Unchained Monk + Natural Attacks with Flurry of Blows


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I know that you could not make extra natural attacks with the old monk in addition to Flurry of Blows because it specifically states it.

Old Monk Flurry of Blows wrote:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

In Pathfinder Unchained however, this line has been omitted from the Flurry of Blows text.

Since this has been omitted from the new Flurry of Blows, does this mean we can now use Natural Attacks in addition to Flurry since both are "Full Attack Actions"?

Natural Attack Rules wrote:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.

Liberty's Edge

Unchained Monk Flurry of Blows wrote:
At 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When making a flurry of blows, the monk can make one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus. This additional attack stacks with the bonus attacks from haste and other similar effects. When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality. He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects). At 11th level, a monk can make an additional attack at his highest base attack bonus whenever he makes a flurry of blows. This stacks with the first attack from this ability and additional attacks from haste and similar effects.

It specifically leaves out the line about natural attacks in the new rules.

So for instance, if my attack to hit with a kama was +6, and my attack to hit with a natural bite attack was +6, would i get three attacks?

Kama +6 / Kama +6 / Bite +1

Liberty's Edge

Oh, dear God.

That said, there's nothing to stop TWF and natural attacks. So, I guess I would say that as long as your natural attacks isn't being made by an appendage that is part of the FOB sequence, go have fun.


"When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality."

Natural Attacks aren't either of those, so I don't know as you can use them with Flurry of Blows.

Liberty's Edge

DrakeRoberts wrote:

"When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality."

Natural Attacks aren't either of those, so I don't know as you can use them with Flurry of Blows.

I'm not using them as Flurry weapons. I am taking the Flurry with my kamas as part as a full attack action. Rules state that when you make a full attack with weapons you can also make any natural attacks you might have at a -5, as long as they are not with the same appendage.

Paizo Employee Designer

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"He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so." Natural weapons are weapons, so you don't gain any additional attacks for using them.


He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so.

This part it what stops natural attacks and TWF from working with the flurry.


Mark Seifter wrote:
"He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so." Natural weapons are weapons, so you don't gain any additional attacks for using them.

His idea is that you do the flurry with your other weapon and then add on the natural attacks extra to the full-attack action after the flurry.

Paizo Employee Designer

Chess Pwn wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
"He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so." Natural weapons are weapons, so you don't gain any additional attacks for using them.
His idea is that you do the flurry with your other weapon and then add on the natural attacks extra to the full-attack action after the flurry.

It seems in your post above this one that you were quoting the same part I did. Also, "a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action" so the flurry of blows is your full-attack action; there isn't an "after".


Mark Seifter wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
"He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so." Natural weapons are weapons, so you don't gain any additional attacks for using them.
His idea is that you do the flurry with your other weapon and then add on the natural attacks extra to the full-attack action after the flurry.
It seems in your post above this one that you were quoting the same part I did. Also, "a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action" so the flurry of blows is your full-attack action; there isn't an "after".

Not 'after' per se, "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action".


Mark Seifter wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
"He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so." Natural weapons are weapons, so you don't gain any additional attacks for using them.
His idea is that you do the flurry with your other weapon and then add on the natural attacks extra to the full-attack action after the flurry.
It seems in your post above this one that you were quoting the same part I did. Also, "a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action" so the flurry of blows is your full-attack action; there isn't an "after".

I did indeed, but I was able to get you to clarify that there isn't an "after" to it since I expect this question to come up again at some point in time.


graystone wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
"He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so." Natural weapons are weapons, so you don't gain any additional attacks for using them.
His idea is that you do the flurry with your other weapon and then add on the natural attacks extra to the full-attack action after the flurry.
It seems in your post above this one that you were quoting the same part I did. Also, "a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action" so the flurry of blows is your full-attack action; there isn't an "after".
Not 'after' per se, "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action".

and the full attack action is the flurry, so using extra weapons (natural attacks) as part of the flurry (full attack) gives you no additional attacks. Also you can't attack with natural attacks because as part of a flurry you can't attack with natural attacks, thus it can't be done as part of the flurry, only "before" or "after" and there is no before or after.


Chess Pwn wrote:
graystone wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
"He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so." Natural weapons are weapons, so you don't gain any additional attacks for using them.
His idea is that you do the flurry with your other weapon and then add on the natural attacks extra to the full-attack action after the flurry.
It seems in your post above this one that you were quoting the same part I did. Also, "a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action" so the flurry of blows is your full-attack action; there isn't an "after".
Not 'after' per se, "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action".
and the full attack action is the flurry, so using extra weapons (natural attacks) as part of the flurry (full attack) gives you no additional attacks. Also you can't attack with natural attacks because as part of a flurry you can't attack with natural attacks, thus it can't be done as part of the flurry, only "before" or "after" and there is no before or after.

There isn't an 'after' with a normal weapon attack + natural weapon full round action so I don't get the distinction. There is never an 'after'.

As to the topic, I get the intent but it seems poorly worded given the way the natural weapon section words it (natural attack + weapon attacks). Add to that the TWFing section. It just talks about using two weapons with the assumption that everyone is talking about manufactured weapons. To match the intent there should be a note that natural attacks are included in weapons (or an FAQ entry), if for no other reason to avoid confusion.

Liberty's Edge

I was mainly asking because I've been working on two builds posted here:

Unchained Builds for Pathfinder Society

And this was of particular interest to my Monk/Rogue build...although i still think it is beast without it. It would make my build a little overpowered.


Bumping this.

I was thinking of a Rogue(scout) 3-4 build with this, using it's finesse training for unarmed strikes to get DEX to damage, and then spreading around to the natural weapons with Feral Combat Training.

I wish UC ninja existed, then I could have some extra Ki on top of that.


I am interested in that dilema also... Oh mighty designer, hear our calls! Haha

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

What delima remains? What is still unclear?

Scarab Sages

The optimal use of feral combat training ignores flurry anyway. Monk/Druid, Take the form of a giant octopus and take FCT in tentacle. Take jabbing style and use it with your 8 natural attacks at full BAB.

Sczarni

Quote:

Unchained Monk:

At 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When making a flurry of blows, the monk can make one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus. This additional attack stacks with the bonus attacks from haste and other similar effects. 1. When using this ability, 1a. the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality. 2. He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but 2a. he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so. (3. He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects).
Quote:

Original Monk:

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. 4. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. 5. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

By no means am I thinking this should work, as that would be most certainly overpowered from a Martial standpoint(and RAI standpoint)... but the OP makes a good point. The entry that denies Natural Attacks and TWF is denied from being combined from the Original Monk(4. and the fact that Flurry counts as TWF) vs the Unchained(1./1a., 2a.).

Unchained Flurry has 1 as it's subject where 1a refers to it, and just let's us know we can use any combination within the flurry, using unarmed strikes or monk weapons.

Unchained Flurry has 2. as it's subject where 2a refers to it, and let's us know there are no penalties for multiple weapons within our flurry AND we don't gain any additional attacks beyond what's already granted by the flurry for doing so. Then it gets to 3 and reminds us that we can still receive more attacks from "haste and similar effects".

That's where it gets weird for interpreting. I know the intention, but it doesn't change how this can be variably viewed. Who's to say that Haste and Polymorph aren't similar? They're both spells, and technically Wildshape is too(though using Beast Form and whatnot), and undoubtedly grant access to more attacks from both of those sources and also alter stats to some degree.

On the same note, the Original Monk specifically disallows Natural Attacks from being additional or mixed in. Feral Combat Training let's us mix those in, so that's easy to take care of. As a Monk, you'll be using Unarmed or Manufactured weapons... so really only Claws on the Hands would be an issue if you wanted to use in combination with your attacks... but there are many other natural attacks than Claws to be had.

I'm essentially imagining a Monk that has gone partial Druid. Turning into a Giant Squid or Giant Octopus. That'd be a Flurry + Bite + 8 Tentacles... and since the Octopus could make an "Unarmed Strike" in the form of a headbutt or hitting with a different part of the Tentacle... that'd be horrifyingly legit. That'd be something like +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5(realistically only 4 of these hit)... then +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/ for your tentacles and bite... then Medusa's Wrath for another +20/+20...

Horrifying... and I intend to break someone's game on Roll20(as long as Munchkining is legit) one day. Gotta find one of those Gestalts or higherpowered games. That's 17 attacks in a round... and you could still Flying Kick to opponents. That's broken as hell and I know there wouldn't be even one GM that would allow it if he realized the intent.

My point is; They should add clause 5. from the Original Monk into the Unchained. Problem solved.

Don't rage on me too hard guys :)

Also give the OP a FAQ click...


I am not saying one way or the other for sure, however I think Furry of blows is meant to be a full round action by itself and is not meant to be used with natural attacks. Similar to the way Vital Strike can't be used with Charge.

I think the intent is a monk with two Kamas can do a fury of blows, with no natural attacks or do regular attacks with the two Kamas along with natural attacks.

Just my two cents.


So I'm going to presume that you cannot, for example, use TWF and Flurry of Blows at the same time? If that's the case, then sad days for my K.O. build.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
Quote:
he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so.

My point is; They should add clause 5. from the Original Monk into the Unchained. Problem solved.

Not requited because of the part you quoted. No additional means no natural attacks, no additional attacks.

I get that you'd want to avoid taking my word, but a designer point this out already and yet is being ignored.

Do we really have to wait until they answer a question in a new FAQ already answered?


The rule of thumb for UFlurry seems to be that if a rules element would grant you additional iterative/main-hand attacks (eg. Haste, Keen weapon property, Medusa's Wrath, etc), then it's fine. But if you're using a weapon or method of attacking that works outside that paradigm (eg. off-hand weapon, natural weapons, etc.) then it doesn't. Trying to get around that based on a technicality or an overly pedantic interpretation smells awfully cheesy.


...So then TWF doesn't work with UCFlurry?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
...So then TWF doesn't work with UCFlurry?

Correct, no it doesn't work with UCFlurry.

Sczarni

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
...So then TWF doesn't work with UCFlurry?

Pure common sense with Pathfinder game balance in mind, would be that it absolutely does not work. Same for Natural Attacks in addition.

On the original Monk's FoB, it was more evident. It calls out a couple times that FLurry is being used "as if using TWF", which means it's basically TWF. Ironically, it really is TWF reskinned as Flurry of Blows and having a Full BAB progress. If you're a BAB +1 and are using TWF and a Light Weapon in the offhand, you're at a -1/-1 much like the Monk starts with his FoB... but they can get away with bigger weapons and don't count as having an offhand. Then the other restrictions as what you can combine with it, etc.


From Natural Attacks Description:

Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon)

So, not, natural attacks are not a weapon. They can't be enchanted as weapon, they don't receive bonus for weapon enhancement spells etc..

So the "He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so" statemente only prohibits to gain aditional attacks from two weapon fighting or similar effects (as that "for doing so" referring to using multiple weapons states)


You're necroing a thread dead for almost four years just to post stuff refuted long ago, including by developer comment?

"Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons (...)" CRB pg. 182

You see that? It's the first line of the natural attack rules in the CRB. That means it's the natural attack rules in the Bestiary (which your quote comes from, in case you only copied it from the should-not-be-used-as-a-rule-source d20pfsrd site and didn't know) that are in error. They're atrociously written anyway, talking about having attacks (an attack is an act, you don't have acts, you make them). The CRB, i.e. the rules for PCs, clearly call what you make those attacks with natural weapons. For a PC, the CRB is more important then the Bestiary.

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