I have a problem. One of my players has created a "broken" character, that is to say that she is ridiculously powerful. in order to challenge this character i would have to throw something at the party that would squash the other players, and it's taking the fun out of the game. i've scoured over the numbers and corrected some of the loopholes but she is still topping out over 90 damage a round at level 10 easy.
to get around this i have started to create encounters that have alternate victory conditions, like time limits, get from point A to point B without this or that happening, take no damage, escort missions and the like but i'm running out of ideas.
halp!
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tell us about your game and the character in question
halp us to halp you
# of players
rules of your game
is it an AP, module, homebrew setting, etc
what is the character in question playing as
the more you give us
the more halp you get
90 points of damage single target? Or AOE? Is he burning resources to do it or is it susteinable?
It doeesn't sound like a lot for Lvl 10. How much damage does the number 2 in the party's damage rank?
For me 90 damage per turn at level 10 doesn't sound that strong.
I have a level 9 pc that can deal equal damage while still being versatile i.e. not purely focused on dealing damage.
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The damage per round at a certain level is irrelevant. The point is that she is significantly more powerful than the other party members, and it is affecting the fun of the game. The simplest solution is to talk to the player about that, and then about rebuilding her character to be more in line with the power level of the other characters. Chances are it will still be a strong character.
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I feel like you guys are missing the point. The character is drastically more powerful than the other character's in the party. It doesn't matter if he/she is more powerful than what's possible for the given level.
My suggestion is to talk to the player in question. Most reasonable players will be happy to work something out.
Edit:
What he said!
Some details about the particular character that is causing the problem would help.
But more than anything, if you find this character to be disruptive than ask the player to tone it down. Tell them it's great to see his level of system mastery, but it dwarfs the other players and makes them feel as though they don't contribute adequately to the game. If the player does not respond well to this, then the player is disruptive and should be removed from the campaign.
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I do want to take a moment to compliment you on your GM skills. Creating alternate encounter expectations from simply "kill everything" to a more dynamic goal is exactly what I would have suggested. I'm sorry to hear it's still not working. I'll agree with everyone else that you may need to sit down one on one with the player and then possibly the whole group to calmly and politely address the matter.
If a character is reducing the fun of the group as a whole then changes need to be made. You need to figure out what is the goal of each person. Some people want to bring the character with the highest damage per round or the craziest character concept or they don't really care just as long as they get a good story out of the deal.
One thing to clarify is who is it taking the fun out of the game for? Is it ruining it for the person playing that character, for the other people or for the GM or some combination. Any of these are a real problem, but the solution is different depending in which is the problem.
In general though, to balance a party you need to do one (or more) of three things.
You can weaken the strong character. This is usually easiest mechanically, but can really upset the player who has spent time to build an effective combination. That person probably really enjoys working towards system mastery, and undoing that effort is somewhat unfair.
You can strengthen the weak characters. If you have the player of the strong character help, this can be quite effective. Some free retaining can quickly make a party more even. If your other characters are weaker because they don't understand how the system works this can be a very strong solution. If though your other characters are weaker because they have different values, perhaps focusing on non-combat options or choosing sub-optimal choices for flavor reasons, this might not work.
Lastly, you can alter the base conditions. Creating more varied encounters, including social encounters, that allow each character to shine or complex encounters with multiple different facets. This can be difficult to do, and requires a delicate touch so you aren't just 'nerfing' the strong character. Archers get really annoyed when every single encounter has foes with wind wall for example.
Their often isn't a perfect solution, but after you more clearly identify the problem and discuss it with your players, hopefully you can use these basic ideas to improve the situation.
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It depends as well, as what is going on. Some classes have a very strong window [Ninja level 10 to 12] enjoys a great window of opportunity where many monsters can't counter their basic greater invisibility tactics with sneak attack every round. But after 11-12...they just keep getting weaker due to the high monster abilities and senses.
Also is the character only good at combat? I mean a fighter with good party support(buffs) etc... only excel at beating stuffs up, so having them do the most damage in the party is okay, since most of the time, they end up not doing much outside of combat.
Dave Justus touched on what I was thinking. Boosting the other players a bit might be a better way to go, and in some respects, might even be easier. Perhaps their gear can be improved (in such a way as to give out gear that is clearly going to go to the other players for instance). (i.e. if the problem player is a Fighter and one of the weak characters is a monk, handing out an Amulet of Mighty Fists +3 is definitely going to go to the monk).
As others have said, 90 damage a round at level 10 isn't necessarily absurdly high, but it is if the rest of the party, for whatever reason, is only dealing 15 damage a round. Heck, my level 9 monk can get around 90 damage a round if the conditions are right. However, my monk would be obscenely overpowered if the rest of the party was only doing 15 damage a round.
Long story short, buffing the "non problem" characters might be a better first step as it will be impossible for the problem player to be legitimately upset, and it will make the "non problem" players that much more excited.
As others have said, 90 damage a round at level 10 isn't necessarily absurdly high, but it is if the rest of the party, for whatever reason, is only dealing 15 damage a round. Heck, my level 9 monk can get around 90 damage a round if the conditions are right. However, my monk would be obscenely overpowered if the rest of the party was only doing 15 damage a round.
I know it is just to show some point but if the other PCs at level 10 just deal 15 damage per round this is either a very special campaign or the other players are the problem, not the one with the woking pc.
As to fixing the problem: I have a player who rolls VERY good, scoring several crits per session with a 20x3 weapon while the rest seldomely has the luck of scoring a crit at all. Sometinmes when one of those big crits would one-hit a big bad I just have him survive with a few hp so the others get to attack, too. I don't do that all the time, mind you. But it is boring for both the other players and me as a gm if the big bads die too quick.
A save or die spell is worse because it is clear that the foe is either dead or not. Damage is just damage. If it's going too well increase the hp, if it's going too bad decrease them.
Long story short, buffing the "non problem" characters might be a better first step as it will be impossible for the problem player to be legitimately upset, and it will make the "non problem" players that much more excited.
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90 points of damage a round is low for level 10. My level 10 bard in PFSP can deal 80+ points in a round melee. I have a feeling you will need to look at the other characters. To see what they did wrong and not what she did right. We will still need information on all the characters. To find out where the problem is. To find a way to fix it.
I feel like you guys are missing the point. The character is drastically more powerful than the other character's in the party. It doesn't matter if he/she is more powerful than what's possible for the given level.
My suggestion is to talk to the player in question. Most reasonable players will be happy to work something out.
Edit:
What he said!
But maybe he is more powerful than the other characters in the party because those characters are underpowered. If every other character is doing 20 dmg per turn at lvl 9, the solution is not to reduce this character to 20 damage per turn. It's to buff everybody else damage.
all excellent suggestions folks. i've had to compensate by cranking out some pretty crazy loot and it balanced it for a while, but then my broken character leveled and unbalanced everything all over again!
talking with the player has proven a mixed bag. he plays a synthesis summoner, and claims that all i would have to do is cast dismissal and he's vulnerable. but that would make the character not only weak, but utterly useless in every regard, so much so that the tables would be flipped -- anything i would throw at them would squash the dismissed summoner for a whole six rounds, by which time the battle would be over. we are heavy roleplayers, and the character is tied up in some plot knots, so sending the character off in lieu of a new one would put a lot of strain on the story.
sliding scale xp sounds plausible, as we have mixed experienced gamers at the table.
he's agreed to spend his evolution points in a more utilitarian style, but i don't feel comfortable keeping my thumb on my players like this, it doesn't seem fair. then again, how fair is it to other players to sit back and let this player hog all the glory, right? you see my predicament...
for the record: home brew world, pathfinder 3.5 mix, three players. we have a kitsune gunslinger, a (homebrew) fey mighty godling and a shabti synthesis summoner. just hit level 12 but these guys are taking on CR16-17 encounters because of the unbalance factor. which of course means they're leveling too fast.
environmental factors sound like a great idea, i like that one.
alternate victory condition encounters? go!
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I think I found the problem. :D
YOU LET THEM PLAY A SYNTHESIS SUMMONER. WHAT WERE YOU EXPECTING TO HAPPEN?
Yes, the problem is that in an apparently casual group, one player has made a character who is significantly more powerful than the rest of the party.
Come on, man. "SYNTHESISTS ARE BROKEN" posts are so 2012.
Yes, the problem is that in an apparently casual group, one player has made a character who is significantly more powerful than the rest of the party.
Come on, man. "SYNTHESISTS ARE BROKEN" posts are so 2012.
LET ME LIVE IN THE PAST!! O^O
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Contributor
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If fellow players have purposefully built their PCs, to be much less powerful, or even viable, I don't see why one player, who built their PC to barely moderate power level, should punished.
I just think the player didn't get the "purposeful self nerf" memo.
Are the other players still having fun?
I'm afraid I don't see where you're getting "purposeful" from. It seems like a classic relative-experience scenario to me. Can you clarify where you got that impression?
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I'm afraid I don't see where you're getting "purposeful" from. It seems like a classic relative-experience scenario to me. Can you clarify where you got that impression?If fellow players have purposefully built their PCs, to be much less powerful, or even viable, I don't see why one player, who built their PC to barely moderate power level, should punished.
I just think the player didn't get the "purposeful self nerf" memo.
Are the other players still having fun?
Well, the player was seemingly expected to build a PC, on the same power level, as the other players.
To accomplish this, the player would need to know the power level of the other players beforehand, and build, with purpose, a PC of comparative power.
In the end, the "broken" characters, are the other PCs.
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make it simple, after an X encounter, he could feel some pain in his/her left arm, then a heart stroke... then natural death. Thats all you need because you cant resurrect someone who dies from natural death :3
Explanation: Its genetical illnes that her family never share with she.
Good way to get rid of the player, not just the pc.
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make it simple, after an X encounter, he could feel some pain in his/her left arm, then a heart stroke... then natural death. Thats all you need because you cant resurrect someone who dies from natural death :3
Explanation: Its genetical illnes that her family never share with she.
Player: "Oh. Oh god, now I'm feeling a tingling in my right arm. What could it be?"
*WHAM*
Player: "Nevermind. Just my urge to punch you. It's gone now. Probably."
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I fully understand the problem.
That said, I feel the "broken", and "ridiculously powerful" titles are completely unwarranted.
I really want to stress that there should be no witch hunt.
Drop a few items to empower the other players, and drop something fun and interesting to the player in question, that doesn't increase their power.
Your player agreed to spend evolutions un non-combat stuff. It seems he's not a spotlight ******
I don't think you need extra measures beyind that. Maybe a couple suggestions to the rest of players (a bit of help building the char will make bigger difference than extra +1 enhancement bonus)
In one game my kobold barbarian is the one dealing the most damage, sometimes by a big margin. When we had some downtime and money to spend I did not ask the crafter to make me a belt of giant strength or similar but a heavyload belt and muleback cords. Now the little bugger can lift reeeaaaly a lot and the others, who got combat relevant stuff had a chance to catch up.
Fun for everyone.
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There is always going to be someone at the table who has the strongest character based on class and picks they made while building the character.
I would not punish them for making a workable character that functions.
Perhaps the other 3 players are terrible at building characters. Your always gonna have someone who is the best in the group at building. Not anyone's fault.
Buff the other players a bit so you can challenge the stronger player without killing the weaklings.
Also offer to help those players who have a hard time mechanically by helping them rebuild if neccerrey.
There is also a huge chuck of player who feel rollplay and roleplay can not mix so they create sub par characters for flavor reasons and don't realize they are nerfing themselves and that those two concepts CAN work together by building a proper character. I have a friend who use to build s#@@ characters for role play and get upset when rollplay happens in combat and his character becomes useless....after giving him a crash course he now builds more balanced characters and doesn't have these issues anymore.
So your kobold barbarian can carry the whole party while carrying the party?In one game my kobold barbarian is the one dealing the most damage, sometimes by a big margin. When we had some downtime and money to spend I did not ask the crafter to make me a belt of giant strength or similar but a heavyload belt and muleback cords. Now the little bugger can lift reeeaaaly a lot and the others, who got combat relevant stuff had a chance to catch up.
Fun for everyone.
The weight would not be the problem. But a small sized guy who uses his teeth and claws to fight might find 4 medium sized guys sitting on his head and shoulders slightly restricting to his combat effectiveness.
He might even have to use a hand (claw) to hold them in place.
90/round sounds OK to me at level 10 or 12 (not sure who's which level in your story). What are the other two PCs doing that they're NOT putting that much damage out?
And don't fall for the banishing trick. The second the eidolon shell disappears, out comes the celestial dire tiger. Oh, and it's hasted.
People who create Synthesis summoners sometimes build them wrong to their advantage - and sometimes unintentionally. I do recommend giving the Synthesis summoners character sheet a long look for errors.
Secondly, if everyone is having fun – do nothing.
Lastly, it’s possible you have one slightly powerful character and three sub-optimal characters. I would pull those character sheets and see. For every overpowered character you run into there are two poorly created ones. That’s where I’d focus my attention.
And like others said: 90/round isn't grossly overpowered.
just hit level 12 but these guys are taking on CR16-17 encounters because of the unbalance factor. which of course means they're leveling too fast.
My first suggestion would be to ditch exp and accept ad hoc leveling (leveling at the speed the plot needs). Assuming you guys don't want to let go of exp, here's an alternative.
Stop throwing CR 16-17 encounters at them (honestly I find it hard to believe the encounters are CR 17, since that would allow a caster with 9th level spells to destroy them).
Stop scaling encounters up to challenge the strongest of them, and the others will do fine. In fact, if he isn't challenged, he'll probably feel more comfortable spending his resources on non-combat options.
I had a player like this, solution was easy: created a nemesis who wanted to steal his power.
Random ninjas and such would follow him around, diviners would watch him constantly... sometimes extra foes would show up during fights with the group so that the nemesis could 'gather info'.
He fixated on the super powerful character, learned his strengths and weaknesses...
He would often send BBEG types to attack, with smaller henchmen to distract the rest of the party...
The party thought it was hilarious, sometimes they got to just sit around and watch him fight his nemesis. One of them even started researching popcorn spells for the fights (Cantrip-Conjure Popcorn, 1st level-Corn Spray, 2nd level-Corn of Cold).
Everyone got equal screen time, just tailored the game to give the super-fighter what he wanted: epic combat.
As long as the group is cool with it, run with it. They don't all have to be equal in power if the group is fine with having a murderhobo on their team.
90/round sounds OK to me at level 10 or 12 (not sure who's which level in your story). What are the other two PCs doing that they're NOT putting that much damage out?
And don't fall for the banishing trick. The second the eidolon shell disappears, out comes the celestial dire tiger. Oh, and it's hasted.
Yep; the funny thing about the Summoner is that by focusing on the eidolon you're actually limiting yourself, the summoner monster SLA's are significantly stronger than anything you can do with the eidolon.
Stop scaling encounters up to challenge the strongest of them, and the others will do fine. In fact, if he isn't challenged, he'll probably feel more comfortable spending his resources on non-combat options.
this approach combined with the utilitarian use of evolution points sound good.
the other two aren't power gamers. one is a beginner and the other enjoys flavor characters more than number output. i try to cater to all three of them accordingly.
being a GM requires a lot of juggling, and i've never run into this much of a problem before on this level. we'll see how this next game goes and i'll post the results.
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Normally the problems with synthesist summoners (and summoners in general) at a table are the bookkeeping required; because you not only have a character sheet but also a non-class related advancement system (evolution points) and abilities that are normally only found on monsters in the vein of those evolution points, it leads to situations where GMs are at a loss for how to adequately challenge the character.
I like to reverse the "no dispel magic on the eidolon" for synthesists to bring their power level back into check, and make items like the anchoring harness more relevant.
However, being that it's a 3.5 pathfinder mix, I'm having a really hard time believing that a synthesist summoner is the most potent thing anyone is doing. If so, good on your group for staying balanced.