Kingdom Building in Nimmeria

Iron Gods

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This actually maybe more appropriate under Kingmaker but I'll post here first.

My players want to do kingdom building with Scrapwall as their initial starting hex. Numeria seems ripe for this type of play as its so chaotic. It's essentially one huge bandit kingdom outside of Starfall. Which isn't much better either.

After reading the Ultimate Campaign rules on this I put together some info for my players including a hex map. But I wanted to know if any DMs who have run Kingmaker or anyone doing the same thing in Numeria would care to chip in.

At the moment I am working on filling out the hexes around Scrapwall with interesting things and putting together some events. I am also slowly reading through Kimgmaker just for reference/inspiration and ideas.

My players have basically said that why enter Starfall covertly when they can just take out the League with an army. Which is fine - more than one way to skin a cat. But it kind of changes the AP dramatically if they do that. Though the biggest impact is on the last two adventures more than anything else.

Silver Crusade

Technic league won't let them grow that big. As soon as they expand beyond Scrapwall the Technic league will immediately send agents both overt and subversive. If not them, then the black sovereign as he won't entertain the idea of another self-proclaimed king.

I'm sure you can work something out if you really want it though.

As I said, that's their plan, I won't be letting them get away with this without making it very hard.

My view is that if they establish a dominion successful enough for the TL to notice they would send a delegation and make the same offer that Torch and Chesed have - pay your tax and bend the knee to the Black Soverign and they will happy. As time goes by they will want a full embassy, then full access to the tech ruins and so on.

Demands will slowly become more onerous. If my players keep agreeing that will buy them time but eventually the TL will come for them. Assuming the characters are successful at all. They may fail.

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I know they might have to wait a bit of a while in real time playing through the next 3 books, but have you considered trying to postpone this full kingdom until after the 5th book?

Also scrap wall is pretty well known to the tech league so if some new up starts come along and take it over I doubt they would really care, I mean Hellion is a "god" of sorts and they don't even know about him really.

I think if they took scrap wall and made it into a "base" instead of a city growing up into a country they could avoid the league much better, and it would be hard to get people to start moving into scrap wall given its reputation.

But if your talking about the tech league not noticing things, you can look at

The Choking Tower:
I mean he ran away with a bunch of their stuff and they can't find him / don't bother him in his super obvious wizard tower

So something to consider about how "powerful and all seeing" the tech league is.
You don't really draw their attention until your in star fall banging at their door and tearing their organization to pieces.

Yeah. The TL seems disorganised and arrogant. Appropriate for their org alignment of CE. I am going to play it by ear for now.

I agree. I prefer they start doing this after adventure 4 minimum. At this point they have all the pieces they need to either to a "surgical strike" or build an army and got shock and awe.

Any idea how big an army the league could muster?

Solomani wrote:

Yeah. The TL seems disorganised and arrogant. Appropriate for their org alignment of CE. I am going to play it by ear for now.

I agree. I prefer they start doing this after adventure 4 minimum. At this point they have all the pieces they need to either to a "surgical strike" or build an army and got shock and awe.

Any idea how big an army the league could muster?

What's up Solomani I've been following your post since you first posted in FOC . Congrats on your campaign and its ideas ....much love .

Ok for your question as to the army the tech league could bring . I imagine them as I would if the pathfinder society had army since they remind me a lot of each other. You could use sample npcs as pawns for laser fodder but I think they would be adventuring groups that fought like a rival party of adventures would fight . Kinda like the group you made for the choking tower . An all out war ? No but smash and grab spec ops missions? Yes! I would make the tech league super strong as well and give players the cool old school James bond feel on some missions. This option would make them go to the palace and not railroad your adventure. ( IM sure you don't believe in railroading just a different path for your players but I'm going to use the word anyways )If the tech league had an army it would be like special teams in football terms. They wouldn't be on the field all the time ,only when needed . That's my two cents . Whatever you decide I'm sure you will be fair ( reading all your past post dealing with this AP)

Thanks Arcasus!

I am also thinking the bulk of their army would actually be barbarians. BUT the barbarians hate the TL and the Black Soverign doesn't seem to be much liked either. Was thinking potentially a tribe or two may turn against the TL as well.

Solomani wrote:

Thanks Arcasus!

I am also thinking the bulk of their army would actually be barbarians. BUT the barbarians hate the TL and the Black Soverign doesn't seem to be much liked either. Was thinking potentially a tribe or two may turn against the TL as well.

What's the run down so far ? Have you guys played since the olauers talked about making an army out of androids? In reguards to tribes rebelling against the TL, having players go talk to the tribe elders would make for a decent side quest . Just let me know what's going on . I'm thinking about starting up this AP but I've not decided if I want to commit since I would have to play online with roll d20

We had a session last night, but since they are in the middle of the choking tower they discussed kingdom building but that was it. They tried to convince iadeveigh to make an alliance but the Deadeye council pointed who are they making an alliance with - players have no dominion yet.

Shadow Lodge

This isn't about kingdom building, but one of my players is offended by the idea that the Technic League has the iron grip on technological exports that they do. Surely, in any logical world, the River Nations would be overflowing with laser pistols, and no competent secret society would be able to stop that (consider how bad we are at stopping illegal smuggling of animals and people in the modern US, with all the surveillance tools at our disposal). If I portray the League as even a little bumbling, her entire suspension of disbelief will be shot, and she'll take the rest of the group with her. :-(

So now I need a logical reason why the League does the things they do, to provide a consistent explanation for the fact that the crash didn't uplift the entire Inner Sea into the 22nd century.

Hi Doram,

The one source of reliable tech is the Silver Mount. The TL has a 100% stranglehold on that source (aided and abetted by UNITY as well). Even then most of the tech is timeworn so it really can't be reversed engineered or have any kind of extended life expectancy anyway.

The small ruins outside of the silver mount are either well hidden (Torch), have deadly guardians (like Iadenveigh) or are directly controlled by the TL as well. This is reinforced by the fact that the local tribes fear and hate the silver ruins dotted throughout the land and actively hide/destroy them when they can.

I would expect some seepage outside of Nimmeria but nothing of note or mostly stuff that doesn't work anymore or will soon fail. Only the TL has the technical skill to even understand how many of the techs work. And even their knowledge is far from complete. There is no way medieval style kingdoms could even begin to reverse engineer technology from the 25th century.

Shadow Lodge

I like that last limiting factor, in particular. Over hundreds of years, no matter how well the Kellids protected the ruins, treasure hunters would have gotten in (just look at the pyramids!), but if most of the tech blows up unless you know how to use it, and the Technic League is good about running down people who know, that's a reasonable reason.

Of course, that means that the Technic League has to be portrayed as competent, with an effective command structure and network of spies...

It might even be reasonable to use Khonnir Baine to make the point that the TL used to be ruthless and efficient, but recently they've changed their focus and lost a little ground.

Hi Doram, what gives you the impression the TL is incompetent? I tend to think their relatively competent but it's their hubris which allows them to slip up now and then (with regards to tech leakage at least).

Shadow Lodge

Solomani - I think it was in the Fires of Creation thread that we were talking about the impression that the adventure leaves on players. The TL has allowed Torch to remain untouched, and Hajath Hagados, and Iadenveigh, and Scrapwall. My players, at least, are going to question how so much tech-related shenanigans could go on right in Numeria, under their very noses, if they're supposed to be so good at keeping technology from spreading. As written, if there were someone is Torch or HH smuggling technology down the Seven Tears into the River Kingdoms, the League wouldn't have any knowledge of it, because their spies are that bad.

The problem is, if the League is good at their jobs, they're going to stomp the party outside of Iadenveigh, while they still can. If the League's spies are any good at all, and the party has any technology, the PCs should never make it to Starfall. I feel like we have a choice between playing the League as bumbling, which ruins the "secret masters of Numeria" feel, or playing them as competent and crushing the party early.

I think there is a middle way - competent but competitive. The Captains are individually powerful and are almost like their own faction. So though they can be powerful if united, they usually are not, which lets things get by.

This fits their chaotic (individualistic) nature. If they were more LE then I would agree with you - they would try and stomp the party as soon as they could. But the individual captains are working at cross purpose all the time.

Silver Crusade

Ive got a hex map i created on large hex paper that covers the whole of the lands in the area of the campaign. Its at my brothers house with my gaming stuff (as we play tonight). Ill take a picture of the big map and scan a couple different copies of the regular graph paper maps, one of the environment and one with the various kingdoms i created on it.
My party has just gone into the Choking Tower at 8 players CL 8, i had to bump difficulty a bit but that wasnt too hard.

Basically they took over torch and the surrounding area, explored and claimed NE towards Scrapwall, Explored around scrapwall. Now their kingdom is 36 hexes i think. (or 37 i keep forgetting)

They have destroyed a tax collection force, stolen the vehicles. Druid used plant growth to return the battle field to before battle appearance.

The TL that they have encountered have been bumbling fools. Or overwhelmingly strong. Strictly depending on how many captains are working together or against each other on a TL mission.

They are paying taxes to the Black Horse Tribe for them to send onto the soverign

Yeah, would like to see your map. My players wanted Torch or even Iadenveigh but I said unless they use force they won't submit. To me Scraperll is the most logical starting point.

How did your players get Torch? And ate those hexes connected? If so that's huge swath of land they have taken.

My players entered the tower at level 7 but there are 7 of them so I didn't up the power. Really the only thing on there that will be s challenge is the TL archeological team. Even Furksd is just an annoyance.

Silver Crusade

it was a late session w a few ales afterwords tonight, just getting home now. map sometime today.

Players got Torch:

When the campaign started most the council was incapacitated from the headaches and trots. Of the others. (which i had gamers not in the campaign play an NPC and give me what they would for each of the council members)

My initial Torch Council
Khonnir (Tech researcher) - Owes his life to the party.

Celda (runs the farms outside of Torch)- dont care whos in charge as long as her farms are safe.

Joram Kyte (high priest of Brigh) - once was clued into the ship below and granted access to its database. voted in the party's favor.

Bazlunda (head of smithing guild) - For relighting the Torch so her guild could go back to work forging skymetal she voted in their favor.

Dolga (founder of torch and head of council) - She was just tired. shes been in charge of these humans for a hundred years. She just wants to work at her forge for her last couple of years.

Serentha Olandir was lighting shocked until dead than eaten by the Styxx in the party as punishment for hiring mercs and trying to forcibly take over the Silver Disk Hall after the party took the deed to it from the warehouse.

Both Laris and Lucious VanDozer were in league with Miranda and died in the ship, no trace of their bodies remained after they were eaten by the Styxx.

Before the party departed for Scrapwall, they spent all of their funds to create a public transportation network in Torch, carrages, wagons, rickshaws, were purchased by the dozens. Drivers were hired by the scores. 100 elite soldiers were hired by the players and gifted to the council. A popular vote was held called by my cousin across the country who was roleplaying Dolga (via email before the game session they left Torch)

Their first acts as rulers were to build a road from torch to Aldaron's Grave and claim the lands it adjacent to torch.

im kinda fudging the time it takes to build a crude road. Highways are standard time, but a simple dirt packed road. i ruled they can make that with a few hundred people and wagons of supplies following behind them.

all of their hexes are connected.

Sweet! Now I really want to see your map.

I don't know Iron Gods, but I am midway through Kingmaker:

* You might want to tweak some of the costs, etc., for farmland and such to reflect the different land type in Numeria.

* If you get time, download Ultimate Rulership. It has some rules options (particularly concerning building military units) you might find useful.

* If you have even more time and money, check out Ultimate Battle and Ultimate War. Some stuff in those books might help you adjudicate battles that involve clockwork blimps and futuretech giant spiders.

Hi Pennywit, I grabbed UC which is perfect. I have a bunch of ideas that I have not fleshed out yet as my players are still in The Choking Tower. I will then make them decide what they want to do next. Pursue Cassandalee into the Scar or focus more on the Kingdom stuff. I'll add anything I make to the forums for other DMs as well if it goes anywhere

Hi, I'm avoiding spoilers for this AP, but if you can fit the kingdom-building in, I encourage it. But I also STRONGLY encourage you to pick up Legendary Games' Ultimate Rulership. That book contains a few rules I'm planning to implement (and a few I wish I had put into place at the beginning, but I can't put into play now).

It's especially helpful if you get your players to build their cities and towns themselves. Keep notes of what they build. Introduce some NPCs. Give them relationship issues with their neighbors. You do all of this, of course, so that you can knock it all down, or at least try to. At my Kingmaker table, I've discovered that my players are quite attached to their little kingdom.

Once PCs get to level 10 or 12, it gets tough to challenge them if the players are competent. On the other hand, if an enemy attacks a rather vulnerable frontier outpost ...

I'll take a look. Thanks Penny!

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