Pricing Mithral Armor for Unusual Creatures


Rules Questions

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This is what I mean, what happens if I use 'masterwork transformation'?


you pay the cost that it would take to make it masterwork and it becomes masterwork. for a large weapon that would be 600gp

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm currently operating under the assumption that it's also multiplied when using the spell for the replacement armor for my mammoth.

If I can get away with paying 150 gp for masterwork transformation, it'd save me 1050 gp (masterwork for huge non-humanoid would be 1200).

I really don't like the way this has been ruled, it basically makes special materials non-existent for anything large or bigger, because you can't ever fit it into wealth by level standards.


Chess Pwn wrote:
you pay the cost that it would take to make it masterwork and it becomes masterwork. for a large weapon that would be 600gp

masterwork isn't a special material though so it would remain 300gold

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Lady-J wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
you pay the cost that it would take to make it masterwork and it becomes masterwork. for a large weapon that would be 600gp
masterwork isn't a special material though so it would remain 300gold

You missed the fact that masterwork is added before multiplication:

Cost Multipliers for Items: When an item has a cost multiplier, for instance for its size, unusual shape, or composition, does that apply before or after additional costs such as for making the item masterwork or using a special material?

All cost multipliers apply after you add up the total cost of the item before the multiplier.


Damanta wrote:

I'm currently operating under the assumption that it's also multiplied when using the spell for the replacement armor for my mammoth.

If I can get away with paying 150 gp for masterwork transformation, it'd save me 1050 gp (masterwork for huge non-humanoid would be 1200).

I really don't like the way this has been ruled, it basically makes special materials non-existent for anything large or bigger, because you can't ever fit it into wealth by level standards.

masterwork transformation says you pay as much as it takes to masterwork the material, typically 300 for a weapon, but atypically it's 600 cause for a large weapon.


Damanta wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
you pay the cost that it would take to make it masterwork and it becomes masterwork. for a large weapon that would be 600gp
masterwork isn't a special material though so it would remain 300gold

You missed the fact that masterwork is added before multiplication:

Cost Multipliers for Items: When an item has a cost multiplier, for instance for its size, unusual shape, or composition, does that apply before or after additional costs such as for making the item masterwork or using a special material?

All cost multipliers apply after you add up the total cost of the item before the multiplier.

well that's dumb master work cost should remain constant


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From now on I am so making all my Mithral armor tiny in any campaign that uses this FAQ.

There is zero reason for size to scale the cost of a mechanical benefit other than 'verisimilitude'.

Adamantine, Mithral, etc provides a flat benefit regardless of size.

But, I don't do PFS so I guess it doesn't matter. LOL

Now if only they would FAQ/Errata rules that are actually confusing/broken such as the mounted combat rules or the 2handed vs 1handed FAQ conflict. :P


This makes it easy to calcuate for boatloads of NPCs, but makes armor pretty hard to afford for larger critters.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
but makes armor pretty hard to afford for larger critters.

Only in PFS: for EVERYONE else, it got cheaper with tiny + fitting.

Grand Lodge

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Wait, isn't this directly contrary to how item costs have been officially calculated previously? It appears to be an errata rather than an FAQ.

For example, every published example of a cold iron weapon (double the cost of the weapon) appears to double the base price and then add masterwork cost.

This also breaks the ancestral weapon trait I believe, as any mwk. cold iron weapon would be above the 500 gp limit.

I'll probably be ignoring this outside of PFS as it breaks too many things.

Edit: I just checked and the official listed price for a cold iron longsword is 330 gp. Which runs directly contrary to this. And to make things even more problematic, since that's a specific item printed in the CRB it's currently still available at that price.

So every masterwork cold iron weapon just got way more expensive, unless it's a longsword.


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Exactly, this is a poor thought it answer. It makes cost prohibitly high, and it encourages exploiting the system due to being able to get a price reducing, and people will hunt for those options because the normal price it too high. It seems the choice to needlessly nerf a handful of of player options and make the rules confusing, for no actual benefit to anything.

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder Superscriber

Yeah, this is a rules change. Of the worst sort. It takes something that was already fiddly and complicated, and makes it differently fiddly and complicated. It is, effectively, a punishment tax on those who pay a lot of attention to FAQs. I suspect *very* few GMs are going to bother enforcing this in PFS, and a lot of people will legitimately never think to look for an FAQ on their purchases, given that examples in the CRB make it clear that it works the other way.

Every time the design team makes a rules change like this, it makes me want to throw up my hands and give up on Pathfinder. Or at least on PFS.


Are there large+ monster entries with gear and great guideline amounts? Cause masterwork now takes up an even bigger portion of their wealth and makes their gear sell for significantly more

Grand Lodge

I suppose all my PFS characters will just have to carry cold iron longswords so they don't have to pay a crazy price for a cold iron weapon.

Not too big of a problem I guess, just very annoying and definitely an errata rather than an FAQ.


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The calculation was always arbitrary as far as RAW went. I am NOT happy with this, but don't see how it qualifies as a rules change.

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder Superscriber

The example the design team gives in the FAQ directly contradicts this text from the CRB:

Pathfinder CRB wrote:


Create Masterwork Items: You can make a masterwork
item: a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that
conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional
craftsmanship. To create a masterwork item, you create
the masterwork component as if it were a separate
item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork
component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon
or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield, see Chapter
6 for the price of other masterwork tools) and a Craft
DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the
masterwork component are completed, the masterwork
item is finished. The cost you pay for the masterwork
component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is
for the cost in raw materials.

How much of the CRB are they going to rewrite with this FAQ?

Or is there any hope they will come out and admit that they made a mistake with this FAQ, and that they should make a ruling consistent with text all over the place in the CRB?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The example they used was Mithril, where being Masterwork is a part of it being Mithril and not its own separate thing.

Grand Lodge

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Right, but the FAQ itself also applies to other materials like coldiron which Masterwork is not a part of. So it does contradict the Masterwork rules as normal.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Right, but the FAQ itself also applies to other materials like coldiron which Masterwork is not a part of. So it does contradicts the Masterwork rules as normal.

Yes, Cold Iron is the outlier here (I was specifically responding to Rknop saying the example in the FAQ contradicted the CRB).

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder Superscriber

The rule still directly contradicts the text I quoted. Replace "Mihtral" with "Masterwork" in their example (which clearly give the result that the FAQ is giving us), and it directly contradicts the CRB's text.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
rknop wrote:
The rule still directly contradicts the text I quoted. Replace "Mihtral" with "Masterwork" in their example (which clearly give the result that the FAQ is giving us), and it directly contradicts the CRB's text.

How so?

Base Armor + Masterwork x Size, reads right to me.

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder Superscriber

In the CRB text, the masterwork component is 300gp for armor, 150gp for weapons.

That doesn't say anything about size.

If you want to think about it from a reasonable point of view (which, granted, is ill-advised when it comes to the Pathfinder rules set), if size mattered then why is a masterwork greatsword +300gp and a masterwork dagger also +300gp?

Masterwork weapons are +300gp, according to the CRB.

They are not according to the FAQ.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Masterwork weapons sized for Small and Medium creatures, which is what the Craft skill is assuming being used by, are +300g.

Which is what this FAQ addresses, an area where the rules were borderline non-existent.

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder Superscriber

Why do you make that assumption? The rules don't say small and medium creatures. They say *masterwork*. They explicitly say that the masterwork component is a *separate component*. The rules elsewhere in the book give you costs for things, including different sizes. The masterwork component is a separate component, and is +300gp for weapons. That's what the CRB says.

Here's the soul of the contradiction: the CRB says "you add the masterwork component after everything else".

The FAQ says "you apply the multiplier after everything else".

Those two are inconsistent.


rknop wrote:
Here's the soul of the contradiction: the CRB says "you add the masterwork component after everything else".

Where?

CRB wrote:
The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.

It says you apply the masterwork cost before the crafting multiplier (1/3).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Because the Craft skill itself is running on the assumption that small/medium creatures are using it since those are the sizes of the PC races.

The Masterworking is a separate component from the base cost. The FAQ says you apply the multipliers after everything else.

I'm not seeing an inconsistency.

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder Superscriber

That's for crafting. The FAQ has it for *all* modifiers.

So, by the CRB, a masterwork Large scimitar is 330gp (15gp, x2 for large, +300 for masterwork). By the FAQ, it's 630gp. (15gp, +300 for masterwork, x2 for large).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:
rknop wrote:
Here's the soul of the contradiction: the CRB says "you add the masterwork component after everything else".

Where?

CRB wrote:
The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.
It says you apply the masterwork cost before the crafting multiplier (1/3).

Ah yeah, even better point.

Liberty's Edge

Starfinder Superscriber

See my post just before your post.


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Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

For cold iron, I can see a way to wiggle out of doubling the masterwork price on it. It says (emphasis mine) "Weapons made of cold iron cost twice as much to make as their normal counterparts." If you take "normal" to mean "non-masterwork", then cold iron is telling you to just double the base price before tacking on the +300 gp for masterwork. This would allow the published stat blocks for masterwork cold iron longswords to not be invalid while still allowing the FAQ to coexist (rather than contradict) what is written in aforementioned statblocks.

The FAQ did not state that previously published statblocks are incorrect and will receive errata, so I must operate under the assumption that nothing printed will be changing, and somehow reconcile those published prices with the new FAQ.

Edit: rknop, is the masterwork large scimitar actually statted up in the CRB or a printed supplement? I'm not seeing it with an (admittedly not very thorough) search. If that does exist, it would directly contradict the FAQ.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
rknop wrote:

That's for crafting. The FAQ has it for *all* modifiers.

So, by the CRB, a masterwork Large scimitar is 330gp (15gp, x2 for large, +300 for masterwork). By the FAQ, it's 630gp. (15gp, +300 for masterwork, x2 for large).

That's if you're going off the assumption that Masterworking and special materials are factored in after the cost of sizing. I (and the FAQ) don't go by that.

Grand Lodge

@skizzerz That's definitely a potentially valid viewpoint. But it's vague enough to be open to table variation, which makes this FAQ clarify even less for cold iron.


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
@skizzerz That's definitely a potentially valid viewpoint. But now it's open to table variation, which makes this FAQ clarify even less helpful for cold iron.

I completely agree; additional clarification would be welcome. While I can make rulings for my own table, I shouldn't need to now that we have an FAQ on the topic.

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder Superscriber
Rysky wrote:
rknop wrote:

That's for crafting. The FAQ has it for *all* modifiers.

So, by the CRB, a masterwork Large scimitar is 330gp (15gp, x2 for large, +300 for masterwork). By the FAQ, it's 630gp. (15gp, +300 for masterwork, x2 for large).

That's if you're going off the assumption that Masterworking and special materials are factored in after the cost of sizing. I (and the FAQ) don't go by that.

...but the CRB *does*.

Examples: page 399-400, "...a typical masterwork cold iron scimitar worth the base price of 330 gp."

Page 474, a masterwork cold-iron longsword is listed as 330gp.

Page 154, "Weapons made of cold iron cost twice as much to make as their normal counterparts (not counting masterwork costs)."

Page 434, "Some siege engines are armored as well. Treat the siege engine as a Huge creature to determine the cost of such armor. Siege engines can be crafted as masterwork and enchanted as magic weapons, adding bonuses on attack rolls to the checks made to hit with the siege engine. A masterwork siege engine costs 300 gp more than the listed price. Enchanting a siege engine costs twice the normal amount. For example, a +1 flaming heavy catapult, armored with full plate, would have an AC of 11 and would cost 23,100 gp (800 gp base + 6,000 gp for the armor + 300 gp masterwork + 16,000 gp for the enhancements).

Grand Lodge

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Huh, yet another contradiction to the FAQ.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Pretty sure the Cold Iron is an outlier that was overlooked, though Skizzerz does point out it specifies normal counterparts.

will have to look over the Siege Engine rules but that's a whole other can of worms since it's apparently 3 things in 1 (armor, weapon, siege engine).


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Rysky wrote:
rknop wrote:

That's for crafting. The FAQ has it for *all* modifiers.

So, by the CRB, a masterwork Large scimitar is 330gp (15gp, x2 for large, +300 for masterwork). By the FAQ, it's 630gp. (15gp, +300 for masterwork, x2 for large).

That's if you're going off the assumption that Masterworking and special materials are factored in after the cost of sizing. I (and the FAQ) don't go by that.

CRB disagrees: masterwork cold iron scimitar

Weapon Master's Handbook disagrees: Crusader's Longsword
Ultimate Equipment disagrees: Demonsorrow Curve Blade
The Moonscar disagrees : Iron Lash

Seems like a CLEAR pattern of masterwork being added after...

Liberty's Edge

Starfinder Superscriber

Rysky, it has nothing to do with siege engines. It has exactly to do with we're talking about. That's why I bolded the "Treat the siege engine as a Huge creature to determine the cost of such armor." The CRB is saying you add Masterwork *after* multipliers for size for figuring out the cost of armor for a Huge creature.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
rknop wrote:
Rysky, it has nothing to do with siege engines. It has exactly to do with we're talking about. That's why I bolded the "Treat the siege engine as a Huge creature to determine the cost of such armor." The CRB is saying you add Masterwork *after* multipliers for size for figuring out the cost of armor for a Huge creature.

Uh, you brought up Siege Engines though.

The Siege Engine rules also got updated way back in Ultimate Combat and work differently than those in the CRB.

Liberty's Edge

Starfinder Superscriber
Rysky wrote:
rknop wrote:
Rysky, it has nothing to do with siege engines. It has exactly to do with we're talking about. That's why I bolded the "Treat the siege engine as a Huge creature to determine the cost of such armor." The CRB is saying you add Masterwork *after* multipliers for size for figuring out the cost of armor for a Huge creature.
Uh, you brought up Siege Engines though.

So? So what? I only brought up siege engines because that's where the text I was quoting was.

The text was giving an example for how you price armor for a Huge creature. That is the whole point. Sure, it showed up in the section about siege engine, but that's just where it was. The point is what the text says. The text says, "Armor this like a Huge creature", then gives an example for the cost.

So, it's the CRB talking about armor for a Huge creature. This is the relevance.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
graystone wrote:
Rysky wrote:
rknop wrote:

That's for crafting. The FAQ has it for *all* modifiers.

So, by the CRB, a masterwork Large scimitar is 330gp (15gp, x2 for large, +300 for masterwork). By the FAQ, it's 630gp. (15gp, +300 for masterwork, x2 for large).

That's if you're going off the assumption that Masterworking and special materials are factored in after the cost of sizing. I (and the FAQ) don't go by that.

CRB disagrees: masterwork cold iron scimitar

Weapon Master's Handbook disagrees: Crusader's Longsword
Ultimate Equipment disagrees: Demonsorrow Curve Blade
The Moonscar disagrees : Iron Lash

Seems like a CLEAR pattern of masterwork being added after...

Can't look up Iron Lash but I'm guessing it's Cold Iron?

As I've been saying Cold Iron is the outlier, either going off the part Skizzerz pointed out or that the DT forgot that CI is priced by doubling the cost, and it works fine going Base + Special Material + Masterwork X Size

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
rknop wrote:
Rysky wrote:
rknop wrote:
Rysky, it has nothing to do with siege engines. It has exactly to do with we're talking about. That's why I bolded the "Treat the siege engine as a Huge creature to determine the cost of such armor." The CRB is saying you add Masterwork *after* multipliers for size for figuring out the cost of armor for a Huge creature.
Uh, you brought up Siege Engines though.

So? So what? I only brought up siege engines because that's where the text I was quoting was.

The text was giving an example for how you price armor for a Huge creature. That is the whole point. Sure, it showed up in the section about siege engine, but that's just where it was. The point is what the text says. The text says, "Armor this like a Huge creature", then gives an example for the cost.

So, it's the CRB talking about armor for a Huge creature. This is the relevance.

It's talking about the cost of an all in one creature, armor, weapon that only pays 1 masterwork cost for the Siege Engine, not the Armor, which isn't masterworked. The rules were already weird with it.

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder Superscriber

Ultimate Equipment, page 114:

Ultimate Equipment wrote:


ARMOR FOR UNUSUAL CREATURES: The cost of armor for
non-humanoid creatures, as well as for creatures who are
neither Small nor Medium, varies (see page 15). The cost
of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement
remains the same.


rknop wrote:

Ultimate Equipment, page 114:

Ultimate Equipment wrote:


ARMOR FOR UNUSUAL CREATURES: The cost of armor for
non-humanoid creatures, as well as for creatures who are
neither Small nor Medium, varies (see page 15). The cost
of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement
remains the same.

NOW we're getting some contradictions.


Rysky wrote:
graystone wrote:
Rysky wrote:
rknop wrote:

That's for crafting. The FAQ has it for *all* modifiers.

So, by the CRB, a masterwork Large scimitar is 330gp (15gp, x2 for large, +300 for masterwork). By the FAQ, it's 630gp. (15gp, +300 for masterwork, x2 for large).

That's if you're going off the assumption that Masterworking and special materials are factored in after the cost of sizing. I (and the FAQ) don't go by that.

CRB disagrees: masterwork cold iron scimitar

Weapon Master's Handbook disagrees: Crusader's Longsword
Ultimate Equipment disagrees: Demonsorrow Curve Blade
The Moonscar disagrees : Iron Lash

Seems like a CLEAR pattern of masterwork being added after...

Can't look up Iron Lash but I'm guessing it's Cold Iron?

As I've been saying Cold Iron is the outlier, either going off the part Skizzerz pointed out or that the DT forgot that CI is priced by doubling the cost, and it works fine going Base + Special Material + Masterwork X Size

Cool...

Then we have adamantine weapons...
The Midnight Isles: Blancher large adamantine weapon NOT priced for large adamantine.
Classic Treasures: Jorngarl's Harm no x2 adamantine cost for large.

There aren't many large adamantine weapons but every one figures out the price different than the FAQ. Secondly, Iron Lord's Transforming Slivers exist too... for the low, low cost of 1000gp, you change the size up or down 1 size. All it takes then is 1000gp and the enlarge person spell... Who's going to pay an extra 3000gp when a 1000gp item does the trick?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
rknop wrote:

Ultimate Equipment, page 114:

Ultimate Equipment wrote:


ARMOR FOR UNUSUAL CREATURES: The cost of armor for
non-humanoid creatures, as well as for creatures who are
neither Small nor Medium, varies (see page 15). The cost
of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement
remains the same.

Ah, now you found something that actually contradicts the FAQ. Now to see if the Devs speak out on it or not (UE did get hit with a heavy errata before).

Liberty's Edge

Starfinder Superscriber

Um:

rknop wrote:


Examples: page 399-400, "...a typical masterwork cold iron scimitar worth the base price of 330 gp."

Page 474, a masterwork cold-iron longsword is listed as 330gp.

Page 154, "Weapons made of cold iron cost twice as much to make as their normal counterparts (not counting masterwork costs)."

You want to say cold iron is an "outlier", but whatever name you give it, those are still contradictions.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
rknop wrote:

Um:

rknop wrote:


Examples: page 399-400, "...a typical masterwork cold iron scimitar worth the base price of 330 gp."

Page 474, a masterwork cold-iron longsword is listed as 330gp.

Page 154, "Weapons made of cold iron cost twice as much to make as their normal counterparts (not counting masterwork costs)."

You want to say cold iron is an "outlier", but whatever name you give it, those are still contradictions.

Not really, and I've already stated as such.

Either it's as Skizzerz pointed out or the Dev's forgot that Cold Iron's pricing works on a multiplier.

Grand Lodge

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@rknop Well before the mwk quote Cold Iron was the only one we'd seen. Now it's not just a single outlier, but one of multiple examples of the FAQ contradicting the rules.

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