|
The Unchained Monk is still MADI keep seeing this claim get made, and I really don't think it's gotten the examination it deserves.
I'm reasonably certain all the Unchained monk needs is Strength and Wisdom. Everything else it can more or less ignore.
Enjoy your god-awful AC without a decent Dex score.
You will need HP more than other martials too, since you don't have the AC to dodge hits even with a good dex.
At low levels monks have a shockingly bad AC, and unchained has not changed this (until they can get their hands on a wand of mage armor monk AC is pathetic).
In keeping with the thread, give me a definition of not "god-awful AC" and we'll test it, shall we?
EDIT: Rough sketch numbers on 20 point buy:
1st level - AC 15, 15 hp, atk +5/+5 for 1d10+6
5th level - AC 21, 49 hp, atk +11/+11 for 1d10+7 or +9/+9 for 1d10+13
10th level - AC 28, 94 hp, atk +20/+20/+15 for 1d10+12 or +17/+17/+12 for 1d10+19
EDIT II: That's with Dex 10 and Con 12 and no wands, just bracers of armor. I also don't really know if there might be a point or two of AC I could squeeze out of the 10th level version, depending on how the money got spent; I really was just quick-sketching there.
The Unchained Monk is still MADI keep seeing this claim get made, and I really don't think it's gotten the examination it deserves.
I'm reasonably certain all the Unchained monk needs is Strength and Wisdom. Everything else it can more or less ignore.
assume a +2 str from race
fighter 18, 12, 14, 10, 13, 10 OR 18, 14, 14, 12, 12, 7Barb 18, 14, 14, 12, 12, 7
monk 18, 12, 14, 12, 14, 7 OR 18, 13, 14, 7, 16, 7 OR 17, 14, 14, 12, 14, 7
lv1 fighter fullplate, weapon, hp = 12, attack +5 2d6+6, AC = 20, 2 OR 3 skills
lv1 Barb breastplate, weapon, hp = 14 or 16, attack +5 2d6+6 or +7 2d6+9, AC = 18 or 16, 5 skills
lv1 Monk nothing, nothing/weapon, hp = 12, attackx2 +5 1d6+4/1d10+6 OR +4 1d6+4/1d10+6, AC = 13 OR 14, 5 OR 2 skills.
Now lv5 once some class features are online
lv5 fighter(weapon focus, spec and str belt +2) fullplate +1, weapon +1, hp=44, attack +13 2d6+11, AC =21 OR 22
lv5 Barb(str belt +2 maybe reckless abandon) breastplate +1, weapon +1, hp=50 or 60, attack +11 2d6+8 or +13 2d6+11 or +15 2d6+11, AC 19 or 17 or 15 (we're 1 level away from more AC from beast totem)
lv5 Monk(str belt +2 amulet mighty fist +1) nothing, nothing, hp=44, attackx2 +11 1d6+6, AC = 13 OR 14, flying kick
lv5 Monk(bracers of armor+2 amulet mighty fist +1) nothing, nothing, hp=44, attackx2 +10 1d6+5, AC = 15 OR 16, flying kick
lv5 Monk(bracers of armor+1 str belt +2) nothing, weapon+1, hp=44, attackx2 +11 1d10+8, AC = 14 OR 15, no flying kick
Well look at that. The Monk's AC is really low (like no care for AC barb low) and it's doing less damage. Because it wanted wisdom which amounts to +1 will save.
1st level - AC 15, 15 hp, atk +5/+5 for 1d10+6
5th level - AC 21, 49 hp, atk +11/+11 for 1d10+7 or +9/+9 for 1d10+13
10th level - AC 28, 94 hp, atk +20/+20/+15 for 1d10+12 or +17/+17/+12 for 1d10+19EDIT II: That's with Dex 10 and Con 12 and no wands, just bracers of armor. I also don't really know if there might be a point or two of AC I could squeeze out of the 10th level version, depending on how the money got spent; I really was just quick-sketching there.
Care to explain how you're getting those numbers? My estimates are showing you should have less HP then you say and no where near that AC with that stats listed.
Care to explain how you're getting those numbers? My estimates are showing you should have less HP then you say and no where near that AC with that stats listed.1st level - AC 15, 15 hp, atk +5/+5 for 1d10+6
5th level - AC 21, 49 hp, atk +11/+11 for 1d10+7 or +9/+9 for 1d10+13
10th level - AC 28, 94 hp, atk +20/+20/+15 for 1d10+12 or +17/+17/+12 for 1d10+19EDIT II: That's with Dex 10 and Con 12 and no wands, just bracers of armor. I also don't really know if there might be a point or two of AC I could squeeze out of the 10th level version, depending on how the money got spent; I really was just quick-sketching there.
Indeed. With 12 Con, the only way I see to get 15 hp is by putting favored class into HP and getting the Toughness feat. Which does skew things a bit. And with 10 Dex you'd need a 20 in wisdom, plus an 18 in strength for the attack numbers.
Doable if you're taking a dual talent human or other race with strength and wisdom buffs, are working on a 25 point buy, and dump a stat down to 7.
Okay that does add up, but how then are you getting the +11s if all your money is in defensive abilities? 5bab+4str=9 where's the other +2 coming from?
The Unchained Monk is still MADI keep seeing this claim get made, and I really don't think it's gotten the examination it deserves.
I'm reasonably certain all the Unchained monk needs is Strength and Wisdom. Everything else it can more or less ignore.
Enjoy your god-awful AC without a decent Dex score.
You will need HP more than other martials too, since you don't have the AC to dodge hits even with a good dex.
At low levels monks have a shockingly bad AC, and unchained has not changed this (until they can get their hands on a wand of mage armor monk AC is pathetic).
Technically they need 2 less con since they gained 1 HD upgrade.
I'd be abit surprised if Unchained Monk gets decent support in the RPG-line (I'd be amazed if Companion-line didn't run with it ASAP), and that's the only line my group uses so unchained monk is probably going to be dead in the water pretty quick for my group.
I'm sure you're capable of expressing your claims without being rude. Please make the effort. We've been having a polite and constructive conversation in this thread so far, let's not spoil it.I just tend to get really annoyed when people say things that patently are not true.
Every class that has been weak at it's inception has stayed weak. Without fail. The core monk is the class that has gone against this the most, and it has managed the mindblowing leap from "Terribad without extreme application of system mastery" to "Basically a fighter with better saves". All the other fairly weak classes (such as the fighter, brawler, gunslinger, swashbuckler, ninja, rogue and cavalier) have barely moved in their capabilities as a class. Frankly, the only reason the monk has improved so much as a class is that it's abilities were so weak, narrow and counter-synergistic that replacing them with merely weak abilites is a massive buff for the class. This is not the case with the new monk - they have enough abilities that aren't counter-synergistic or narrow, but they are mostly pretty weak. Paizo has shown that they will generally avoid printing options that are greatly better than existing options. The new monk *may* get more abilities, but this won't fix the fact that they have a whole pile of weak,short term, minor abilities that are all competing for a handful of ki points, as well as a bunch of style strikes that are going to get ignored because of how critical the mobility flying kick gives is. Adding more variety in the form of equally weak abilities is never going to solve this.
There is another element to why the new monk won't improve significantly. The only reason the old monk has managed to improve as much as it did is because of the abnormally high amount of worthwhile support in non-CRB material that allowed it to break out of it's state of incapability. The new monk will not get this. It is part of an optional ruleset and as such will recieve little to no...
Completely accurate.
The Unchained Monk, still suffers from low AC, MAD and weak class abilities (wholeness of body 'sigh'). A greater improvement over the original yet still very problematic.
On a positive note I do like the modular design elements of the class, similar in design principle to the Slayer class where you can pick and choose many of your class abilities without the need for an archetype.
However, I think it's a bit unrealistic to think the unchained Monk is going to breach the gap between casters and martial characters. If it did, it would make many of the other classes irrelevant.
It's fine if you want to create builds, although you don't need to because this is Pathfinder not D&D 3.5. The disparity between optimising and non-optimising is insignificant, Pathfinder is all about class abilities and archetypes.
p.s I play with a house rule that pretty much gives martial characters 2-3 feats per level (and so do many other players of Pathfinder), so the 10th level Unchained Monk will have around 25 feats in my games, providing plenty of opportunity for the Unchained Monk to pick up the Extra Ki feat multiple times.
I play with a house rule that pretty much gives martial characters 2-3 feats per level (and so do many other players of Pathfinder)
This is the first I've heard of anyone doing that... And it sounds abit extreme.
I play with a house rule that pretty much gives martial characters 2-3 feats per level (and so do many other players of Pathfinder)This is the first I've heard of anyone doing that... And it sounds abit extreme.
Posters, Aelyrinth and Rainzax both use a similar system.
It is extreme, very radical but once I played with this system it felt so natural, like this is how Pathfinder should be played.
For example A 1st level Monk, instead of getting Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat he picks Dragon Style combat technique, at 1st level he gets Unarmed Strike, at 2nd level Dragon Style (for free), at 5th level Dragon Ferocity (for free), at 8th level Dragon Roar (for free).
I have been PLAYING with this system for 2 years and so far it has worked like a charm.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just wanted to pop in and say to Joe M. huge props for the way you not only clearly stated the parameters of what you were trying to determine but then showed your work in crazy detail.
It's a refreshing change and I very much respect it.
- Torger
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, I definitely appreciate the work you've gone to comparing the classes. It does make me feel better about the Unchained Monk, if not completely satisfied.
@Snowblind, Weirdo — I'm more optimistic about the Unchained Monk receiving ongoing support than it seems either of you are, and I'm also pretty confident that it'll get the tricks it needs to play high-opt games for folks who are looking for that, if nothing else than just as a matter of time. More options means more flexibility means more opportunities for high-optimizing players to run their tricks. But that's just a guess about the future, and I suppose time will tell.
Going to clarify here.
It's not that I don't think the Unchained Monk will get support. It's that I don't think that the support it gets will reverse the apparent design decision to remove passive defenses and immunities in favour of abilities that require activation and expenditure of ki.
Actually, I don't really care if the Unchained Monk gets a lot of special support, because I don't think it needs it. They should be able to use most feats and items designed for the monk with a similar benefit. The monk's robe, for example, works just fine, as does the AoMF, the ki focus weapon property or a necklace of ki serenity. Style feats and maneuver feats like ki throw are intact. An "extra ki power" feat is important, but obvious. The only real hole is the archetypes, and they're actually not that hard to convert - just replace ki powers at appropriate levels where the replaced abilities don't exist anymore. I'm planning on doing that on my own. Paizo could formalize it with maybe 3-4 pages (a paragraph per archetype converted) in a Companion (Unchained Origins?), and that's probably a good idea for those not able to use home conversions, such as in PFS.
So I'll spend an hour or two of converting and writing out a touch of homebrew (Diamond Body: as long as the monk has at least 1 ki point he is immune to poison) and I'll have something I'm happy with whether or not Paizo ever publishes anything for the Unchained Monk.
Weapon Focus and a +1 weapon
+1 weapon 2300
Bracers +1 1000ring +1 2000
wis had +2 4000
total 9300 / 10500 and two feats. And using your ki for barkskin. It's allowing you to match other martials. Not too bad I guess, but it doesn't leave you room to deviate as you have 1 free* feat (which you used to grab power attack). Also it seems like a lot of work playing catchup.
|
|
Weapon Focus and a +1 weapon+1 weapon 2300
Bracers +1 1000
ring +1 2000
wis had +2 4000
total 9300 / 10500 and two feats. And using your ki for barkskin. It's allowing you to match other martials. Not too bad I guess, but it doesn't leave you room to deviate as you have 1 free* feat (which you used to grab power attack). Also it seems like a lot of work playing catchup.
I don't really think it's all that much of an effort, really. This is a pretty basic, straightforward weapon monk build. Other than perhaps not buying a belt of strength before the headband of wisdom, what exactly did I do here that is terribly different from any other weapon monk build?
(Sidebar, there's still another feat unaccounted for - monk bonus at 2nd. So I've still got some room to play if I want.)
And yeah, I'm mostly reserving my ki for barkskin, although I don't know how many times a day I'd really need to cast it. It lasts 50 minutes at this level, so I suspect 2 or 3 ki would get me through the day most of the time. But honestly, what else am I using it for? The only other thing I can use it for is extra attacks, and honestly, they're a sometimes food. Look at the fighter you posted above - one attack at 5th, +13 for 2d6+11. By contrast, this monk's attacking at +9/+9 for 1d10+13. That's already going to be comparable DPR without ever needing to buy a 3rd attack. If it's a boss fight or something similar, sure, bust out the extra guns. But for most purposes, I doubt I'd be buying more than 1 extra attack a combat (probably to "pay for" my flying kick opening move).
So really - how MAD is the monk?
Weapon Focus and a +1 weapon+1 weapon 2300
Bracers +1 1000
ring +1 2000
wis had +2 4000
total 9300 / 10500 and two feats. And using your ki for barkskin. It's allowing you to match other martials. Not too bad I guess, but it doesn't leave you room to deviate as you have 1 free* feat (which you used to grab power attack). Also it seems like a lot of work playing catchup.I don't really think it's all that much of an effort, really. This is a pretty basic, straightforward weapon monk build. Other than perhaps not buying a belt of strength before the headband of wisdom, what exactly did I do here that is terribly different from any other weapon monk build?
(Sidebar, there's still another feat unaccounted for - monk bonus at 2nd. So I've still got some room to play if I want.)
And yeah, I'm mostly reserving my ki for barkskin, although I don't know how many times a day I'd really need to cast it. It lasts 50 minutes at this level, so I suspect 2 or 3 ki would get me through the day most of the time. But honestly, what else am I using it for? The only other thing I can use it for is extra attacks, and honestly, they're a sometimes food. Look at the fighter you posted above - one attack at 5th, +13 for 2d6+11. By contrast, this monk's attacking at +9/+9 for 1d10+13. That's already going to be comparable DPR without ever needing to buy a 3rd attack. If it's a boss fight or something similar, sure, bust out the extra guns. But for most purposes, I doubt I'd be buying more than 1 extra attack a combat (probably to "pay for" my flying kick opening move).
So really - how MAD is the monk?
My fighter wasn't including power attack. Otherwise his damage jumps up to +11 2d6+17. The fighter has only spent 8800gp, and has 2 feats free after he takes power attack. I'm not saying it's a huge advantage, but it's there. And I'm not saying your build is different then a normal weapon monk. Just that for the weapon monk to stay on par with other martial classes it's needing more work. Everything you've done has been to keep up.
|
|
My fighter wasn't including power attack. Otherwise his damage jumps up to +11 2d6+17. The fighter has only spent 8800gp, and has 2 feats free after he takes power attack. I'm not saying it's a huge advantage, but it's there.
600 gp and 1 feat difference. Against AC 20, the monk's DPR is 16.50 without Power Attack and 20.36 with it; the fighter's is 12.86 without Power Attack and 15.84 with it. I don't think that qualifies as an advantage at all.
And I'm not saying your build is different then a normal weapon monk. Just that for the weapon monk to stay on par with other martial classes it's needing more work. Everything you've done has been to keep up.
That doesn't answer my question, though. If I'm just buying feats, class abilities and equipment that make sense for more or less any weapon monk build, all I'm buying up is Strength and Wisdom, and the end result is a martial that is doing the martial's job just fine, then I have to ask again - how MAD is the monk, really?
Weapon Focus and a +1 weapon+1 weapon 2300
Bracers +1 1000
ring +1 2000
wis had +2 4000
total 9300 / 10500 and two feats. And using your ki for barkskin. It's allowing you to match other martials. Not too bad I guess, but it doesn't leave you room to deviate as you have 1 free* feat (which you used to grab power attack). Also it seems like a lot of work playing catchup.I don't really think it's all that much of an effort, really. This is a pretty basic, straightforward weapon monk build. Other than perhaps not buying a belt of strength before the headband of wisdom, what exactly did I do here that is terribly different from any other weapon monk build?
(Sidebar, there's still another feat unaccounted for - monk bonus at 2nd. So I've still got some room to play if I want.)
And yeah, I'm mostly reserving my ki for barkskin, although I don't know how many times a day I'd really need to cast it. It lasts 50 minutes at this level, so I suspect 2 or 3 ki would get me through the day most of the time. But honestly, what else am I using it for? The only other thing I can use it for is extra attacks, and honestly, they're a sometimes food. Look at the fighter you posted above - one attack at 5th, +13 for 2d6+11. By contrast, this monk's attacking at +9/+9 for 1d10+13. That's already going to be comparable DPR without ever needing to buy a 3rd attack. If it's a boss fight or something similar, sure, bust out the extra guns. But for most purposes, I doubt I'd be buying more than 1 extra attack a combat (probably to "pay for" my flying kick opening move).
So really - how MAD is the monk?
The extra attack helps the offense out, but AC still needs help. I say that because when people say monk they often mean with no archetype help.
|
|
The extra attack helps the offense out, but AC still needs help. I say that because when people say monk they often mean with no archetype help.
My numbers were pure Unchained monk, no archetypes shoehorned in. And I'm still not seeing the "needs AC" issue. High teens in the early levels, low 20s in the mid levels, high 20s by the double-digit levels - that sounds like where they ought to be to me.
My fighter wasn't including power attack. Otherwise his damage jumps up to +11 2d6+17. The fighter has only spent 8800gp, and has 2 feats free after he takes power attack. I'm not saying it's a huge advantage, but it's there.600 gp and 1 feat difference. Against AC 20, the monk's DPR is 16.50 without Power Attack and 20.36 with it; the fighter's is 12.86 without Power Attack and 15.84 with it. I don't think that qualifies as an advantage at all.
And I'm not saying your build is different then a normal weapon monk. Just that for the weapon monk to stay on par with other martial classes it's needing more work. Everything you've done has been to keep up.That doesn't answer my question, though. If I'm just buying feats, class abilities and equipment that make sense for more or less any weapon monk build, all I'm buying up is Strength and Wisdom, and the end result is a martial that is doing the martial's job just fine, then I have to ask again - how MAD is the monk, really?
First I want to make sure it's clear that I feel your build isn't bad and is a good example of the monk not being as MAD.
Your 1 extra feat is from the monk list, not usually that good or things you go for anyways. And I'm just saying that you're spending all of your feats and abilities and race as a monk to catch up to other martial classes. Want a different Ki Power lower AC, want a cloak of resist? Lower AC. Want a different feat? lower HP or Attack. Want a different race? lower abilities.
if my fighter FCB into HP my HP is the same as yours, and if I took toughness my HP is 54, and I'd still have a free anything feat to your free monk feat and my AC is higher 22 to your 20, your init is lower. Your will saves are a lot better though, no denying that.
My calculations for your lv5 monk against AC 20 is DPR 13.86, With power attack 18.15. and fighter without power was 13.86.
My numbers were pure Unchained monk, no archetypes shoehorned in. And I'm still not seeing the "needs AC" issue. High teens in the early levels, low 20s in the mid levels, high 20s by the double-digit levels - that sounds like where they ought to be to me.The extra attack helps the offense out, but AC still needs help. I say that because when people say monk they often mean with no archetype help.
How are you using ki for barkskin with no archetype? Did I miss something in my book that gives the core monk(unchained) barkskin as an SLA or SU?
"Mid levels" is pretty generic. Could you be more exact?
My numbers were pure Unchained monk, no archetypes shoehorned in. And I'm still not seeing the "needs AC" issue. High teens in the early levels, low 20s in the mid levels, high 20s by the double-digit levels - that sounds like where they ought to be to me.The extra attack helps the offense out, but AC still needs help. I say that because when people say monk they often mean with no archetype help.
How are you using ki for barkskin with no archetype? Did I miss something in my book that gives the core monk(unchained) barkskin as an SLA or SU?
"Mid levels" is pretty generic. Could you be more exact?
this is the unchained monk
My numbers were pure Unchained monk, no archetypes shoehorned in. And I'm still not seeing the "needs AC" issue. High teens in the early levels, low 20s in the mid levels, high 20s by the double-digit levels - that sounds like where they ought to be to me.The extra attack helps the offense out, but AC still needs help. I say that because when people say monk they often mean with no archetype help.
How are you using ki for barkskin with no archetype? Did I miss something in my book that gives the core monk(unchained) barkskin as an SLA or SU?
"Mid levels" is pretty generic. Could you be more exact?
One of the Ki Powers in Unchained is to gain a Qinggong power.
this is the unchained monkMy numbers were pure Unchained monk, no archetypes shoehorned in. And I'm still not seeing the "needs AC" issue. High teens in the early levels, low 20s in the mid levels, high 20s by the double-digit levels - that sounds like where they ought to be to me.The extra attack helps the offense out, but AC still needs help. I say that because when people say monk they often mean with no archetype help.
How are you using ki for barkskin with no archetype? Did I miss something in my book that gives the core monk(unchained) barkskin as an SLA or SU?
"Mid levels" is pretty generic. Could you be more exact?
I typed in barkskin, and it went directly to the summoner, bypassing the monk. What page is this on?
One of the Ki Powers in Unchained is to gain a Qinggong power.My numbers were pure Unchained monk, no archetypes shoehorned in. And I'm still not seeing the "needs AC" issue. High teens in the early levels, low 20s in the mid levels, high 20s by the double-digit levels - that sounds like where they ought to be to me.The extra attack helps the offense out, but AC still needs help. I say that because when people say monk they often mean with no archetype help.
How are you using ki for barkskin with no archetype? Did I miss something in my book that gives the core monk(unchained) barkskin as an SLA or SU?
"Mid levels" is pretty generic. Could you be more exact?
Ok, I see it now. I missed that one.
I typed in barkskin, and it went directly to the summoner, bypassing the monk. What page is this on?this is the unchained monkMy numbers were pure Unchained monk, no archetypes shoehorned in. And I'm still not seeing the "needs AC" issue. High teens in the early levels, low 20s in the mid levels, high 20s by the double-digit levels - that sounds like where they ought to be to me.The extra attack helps the offense out, but AC still needs help. I say that because when people say monk they often mean with no archetype help.
How are you using ki for barkskin with no archetype? Did I miss something in my book that gives the core monk(unchained) barkskin as an SLA or SU?
"Mid levels" is pretty generic. Could you be more exact?
On p19 there is Qinggong power(Su). It is literally "get a power you qualify for from the Ultimate Magic Qinggong archetype".
So is anyone accounting for the fact that you can get discounts on ki powers by taking them as qinggong powers?
So is anyone accounting for the fact that you can get discounts on ki powers by taking them as qinggong powers?
Mark has clarified that the Unchained monk's qinggong powers are unchained versions if an unchained version exists.
So is anyone accounting for the fact that you can get discounts on ki powers by taking them as qinggong powers?
official ruling has been clarified that those versions aren't available.
|
|
First I want to make sure it's clear that I feel your build isn't bad and is a good example of the monk not being as MAD.
Fair enough. Taken in the spirit that it's meant.
Your 1 extra feat is from the monk list, not usually that good or things you go for anyways.
True, but cancelled out to a great extent by the "ignoring prereqs" part of it, which the fighter doesn't get to share. For this monk, I'm pretty sure it'd be Improved Disarm, since he's using a sansetsukon anyway.
And I'm just saying that you're spending all of your feats and abilities and race as a monk to catch up to other martial classes. Want a different Ki Power lower AC, want a cloak of resist? Lower AC. Want a different feat? lower HP or Attack. Want a different race? lower abilities.
I do get what you're saying here, although I don't probably value it the way you do - I'd be able to still make a pretty similar, pretty effective character with a half-elf, half-orc or dwarf, for instance. (Although I still have the gold for a cloak of resistance, for the record.) But on the other hand, I see this kind of argument made a lot in a lot of different places, and I have never understood it. How does one instance of "spending my feats and choosing my class abilities and spending my gold to maximize my character's effectiveness within my concept" differ from another? It's not like your fighter or barbarian is just standing there naked, with nothing but Skill Focus feats. What, for instance, about either character means I couldn't flip it around and say, "You're spending all of your feats and abilities and race as a fighter to catch up to other martial classes?"
if my fighter FCB into HP my HP is the same as yours, and if I took toughness my HP is 54, and I'd still have a free anything feat to your free monk feat and my AC is higher 22 to your 20, your init is lower. Your will saves are a lot better though, no denying that.
All of this is freely acknowledged, in particular the initiative thing. It's worth noting, though, that the still-good Reflex save means that the monk's Ref save is also better than even the Dex 14 fighter's. But yes, you're right. It's certainly not across-the-board superior. If it were, I'd probably be saying something else.
My calculations for your lv5 monk against AC 20 is DPR 13.86, With power attack 18.15. and fighter without power was 13.86.
You're right about your fighter, that was a typo. The monk DPR is right, though, because the sansetsukon is a 19-20 weapon.
|
|
"Mid levels" is pretty generic. Could you be more exact?
Others have already addressed the other part, so I'll just quote myself from the top of the page:
EDIT: Rough sketch numbers on 20 point buy:
1st level - AC 15, 15 hp, atk +5/+5 for 1d10+6
5th level - AC 21, 49 hp, atk +11/+11 for 1d10+7 or +9/+9 for 1d10+13
10th level - AC 28, 94 hp, atk +20/+20/+15 for 1d10+12 or +17/+17/+12 for 1d10+19EDIT II: That's with Dex 10 and Con 12 and no wands, just bracers of armor. I also don't really know if there might be a point or two of AC I could squeeze out of the 10th level version, depending on how the money got spent; I really was just quick-sketching there.
Ok, those AC's are not bad, but I personally don't like 12 con. I still see it as MAD. If that will save was not dropped the wisdom could be dropped, and the other ability points could be moved over to dex and/or constitution.
I do like 14 constitution, and me not liking the monk with a low will save probably means this monk always have some level of MADness.
Of course we could move the strength over to constitution, but then we sacrifice DPR.
I am probably just going to have to try to build one on my own, since I am picky about builds.
Stuff
You've definitely done a good job showing that a monk build that isn't MAD exists. I feel it is a rather specific build, but like you say, it's easily the standard way you'd go for a weapon monk. I feel I've done a well enough job highlighting why the Monk could still be considered MAD and have nothing left to say. People can read our discussion and decide if they feel it's MAD or not.
|
|
And I think that's the issue. I think people choose builds for the monk that make it MAD rather than having it baked into the class. And frankly, I have no issue with that - in fact, I do it too. (The above build notwithstanding, my preferred dual-talent human monk build on 20 point buy is actually Str 17, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 8.) But I think it's worth remembering that it's not the class' fault when we do it, and criticism based on "how MAD the monk still is" should be taken with a grain or two of salt.
And I think that's the issue. I think people choose builds for the monk that make it MAD rather than having it baked into the class. And frankly, I have no issue with that - in fact, I do it too. (The above build notwithstanding, my preferred dual-talent human monk build on 20 point buy is actually Str 17, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 8.) But I think it's worth remembering that it's not the class' fault when we do it, and criticism based on "how MAD the monk still is" should be taken with a grain or two of salt.
I think it's the feeling that the majority of monk builds are MADer than similar builds in other classes.
@Snowblind, Weirdo — I'm more optimistic about the Unchained Monk receiving ongoing support than it seems either of you are, and I'm also pretty confident that it'll get the tricks it needs to play high-opt games for folks who are looking for that, if nothing else than just as a matter of time. More options means more flexibility means more opportunities for high-optimizing players to run their tricks. But that's just a guess about the future, and I suppose time will tell.
@Wraithstrike — Ughbash is referring to the Falchion Fred I put together in my <Reference: Basic Fighter Builds> thread that I used for comparison here, rather than the "original" Falchion Fred (I don't even know where he first came up, honestly—that was before my time on the boards). I checked the numbers at 2, 5, 8, 11 (evenly spaced across PFS play).
@Tels — It seems to me that a *lot* of people have been saying the Unchained Monk is a weak class. But any way about it, it just doesn't seem right to call it a "side grade" compared to the Core Monk. <Check my numbers upthread!>
The Unchained Monk *might* represent a "side grade" if we're comparing [relatively optimized Core Monk drawing on supplemental material and archetypes] to [basic, Core-only Unchained Monk], but that's not an apples-to-apples comparison and it doesn't license a judgment that *the class itself* is somehow a "side grade" (it's plain, I think, that the Unchained Monk is a clear upgrade in comparison to the Core Monk, just comparing the classes themselves). Now, you *might* be able to get to the "side grade" conclusion if you couple that sort of apples-to-oranges comparison with an expectation like Snowblind's that the Unchained Monk will not receive future support and that this is the best that it will ever get. But that seems unlikely to me, and even if it works out that way I'd still...
I have to agree with Snowblind here. Granted, we don't know for a fact that there won't be any supplementary material supporting the UCMonk but Pathfinder Unchained does seem to have more of a feel akin to things like Words of Power as opposed to APG/ACG/UC/UM and so on. Consider, too, that in stipulating that the UCMonk, among all of the unchained classes, was explicitly denied access to all present archetypes, any new material would either need to add an equal number of new options for all classes or focus more exclusively on UCMonk options. In either case in order for the UCMonk to start "catching up" in terms of the number of additional options that all the other classes can access, the amount of relative focus would now need to be imbalanced in favor of the UCMonk, which seems highly unlikely.
Furthermore, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that would should compare UCMonk as it stands now only to Core, non-expanded options. The fact is the CRBMonk exists now along with numerous archetypes which have managed to address, to one degree or another, the deficiencies of the original CRBMonk. Likewise, all of the other classes exist now, including UCBarbarian, UCRogue and UCSummoner, and all still have the archetypes and optional features available to them which UCMonk currently lacks. Put differently, if I start playing a new character today, and must make the determination of which class to choose, I will be comparing all classes as they are now to UCMonk as it is now, not to UCMonk as it might be in the future.
So is anyone accounting for the fact that you can get discounts on ki powers by taking them as qinggong powers?Mark has clarified that the Unchained monk's qinggong powers are unchained versions if an unchained version exists.
Pretty sure, a long time back a designer said comments on the boars are not official rules till we get a FAQ/errata.
|
|
Pretty sure, a long time back a designer said comments on the boars are not official rules till we get a FAQ/errata.So is anyone accounting for the fact that you can get discounts on ki powers by taking them as qinggong powers?Mark has clarified that the Unchained monk's qinggong powers are unchained versions if an unchained version exists.
That's true, but Mark described it not as errata or even really a FAQ, but as a direct result of the clause in the Unchained book that says you only have access to the Unchained or regular version of the monk, not both. So you can buy the powers through the qinggong ki power, but you get the Unchained version anyway, because that version takes precedence. The other one "doesn't exist" for you, essentially.
That's true, but Mark described it not as errata or even really a FAQ, but as a direct result of the clause in the Unchained book that says you only have access to the Unchained or regular version of the monk, not both. So you can buy the powers through the qinggong ki power, but you get the Unchained version anyway, because that version takes precedence. The other one "doesn't exist" for you, essentially.Pretty sure, a long time back a designer said comments on the boars are not official rules till we get a FAQ/errata.So is anyone accounting for the fact that you can get discounts on ki powers by taking them as qinggong powers?Mark has clarified that the Unchained monk's qinggong powers are unchained versions if an unchained version exists.
I mean, if you don't want to do it that way in your games, that's cool too. It's Unchained; you should be going out and unchaining your games to optimize the fun for your group, not listening to me about close interpretations of rules text!
The thing is the Qinggong list has its own ki costs to activate abilities or spells, so rules as written for the qinggong powers, you'd use them at the qinggong cost.
|
Quick note. I haven't forgotten this thread or given up on the project! Work's been very busy for the past week and it looks like that will continue for a while, but I'll be back to this when I get a chance.
The next project will be filling out the builds at some or all of the in-between levels and maybe moving up toward 14 or 15 to make sure that the selective test I went with at first isn't skewing the comparison (as Ughbash suggested upthread, it might be the case that some of these builds just happen to be particularly good or particularly bad at those levels).
:-)
Joe M. Thanks for the hard work. I have similar conclusions as you about the class and consider it a straight upgrade. I dont play pfs so luckily house ruling archetypes is a very easy thing for us, thus losing nothing and gaining another fantastic option.
No more updates?
|
|
I set this aside for a while for a few reasons. Mostly, work got busy. But I also just grew kind of sick of the messageboard debate about the Unchained Monk and felt like I'd at least mostly learned and shown what I wanted to lean and show with this test, if not as thoroughly or as clearly as my perfectionist impulses might prefer.
But I still have my records and my plans from all this so I may come back around to it in the next couple weeks now that work's cleared up a bit, give it a go at a more thorough test, the full 1-15 range.
:-)
Please, do it. Whenever you can.
:)
I always felt like the Paladin would make a better comparison to the monk than the fighter. Aside from Paladins just being better, they have a lot of parallels with the monk.
-They bith have class features tied to a mental stat.
-They are both designed to have better saves than a fighter.
-They both have resource pools to manage. Spells, smites, and lay on hands are much closer to ki powers than fighter features.
I'd like to run some home brew tests to compare monk fixes with Paladin performance.