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Sissyl wrote:

I dunno. Darwin was one smart cookie. I am pretty sure he would have been delighted to see where his theory has gone today. And of course, there is enough evidence of evolution HAPPENING for ignoring it to be unrealistic at best. For a very simple example: Cultivate bacteria. Put them under heat that is somewhat dangerous to them. Lots of them die. Among those that do not, you will find that the genes for heat tolerance are now pretty common. Same with antibiotic resistance. It is not just for those individuals, either, but traits that remain with the strain for a long time. Keep subjecting them to heat and antibiotics and the traits will remain and grow stronger. Stop heating, and the strain will no longer have such evolutionary pressure to keep it, and it may disappear in a while. It isn't just bacteria, though. Fishes from one lake divided in two from the same genetic pool, have been observed to differ greatly depending on the conditions in the respective resulting lakes.

Regarding the probability of life arising, make a thought experiment. If we assume that life happens AT ONE SINGLE POINT IN THE UNIVERSE, on a planet around one of the billions and billions of stars... Riddle me this: Where in the universe will people eventually sit thinking about how unlikely the emergence of life is?

As I mentioned earlier, I'm not against evolution, but that's only evidence of the evolution of a single species, or microevolution, not the change from one species to another - until they make an entirely different species incapable of producing fertile offspring with the original species, it doesn't really fall into macroevolution, or the change from one to another - which is the area where most creationists have cause.

There's a little part where the math and science gets me. Random chance is necessary for the evolution of one creature. Very, very, very random chance, but not impossible. At SOME POINT there's going to be one creature that is no longer the same species as the other...and that inability to create fertile offspring is how we define species...so...it would necessitate circumstances that not only does one happen to change in a given generation, but there should be two, of opposite genders, who happen to be regionally close enough to and actually do mate in order to preserve this new species.

Again, I understand it's all super gradual change, but at some point in order for them to be a new species they cannot be capable of producing fertile offspring with the original, and hybrids between species are always sterile, or they're not a separate species. It's why we classify dogs as a type of wolf now.

What that does is takes this incredibly random possibility and squares it on itself, because the odds of it happening twice in the same place at the same time with two different sexes close enough to one another - astronomically beyond ridiculous. Mathematically impossible given the estimated age of our planet (just like inorganic to organic matter spontaneous generation is beyond mathematically impossible given the estimated age of our universe).

You can't pick and choose which you want to follow when it's convenient. If you say "well physics and math estimating our age doesn't matter" - you have thrown your own argument about biology out the window, because biology is just applied chemistry, which is just applied physics, which is just applied mathematics.

Again - I don't disagree with evolution by any means - I simply think it had to have been guided to get around the math.


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Syrus Terrigan wrote:
Seriously, when are we gonna get off this rock and go do something?

When we can defy the speed of light, either through wormholes or some other means of trans-dimensional travel, or are capable of disproving C, because otherwise it'll take years upon years upon years upon years upon years...ad infinitum...to even reach the closest star, and let's be honest, what are the odds in this phenomenally enormous universe there happens to be intelligent life in this very galaxy among how many galaxies are out there, let alone the nearest star?

I suppose we could colonize an Earth-like planet before we could terraform one in our own solar system, but that's if we don't all die out during the trip. It would either take a centuries-long colony ship similar to Wall-E to make it there, or near-light-speed travel, which means by the time everyone gets off the ship, hundreds if not thousands of years would pass outside due to relativistic time effects, and humanity as we know it (aside from this colony group) could have experienced extinction. Even if they didn't, communications between stars would take years, if not decades.

Truth be told, by the time we could possibly figure out how to do anything, most likely our species would be dead by some kind of gamma burst close enough to absolutely wreck half our planet from radiation and destroy the other half from ruining our atmosphere and ozone layer. We can take out a giant meteor given sufficient preparation, probably, but you can't stop gamma bursts.


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No such thing is necessary. You don't need male and female individuals at some point with mutation X. Here's why:

Not every gene is expressed. This is why there is a difference between genotype (the encoded genes) and phenotype (the expressed traits). Easiest example is the ABO system for blood antigens. Someone with an A blood type (phenotype) can have two different genetic codes (genotype), namely AA and AO.

It is entirely possible that individuals hold a large part of the necessary genes without much expressing them. And then, eventually, when the genes have spread throughout a small population, there will be individuals that express those genes.

It is also a misunderstanding that different species can't produce offspring. There are a good number of examples of this in nature, even complex situations like bird species A that can interbreed with bird species B, which can in turn interbreed with bird species C - but A can't interbreed with C. Whether such offspring is fertile depends on the pairing. Or, to be specific: How well the genomes of the different species match up. We know today that the genome of humanity has a, albeit a small one, fragment of neanderthal DNA. For this to have happened, there would have needed to be fertile crossbreeds.

What drives evolution is environmental pressure. Some condition makes a certain trait let the individual more likely to survive. Bacteria under antibiotic attack and antibiotic resistance. Heat tolerance and a hot environment. Fast movement and a dangerous environment with many predators. And so on. With all these genes come a cost. A resistant bacterium needs to spend energy to produce the resistance proteins - meaning that in competition with bacteria similar to it but without antibiotic resistance, the resistant strain would lose out eventually, unless of course there is pressure from antibiotics - that makes it worth it. Similarly, being fast is not a simple thing. Look at a cheetah. The entire body is optimal for speed - but not much else.

There is no difference between microevolution and macroevolution. Boundaries between species are fluid and uncertain things, often more a question of the human need for taxonomy than reflective of anything real. Take a species in a well-defined environment with a certain set of dangers and challenges, and move half of it to a different environment. Wait a long time, i.e. many generations. Lots of them. Compare the two populations. They will be different. Evolution.


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@gtg --

1) I'm not even trying to suggest we go straight from fossil fuels to the United Federation of Planets. How long has it been since we've been to the moon? How much sooner will the Chinese get to Mars than the US or Russia? We've stopped exploring the universe -- we've just been looking at it.

Where's Mark Watney?

2) A guided evolutionary progression still has some difficulties of its own, doesn't it? It seems to me that it mucks about with the validity of the Bible and certainly begs questions about the nature of God. While those things don't necessarily have to fit with current thinking (whether mainstream or unorthodox; and my understandings of the same don't matter one whit), what degree(s) of credence would be needed to support "Christianity"?


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Syrus Terrigan wrote:
2) A guided evolutionary progression still has some difficulties of its own, doesn't it? It seems to me that it mucks about with the validity of the Bible and certainly begs questions about the nature of God. While those things don't necessarily have to fit with current thinking (whether mainstream or unorthodox; and my understandings of the same don't matter one whit), what degree(s) of credence would be needed to support "Christianity"?

A change in our understanding of the interpretation of Genesis 1-2 does not by any means negate nor disavow any of the other chapters of that book, nor the other 65 books of the bible.


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@gtg --

Is there a place where the metaphors *would* end?


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I'm gonna go with "when people started writing down things seen by actual legitimate witnesses who were alive when it happened" - so...probably Exodus or so. Even with the most conservative estimates, we're talking thousands of years between Adam and Moses, the accredited author of Genesis. So was the rest of the Pentateuch, but at least there were people alive at that time to go "Wait, what?" when a metaphor is brought up, and it's not like Genesis where it was relayed to him from God and needed to be explained in a manner where he understood - he was straight up there for books 2-5, and the closing was probably edited and confirmed by Joshua, as would further additions be by prophetic contemporaries.

It's not like it's at all out of God's character to use metaphors. Jesus preached more than half of his messages as parables.


johnnythexxxiv wrote:
Do... do people still ask for favorites on this thread? Because if so, I'm a little hurt that Tacticslion hasn't favorited my post on the Blame Cosmo thread yet. If that's not a thing I'll just go then... abandons thread

Please. That's primarily what this thread is for, after all. I just use it to post stuff because it's convenient and has my name on it. Other people post... whatever they like and hope I favorite it (and I often do).

Also: I didn't see your lost! Thanks for the heads up! Another guy some time back thought it was "Tactic Slion" for a while. So you're not alone. (If I had my normal avatar, I'd imagine there'd be less confusion. It's the lion guy from Final Fantasy Tactics. Secretly - so do t tell anyone, okay? - that's where my name comes from.)


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Tacticslion wrote:
Also: I didn't see your lost! Thanks for the heads up! Another guy some time back thought it was "Tactic Slion" for a while. So you're not alone. (If I had my normal avatar, I'd imagine there'd be less confusion. It's the lion guy from Final Fantasy Tactics. Secretly - so do t tell anyone, okay? - that's where my name comes from.)

Huh, I almost thought it was an L5R thing...


Hah! To my shame, I'm not overly familiar with Legend of the Five Rings, other than, "it's an eastern flavored game" and, "you should be" (according to a few folks I've talked to). The closest I've come is having been emailed a pdf of an older (no longer produced?) PnP RPG, which I've never had the opportunity or reason to really peruse, despite having moved it through something akin to three computers. I also believe that it's a collectible card game? Aaaaaaand that's what I've got.

Incidentally, reading my own post shakes me: so many typos! Typing on the phone is... not always my strong suit, and autocorrect does its best to ensure that I have even more "issues" - so, sorry!


Awesome!
(Spamming this around!)


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Tactics --

How many planimal members are there?


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We are legion.

A legion of around ten, I think. TL, Me, Tacticslioness, Gambitbear, Leeroyjenkinsbat, Maneuvermoose, Schemesnake, Somethingcarcal, Nappingbushbaby...I'm missing someone I think.


That's about what I've got...


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Hmmmm . . . . That being said, here are a few suggestions for your consideration. I will defer to your judgment.

Hijackasaurusrex (might as well float that one)
Rantraptor ('cause outrage is a plan, . . . right?!)
Phalanxphoenix (got a funny little anecdote about that one)
Ambushaardvark
Bullybadger

And I can wax more excessive and grandiose as I go . . . .

Throw some more notions out there, guys. I know y'all don't know me as well as the rest of the crew, considering how new I am to the boards, and all, but I would love to identify with y'all in some semi-official way . . . .


Phhhhhusssshhhaaaw... "semi" is the much more important part of that. Literally everyone just came up with their own and "joined" by doing so. I didn't even start it. I think it was GambitBear and StrategyTiger (for the "lions and tigers and bears; oh my!" effect). So... feel free to make your own. I think someone is <critter>Phalanx, though, now that you mention it. You could always do a lower case search in this thread to check on various plan and animal names, if you want. Otherwise, just make what you like! ;)


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I did indeed start it. I even suggested Gambitbear's name, and threw a fit when people didn't follow the pattern (Uppercase plan synonym, lowercase animal name, no spaces). This is assuredly my most anal retentive alias.


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Because outrage isn't just a plan -- it is the plan.


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...AND EVERYONE MUST FOLLOW THE PLAN!!!


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Have you ever gotten those little sparkly things in front of your eyes after rubbing them? D0 you know what they are?


Strategytiger wrote:
I did indeed start it. I even suggested Gambitbear's name, and threw a fit when people didn't follow the pattern (Uppercase plan synonym, lowercase animal name, no spaces). This is assuredly my most anal retentive alias.

Indeed, my friend. Indeed. :D


Rantraptor wrote:
Because outrage isn't just a plan -- it is the plan.

Awesome!

Outraged Devotee wrote:
...AND EVERYONE MUST FOLLOW THE PLAN!!!

Oh, goodness! Who are you following? Me, Strategytiger, or AngryNerdRageDemon?

Randarak wrote:
Have you ever gotten those little sparkly things in front of your eyes after rubbing them? D0 you know what they are?

Yes I have; I do not, but I expect that they are the results of your eyes being forcibly partially (but not fully) adjusted, in a physical sense. The spots, then, would the results of your eye muscles trying to get themselves back in syncs with each other. GambitBear* in mind, this is strictly a hypothesis, not an actual theory. :)

* Hah! "Gambitbear in mind..." Aaaaaahhhhhh, I slay me... *wipes tear away*


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ka-KAW! ka-KAW!

Randarak wrote:
Have you ever gotten those little sparkly things in front of your eyes after rubbing them? D0 you know what they are?

I think they're a combined reaction of the cones and rods in your retina to pressure and light deprivation. What they're called, I have no idea. Not a good idea to rub your eyes, though, according to conventional medical wisdom.

The Phalanx Anecdote

I am the oldest of four children. My sister is 4-1/2 years younger, my brothers (twins) are almost 7 years younger. I accept a great deal of responsibility for my brothers turning out the way they did (our sister is decisively different); not all of that influence was good, but I will definitely say that we three are some of the most consistent people you will ever meet (at being able to annoy others, particularly, but usually with an excess of snarky punchlines).

Smirk:
"snark" -- and variations thereof: a favorite of mine

This story is a bit of an indicator of just how similar my brothers and I are.

One autumn weekend a handful of years ago, not too long after 300 had passed through theaters (maybe a year or two after), one of my brothers and I were attending a "retreat" at the Christian camp we had attended each summer since I was about 4 years old. It's a nice, fairly rustic place, and we basically counted our years around that trip, we liked it so much.

We had gathered after the evening meal at the fire pit next to the small pond on the campground, and were having a devotional. Late dusk, the first stars becoming visible in the sky, the last red-orange tinges of sunset fading over the trees west. There might have been about 40 of us in attendance that weekend. Good singing; everybody knew everybody else; we were the "old guard" of that session of camp. You know -- one of those "best" times we can manage here on Third Rock.

The speaker of the hour was giving a word of exhortation regarding unity, togetherness, family, etc. in light of the Word. He was offering a few examples of "real world" parallels to his ideas, and hit a bit of a snag: (paraphrased) -- " . . . just like the fighting style of those guys in that movie . . . 300 . . . I can't remember what it was called . . . ."

My brother and I bailed him out. Demonstrating exactly the unity he was describing, in perfect tempo, in matching intonation, and with the full resonance of the voices good genes have blessed us with, he and I said "Phalanx." I heard some vertebrae *pop* as people turned to look in our direction, we surprised them so much. "Yes! Yes! That's it exactly. Thanks, guys."

We both got the sidelong "weirdo" stares for the rest of that weekend, but he and I liked it, and laugh about it to this day.


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I liked it so much.


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I made two of them.


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But good luck figuring out which is the real me. :-)


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So, I'm new then...


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Perturbedpanther wrote:
So, I'm new then...

And so am I, but not.


Welcome one and all. :D


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Oh, so y'all got jokes do ya!


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Perturbed? Streetwise?

Those are adjectives, not even nouns, let alone synonymous with plans!

*walks off, grumbling and muttering about kids these days and the state of the internet, and how people don't try anymore*


I'm all about quantity over quality.


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Of course, you realize, this means war.


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In fact, it means WARTHOGS.

Don't know whether this is better or worse than Clausewitz Von Gerbil...


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Strategytiger wrote:

Perturbed? Streetwise?

Those are adjectives, not even nouns, let alone synonymous with plans!

*walks off, grumbling and muttering about kids these days and the state of the internet, and how people don't try anymore*

Dude, you need to channel your inner raptor and set about ranting!! "I don't know what you need to do, but I do know, that -- First! -- you've got to get MAD!!"


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Rantraptor wrote:
Because outrage isn't just a plan -- it is the plan.

I thought the plan was to trick a sorcerer into helping complete a ritual to give the Dark One control of which plane the Rifts appear in, in order to use the threat of releasing the Snarl to blackmail the other gods into a series of concessions to improve the lives of goblinoids.


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@Maneuvermoose --

Far too complicated, my friend. Gotta keep plans simple, and such.

Lightning bolts, fireballs, and earthquakes -- oh, my!

Terrible tirades of torturous temptation to transmit tellings of treason to the tune of the tinkling tintinnabulations tolling tabescent times to the timorous throng trembling and taradiddling in their un-tranquil terrain . . . . Little do they know the price of their fears, for the Rantraptor is come . . . .

ka-KAW! ka-KAW!!!


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Something went wrong with this one, I see that now.


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Family. Is. Awesome.

:D


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Strategytiger wrote:

Perturbed? Streetwise?

Those are adjectives, not even nouns, let alone synonymous with plans!

*walks off, grumbling and muttering about kids these days and the state of the internet, and how people don't try anymore*

Streetwise Is a legitimate method of tactical knowledge. Only someone not raised on the streets would say that. :-)


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Everyone forgets me. *sighs*


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@Operationdromedary --

Nice to meet you! Again.

I love the historical reference! Why I can't find anything on the 'net about it, I don't know, but I'm sure that "Operation Dromedary" was an undertaking in the North African Theater during World War II.

I used to be a WWII trivia buff.


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And someone fill in a noob --

What, exactly, *is* FaWtL?


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Forums are Way Too Long.

It's just a hang out thread. There's a history apparently with 5 previously that got so big they wrecked the servers.


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We will break it again I say!


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Gracias, senores!


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Syrus Terrigan wrote:

@Operationdromedary --

Nice to meet you! Again.

I love the historical reference! Why I can't find anything on the 'net about it, I don't know, but I'm sure that "Operation Dromedary" was an undertaking in the North African Theater during World War II.

I used to be a WWII trivia buff.

I... knew that.


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@Operationdromedary --

There's a chance it's not true. I am very much like my father, as I grow older, and I know he remembers a great many things that never happened.

It may have been just a colloquialism used by the troops involved, hence the lack of "official" records; I think it was a last-ditch supply run op put into action by Montgomery in the Egyptian/Libyan zone . . . .

Or I may just be crazy.

Both are equally likely, I expect, and not necessarily mutually exclusive . . . .


We're all crazy, here, guy. It's what we are

And now...

... I have consolidated a second world under my wing(s).

A brief aside on religious entities and concepts of the imps:

The imps have a massive, confused, and often-conflicting set of beliefs and religious concepts, but there are several consistencies.
- Ifrit: the concept and personification of fire, life, and power. Ifrit is considered the patron/matron of impkind and the foe of all the enemies of impkind. In general, though many different takes are made, it is often displayed as a fire-furred creature with horns (anarchic placement often reminiscent of flames), and powerful musculature, and via ious teeth. Often associated with red or orange. Red/orange is considered something of a sacred (though very common) color to wear. Natural fires are recognized as dangerous, but percievdd to be the hordelike destructive wave that allows for new growth and new life to continue.
- Shiva: the destroyer; the personification of all that is cold, death, and weakness. Shiva is considered the foe of all impkind, and the source of their current state of loss - the the specifics differ, the consistent story is that it was Shiva who unleashed the fall of impkind to its current state from its former glory. Ice and snow, then, are generally considered I'll-omens and the sign of the presence of the closest the impkind has to a unified concept of "evil" - that which kills them. Often associated with blue or white; despite sharing a coloration with impkind, this is considered proof of her malevolence, and is never an acceptable color to wear.
- Elders: whether they be genuinely old people, fathers, mothers, or simply stubbornly persistent at a single thing longer than any other varies from imp subculture to subculture; nonetheless, an "elder" is well-respected among impkind. Elders generally become the (defacto) leaders and rulers of a people, guiding them and teaching the old lord to the next generation of coming elders. It is an imp saying that a community with no elders is as dead as a community with no children. In the assault on Corneria city, at a critical moment, the assassins began killing most all of the elders, the majority of the rest dying quickly thereafter due to various natural causes. The reasons remain unknown, but it left impkind bereft of wise guidance or unifying presences. Thus they have drifted into the dregs of Pravoka...
- Corneria: while highly disputed among them, there were persistent legends of an ancient truce/bargain/alliance with those who were once Cornerian and those who were once from Norfonswe. While nothing about this is known to the Cornerian people, it is a matter of sacred religion to those impkind who "remember" it (have it as part of their oral traditions). Of course most find this poppycock. Many felt betrayed by Corneria and so went off in groups to the south to take what was rightfully theirs, while others never believed the stories and took from the wealthy Cornerians by robbery and murder - certainly helping make impkind appear as monsters to the Cornerian people who had no concept of such an acnient truce.

As recently learned by our PCs, via Nrak,

Spoiler!:

A fiery being that was wounded by a PC before she died (she got better; this was in the prologue) was implied (though never actually stated) to be Ifrit - a powerful persuasive tool in ruling the young into Spearland's army and getting them to accept his rhetoric. It effectively made Spearland a prophet of the patron-deity of the impkind people. The elders were less enthused about it, but nevertheless went along with the nearly unstoppable rising tide of disquiet among the young of impkind: after all, the land was dead, the children starving, and life was rotting... so why not blame Corneria?

In any event, Nrak had seen one of the PCs die, and filled in the concepts that several of the PCs had been missing - as well as giving them a view of the "other side" of the conflict - which has cemented the PCs' determination to end Spearland forever (not that they didn't intend to anyway).

Also, the PCs decided to adopt the angry, bitter, snark-ridden imp as part of their group. After all, he has a reason to hate Spearland and the Assassins for betrayal, too... and besides, they "cursed" him by allowing him to "bargain" his way into 4,000 gold. But he can't take that to the under city, as he'd be murdered by his own people for a taste of that much wealth; he can't spend it in the above city, because he'd be murdered as an imp who clearly killed and stole all that wealth; and he can't leave the city, as he'd be hunted and killed as an imp who'd stolen a lot. Hence he's become shackled to the PCs, as surely as if they'd enslaved him... (at least I his estimation/grumbling).


Tacticslion wrote:
Heh. Classic Magic: The Gathering joke.
Syrus Terrigan wrote:

@Tacticslion --

Who said anything about a joke??! I'll burn your face off, dude! I don't always tap that, but when I do, it's red mana!

Grixis is the way to go -- UBR --, really. Stop all the things, kill all the things, burn all the things.

Oh! Oh! I got another classic joke!

Ready?

"Red won a battle after two rounds."

;D

EDIT: added an important emoticon

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