1.5x Dexterity Damage


Rules Questions

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Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Joe Homes wrote:
Though this is not an official ruling, I'm abusing the fact that Mark is sitting right next to me, and he says that the linked FAQ doesn't allow Double Slice to work for the rogue.

...suddenly I'm really glad I don't play PFS much anymore.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, with Swashbuckler Finesse, and Finesse Training, one could get x1.5 Dex, with a Trident?


wraithstrike wrote:
PDT just to clear things up, will double slicd work? I am reading it as a "no", but I'm sure it will spawn another FAQ so things it should be taken care of now if possible.

At the moment, RAW seems to be "no," but I'm pretty damn sure that was an oversight - given that they called out Overhand Chop, which increases two-handed damage to 2x Str (which requires very-specific circumstances and abilities to be possible AT ALL), rather that calling out a more-common thing like Double Slice or a Monk's Flurry, I think they're trying to keep crazy up-to-11 tricks like Overhand Chop and Dragon Style to "Strength-Only" status.

I can't see how giving Rogues Dex to 1.5x Damage for THW, but then dicking them over for TWF when they JUST made Rogues one of the best TWFers in the game, would make much sense.


Joe Homes wrote:
Though this is not an official ruling, I'm abusing the fact that Mark is sitting right next to me, and he says that the linked FAQ doesn't allow Double Slice to work for the rogue.

... ooor I could be COMPLETELY wrong, and either the FAQ is gonna need a rewrite because they goofed, or else the Devs are still over-estimating the strength of a TWFing Rogue.

Allowing Double Slice to work wouldn't break the Rogue, it'd just make the Rogue as completely useful in Combat as a Ranger or Barbarian - which is to say VERY useful, but not game-breaking in the slightest.

---

I guess the question would be: "does Mark know that they specifically don't WANT Double Slice to work, or is he just admitting that the FAQ as-worded mistakenly excluded Double Slice and the intent wasn't to deny DS from being denied to Rogues?"

If it's the prior, then I stand by my statement above; if it's the latter, then a mulligan would be understandable, considering how quickly the FAQ was answered and potentially the full ramifications of its exact wording weren't completely considered.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Wait, if Double Slice doesn't bring the damage up, does Flurry not bring the damage down?

Can a Unchained Rogue/Monk, Flurry, with x1.5 Dex to damage during Flurry?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Wait, if Double Slice doesn't bring the damage up, does Flurry not bring the damage down?

Can a Unchained Rogue/Monk, Flurry, with x1.5 Dex to damage during Flurry?

It doesn't say any other changes. Just other increases don't work. Nothing in it says that other changes, penalties or reductions won't stack on it.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
PDT just to clear things up, will double slicd work? I am reading it as a "no", but I'm sure it will spawn another FAQ so things it should be taken care of now if possible.

At the moment, RAW seems to be "no," but I'm pretty damn sure that was an oversight - given that they called out Overhand Chop, which increases two-handed damage to 2x Str (which requires very-specific circumstances and abilities to be possible AT ALL), rather that calling out a more-common thing like Double Slice or a Monk's Flurry, I think they're trying to keep crazy up-to-11 tricks like Overhand Chop and Dragon Style to "Strength-Only" status.

I can't see how giving Rogues Dex to 1.5x Damage for THW, but then dicking them over for TWF when they JUST made Rogues one of the best TWFers in the game, would make much sense.

Actually, I believe that since there is no such thing as an off hand attack for a monk making a flurry of blows, they get a pass. They're only making main hand attacks, so they're just using the standard multiplier.

Hurray rogue/monk multiclasses! Actually now that I think about it, that's not such a bad idea...


So, yeah, I just hit the FAQ button for the... FAQ...

As asinine as that is/sounds, it'd be nice to get a little more clarification as to the intent, and its wording denying external sources from affecting Str multipliers may create more rules snarls than they intended.

Scarab Sages

The only way to flurry a two-handed finesse weapon is my before-mentioned Cleric/Monk/Rogue with crusader's flurry worshiping zon-kuthon or one of the other weird deities with spiked chain as a favored weapon.

But Unchained Monk 1/Crusader Cleric 1/Unchained Rogue x with a Dex/Wis build would be pretty sweet.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The x1.5 Dex to damage with a Trident thing I mentioned earlier still works, right?

Scarab Sages

blackbloodtroll wrote:
The x1.5 Dex to damage with a Trident thing I mentioned earlier still works, right?

Per strict RAW, no. Finesse Training says "select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse". A trident cannot be used with Weapon Finesse, even if you can finesse it with Swashbuckler's Finesse.

I'd allow it in a home game, but I think it doesn't work, just like you can't have an Agile Trident.


Joe Homes wrote:
Though this is not an official ruling, I'm abusing the fact that Mark is sitting right next to me, and he says that the linked FAQ doesn't allow Double Slice to work for the rogue.

Makes sense.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
The x1.5 Dex to damage with a Trident thing I mentioned earlier still works, right?

It depends on whether or not a GM thinks "gain the benefits of the weapon finesse feat" and "can be used with weapon finesse" is the same thing. While I personally think that's perfectly fine, a particularly anal strict GM might have an issue with it.

I'd run it by your GM if you have one, or pray to the gods that your PFS judges are reasonable people.


Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQed!

FAQ wrote:

Unchained Rogue Finesse Training: When I'm replacing Strength for Dexterity, what happens with a one-handed weapon? What about an off-hand weapon?

With a two-handed weapon, you add 1-1/2 times your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls, and with an off-hand weapon, you add half your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls. As per the ability's text, if an effect would prevent you from adding your Strength modifier on damage rolls, you don't add your Dexterity modifier. However, any other effects that would increase the multiplier to your Strength bonus on damage rolls (such as the two-handed fighter archetype's overhand chop) do not affect your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls.

Dear PDT,

I'm pretty sure that you meant for the first question to be:

"When I'm replacing Strength for Dexterity, what happens with a two-handed weapon?"

rather than

"When I'm replacing Strength for Dexterity, what happens with a one-handed weapon?"


Kudaku wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
The x1.5 Dex to damage with a Trident thing I mentioned earlier still works, right?

It depends on whether or not a GM thinks "gain the benefits of the weapon finesse feat" and "can be used with weapon finesse" is the same thing. While I personally think that's perfectly fine, a particularly anal strict GM might have an issue with it.

I'd run it by your GM if you have one, or pray to the gods that your PFS judges are reasonable people.

Considering it's worse than Exotic wpn prof: Elven Curved Blade I'd say it's ok.


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The FAQ does say other abilities will not increase the multiplier for dexterity ability bonuses and double slice does change the off hand from .5 to 1.0. Personally I am not for or against it. I just think this is a good time to clear it up for anyone who thinks the FAQ as written does not match intent. I also think Joe was giving RAI so those expecting double slice to work will be disappointed.


Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQed!

FAQ wrote:

Unchained Rogue Finesse Training: When I'm replacing Strength for Dexterity, what happens with a one-handed weapon? What about an off-hand weapon?

With a two-handed weapon, you add 1-1/2 times your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls, and with an off-hand weapon, you add half your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls. As per the ability's text, if an effect would prevent you from adding your Strength modifier on damage rolls, you don't add your Dexterity modifier. However, any other effects that would increase the multiplier to your Strength bonus on damage rolls (such as the two-handed fighter archetype's overhand chop) do not affect your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls.

this saddens me


woo my GM didn't ban me from using it on my rogue who is using dragon style and 1 level of monk.(i'm playing a kobold, this would have killed my character)


Bandw2 wrote:
woo my GM didn't ban me from using it on my rogue who is using dragon style and 1 level of monk.(i'm playing a kobold, this would have killed my character)

Yeah, it seems like a rather silly thing to say "no, you can't have!" to...

I mean, what's the worst that can happen, honestly?

Rogue becomes as viable a combat-centric choice as the Barbarian, Ranger, or Slayer?

Yeah, no, that's... that's the kind of "problem" that's good to have.


Excellent; really appreciate the responsiveness on Paizo's part.


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Glues lucy to the football

Lantern Lodge

Too bad I was gone for the weekend but thanks for the speedy response devs!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Right, so, with Finesse Training, Dragon Style works to allow for x1.5 Dex to damage, yes?


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Bandw2 wrote:
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQed!

FAQ wrote:

Unchained Rogue Finesse Training: When I'm replacing Strength for Dexterity, what happens with a one-handed weapon? What about an off-hand weapon?

With a two-handed weapon, you add 1-1/2 times your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls, and with an off-hand weapon, you add half your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls. As per the ability's text, if an effect would prevent you from adding your Strength modifier on damage rolls, you don't add your Dexterity modifier. However, any other effects that would increase the multiplier to your Strength bonus on damage rolls (such as the two-handed fighter archetype's overhand chop) do not affect your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls.
this saddens me

Me too, a Two-Handed Fighter specialized in Elven Curveblade and focused on dex would be pretty awesome.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Right, so, with Finesse Training, Dragon Style works to allow for x1.5 Dex to damage, yes?

Dragon Style appears to be a perfect example of the sort of multiplier that the FAQ specifically disallows. See the bolded portion of the FAQ in kyrt-ryder's post, immediately above mine. ^_^

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I don't see why it is different than a two-handed weapon, in regards to this FAQ.

Perhaps, someone would care to explain?


Because 1) Dragon Style is not a two handed weapon and the FAQ specifically calls out "With a two handed weapon".
2)Specifically excludes other effects that multiply your strength damage, of which as Kalindlara points out Dragon Style is one definitely an "other effect".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I see.

Well, that makes an unarmed Rogue less appealing.


Imbicatus wrote:

The only way to flurry a two-handed finesse weapon is my before-mentioned Cleric/Monk/Rogue with crusader's flurry worshiping zon-kuthon or one of the other weird deities with spiked chain as a favored weapon.

But Unchained Monk 1/Crusader Cleric 1/Unchained Rogue x with a Dex/Wis build would be pretty sweet.

Alternate method - Elven Branched Spear (however you get that exotic proficiency), Sohei monk/Rogue (and you'd be mixing unchained and not-unchained stuff).

That is admittedly, a longer trick to pull off. With absolutely zero gain if using fractional BAB.
Or or or - Just go Sacred fist, which is a couple of levels slower but possibly probably a better chassis as the end result.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Human Alternate Racial trait Adopted, for Elven Weapon Familiarity, and the Swashbuckler archetype for proficiency with on martial weapon works.

That also throws the added benefit of being proficient with Bows.


Unless I'm mistaken, adopted only allows for traits from the traits system, you can't pick racial traits listed under a 'race'.

And Weapon Familiarity is an racial traits gained from the elf 'race'. Thus not a legal option for adopted.


If I had a penny for every time racial traits and race traits were brought up...

bbt is referring to the alternate racial trait "Adoptive Parentage"

Human Alternate Racial Traits wrote:
Adoptive Parentage Humans are sometimes orphaned and adopted by other races. Choose one humanoid race without the human subtype. You start play with that race's languages and gain that race's weapon familiarity racial trait (if any). If the race does not have weapon familiarity, you gain either Skill Focus or Weapon Focus as a bonus feat that is appropriate for that race instead. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Not the Adopted Social trait, that grants a Race trait, but a specific alternate Racial Trait for Human, called Adopted, that allows you to choose Skill Focus, Weapon Focus, or Weapon Familiarity of the Adopted Race, and replaces the Human's Bonus feat.

I understand your confusion.

Basically, Race Traits, are not Racial Traits, and Racial Traits, are not Race Traits.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Human Alternate Racial trait Adopted, for Elven Weapon Familiarity, and the Swashbuckler archetype for proficiency with on martial weapon works.

That also throws the added benefit of being proficient with Bows.

Good ideas, for the rules as helpfully given though (with emphasis):

Pounce wrote:
Human Alternate Racial Traits wrote:
Adoptive Parentage Humans are sometimes orphaned and adopted by other races. Choose one humanoid race without the human subtype. You start play with that race's languages and gain that race's weapon familiarity racial trait (if any). If the race does not have weapon familiarity, you gain either Skill Focus or Weapon Focus as a bonus feat that is appropriate for that race instead. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.

You trade out the bonus feat. Given a half elf can get exotic proficiency (so not even needed to dip over familiarity) for free, the trade-off between those options really leans half-elf for me.

Maybe I'm undervaluing the bonus skill point. Edit: And bows. Also, doesn't the Sohei archetype get martial proficiency anyway?

Anyway, what I originally came back for (having rushed earlier): Problem with using sacred fist for crusader's flurry is that it's really slow a build to get going. Boringly so (level 10 before all parts in place). But the archetype gets (and retains) enough good features that it's a very valid high level option.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, Sacred Fist is another option.

Scarab Sages

The problem with Sacred Fist is that the earliest you can get crusader's flurry is 4th level, and the earliest you can get dex to damage with the spiked chain and crusader's flurry is 7th. It's a valid option for high level, but it's a pain if you have to play through the level up.

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