend was playing in a campaign where the GM told the players to minimal as much as possible, so they got themselves reincarnated as bugbears, turned into vampires, etc. but EVEN HE wouldn't let them take Eldritch Heritage for a free 182k gp weapon.


Wait, what? Damn. RAW, is it totally legal to get one of those as your arcane bond?


Debatable.

Tech weapons are called out as functionally equivalent to magic weapons, and a Wizard certainly can't start with a +10 weapon.

The Blind-Idiot RAW reading probably lets you have one, but any GM who recognizes the above two points is going to laugh and shake his head.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber
In the first reply I wrote:
Since this could only be for a homegame, I'd talk it over with your GM.
Additional Resources wrote:
No Large or larger firearm is available for purchase. The double hackbut, culverin and any advanced firearms on Table 3-4 and advanced firearms on Table 3-5 and are not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play


Nefreet wrote:
In the first reply I wrote:
Since this could only be for a homegame, I'd talk it over with your GM.
Additional Resources wrote:
No Large or larger firearm is available for purchase. The double hackbut, culverin and any advanced firearms on Table 3-4 and advanced firearms on Table 3-5 and are not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play

Pretty final!


Can I get a citation on siege weapons using intelligence?

Also, my DM ruled that unseen servant is too weak to reload a ballista and reloading hands can't target siege engines. What are my other reloading options?


Korlos wrote:

Can I get a citation on siege weapons using intelligence?

Also, my DM ruled that unseen servant is too weak to reload a ballista and reloading hands can't target siege engines. What are my other reloading options?

Direct fire siege engines apparently use dexterity "regular attack roll". Indirect fire siege engines use your Knowledge(Engineering) bonus plus your BAB.


The free weapon is also somthing you get at the beginning of play. There are no rules for getting it for free at level 3 when you get arcane Bond with eldrich heritage.


Well this happened and it went great. I just got the large sized double hackbutt. And my GM is a stickler for rules so he said he didn't see the issue raw is raw.
So this wasn't as strong as I originally thought. Until mid-Hight levels. The action economy is bad unless you have a gorilla companion to set it up. Or an ally willing to give up action to set it up. Then you have to cast enlarge person on yourself. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DONT MISS FIRE! Risk vs reward. You could kill the whole party I almost did.
So eventually It really did just come down to using it as a last resort weapon. Or a good way to get some surprise rounds started. But low levels it's pointless aEVERYTHING DIES! It gets boring having to set up and move. The ammo was taken care of by spells.
Mid to High levels is where it starts to shine capping dragons and giants.
It was fun to play and because the weapon was so bit I just got the pistol whip ability to beat people if they get close.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Take Eldritch Heritage to get a Familiar too.

Hate to nitpick, but...

Arcane Bond bloodline ability wrote:
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.

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