[PFS] Does Unchained Barbarian rage apply to alchemist bombs?


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I want to play a drunken brewmaster that's an alchemist who dips 1 level for rage, and I'm trying to decide whether to dip into core barbarian, unchained barbarian, or bloodrager. But I noticed that unchained barbarian rage applies a +2 bonus to thrown weapon damage rolls. Would this work on alchemist bombs?

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Is an alchemist bomb a thrown weapon?


A bomb is clearly called out as a Thrown Splash Weapon. I'm not sure if that answers your question though.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
A bomb is clearly called out as a Thrown Splash Weapon. I'm not sure if that answers your question though.

Not quite. Well, bombs are weapons and you throw them. So they're thrown weapons? Just thrown weapons that do 1d6+Int rather than a weapon damage die + Str.


The class feature Bomb declares that bombs are weapons and follow the rules for Thrown Splash Weapons.


Splash weapons don't normally add STR to my knowledge.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
unforgivn wrote:
Splash weapons don't normally add STR to my knowledge.

Indeed not, but the Unchained Barbarian doesn't get a bonus to strength, but a bonus to 'melee attack and damage rolls, thrown weapon damage rolls, and Will saves.'

RAI is obviously no, but RAW? Just maybe so.

Shadow Lodge

It seems close enough to the main core rules.

CRB wrote:
When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result.

Characters never before employed their Strength modifier to thrown alchemist fires, so I wouldn't expect the UC barbarian to get this damage bonus.

It does seem like they should've probably put an "including a sling" phrase though in the unchained barbarian damage bonus though. Woe to slinger barbarians!


The untyped bonuses of the new rage are possibly going to be problematic in getting clear ruling on where they apply.


The damage of the bomb has never added the bonus from rage before. The barbarian was cleaned up to make the math simpler, rather than the player adjusting the sheet himself.

There is, by obvious RAI, no way it would and I would hazard that due to repeated mentions that the new rage was only done to give quicker and less complicated math on what rage would change the RAW is pretty clear too.

It wouldn't.


Splash weapons don't add damage modifiers. Unless an ability specifically contradicts this (i.e. the alchemist's bombs ability) it does not affect splash weapon damage.


Link to possibly relevant FAQ
The bonus damage from point blank shot applies to the damage of a direct hit from an alchemist's bomb, but not the splash damage. Seems like the same might apply for the bonus damage from rage.

Just because the rage damage used to come from strength doesn't mean it still has to. The bonus damage now applies when using dex-to-damage and such as well; it doesn't have to be strength-based attacks.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ziere Tole wrote:

Link to possibly relevant FAQ

The bonus damage from point blank shot applies to the damage of a direct hit from an alchemist's bomb, but not the splash damage. Seems like the same might apply for the bonus damage from rage.

Just because the rage damage used to come from strength doesn't mean it still has to. The bonus damage now applies when using dex-to-damage and such as well; it doesn't have to be strength-based attacks.

Seems like solid precedent, and I would be hard-pressed to call the combo "game-breaking."


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By RAW? Yes, it applies.

By RAI? Ask your GM. I personally think the image of pitching a bottle of explosive chemicals really hard while raging is kind of awesome.

Though, frankly, since you mix the bombs as you throw them, some GMs might not even let you do that while raging (I would, but some might not).


Doesn't the use of the rage ability preclude the ability to safely mix/assemble the bomb?

After all that is obviously a task based on INT.


Unlike extracts, there are no INT requirements to mix up a bomb.


The save DC of the bomb is INT based, is it not?

The number of bombs usable per day is INT based, is it not?

The bombs additional damage (the plus after the dice) is determined by the INT score of the thrower, is it not?

Bombs are, quite obviously, a class ability that uses concentration.

The rage class ability precludes the use of "any ability that requires patience and concentration".

Edit: Ninja'd by Cavall


I like how mixing two chemicals together that explode don't need concentration either.


Witch hexes are based on int, too. But they can be used while raging. Too many people think rage turns you into some mindless beast.


Weslocke wrote:

The save DC of the bomb is INT based, is it not?

The number of bombs usable per day is INT based, is it not?

The bombs additional damage (the plus after the dice) is determined by the INT score of the thrower, is it not?

Bombs are, quite obviously, a class ability that uses concentration.

The rage class ability precludes the use of "any ability that requires patience and concentration".

Edit: Ninja'd by Cavall

Ninja'd just means you're both wrong.

You're free to house rule it as you like, but your bomb mixing/throwing isn't disrupted if you take or are taking damage, you don't need to make a concentration check.

Nor does the ability have a threshold INT score as a prerequisite.


I've seen and usually had people play that bombs and splash weapons get str to damage, On the target only. Not the splash at all.
no clue if right or not. but it hardly caused issues


Or one could just look at the rules:

Quote:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, and nets are examples of thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).


Oh but nooooooo!

Looking it up is for suckers


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:

Or one could just look at the rules:

Quote:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, and nets are examples of thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).

Again--Unchained Barbarian bonus damage has nothing to do with Strength. As written, it's an bonus to damage with any and all thrown weapons.


Throw splash weapons is not the same as throwing a ranged weapon. It's listed separately in the combat section and applies different criteria, like it's a ranged touch attack and doesn't apply precision damage.

Unless barbarian rage says to apply the bonus to thrown splash weapons, it doesn't apply to thrown splash weapons.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:

Throw splash weapons is not the same as throwing a ranged weapon. It's listed separately in the combat section and applies different criteria, like it's a ranged touch attack and doesn't apply precision damage.

Unless barbarian rage says to apply the bonus to thrown splash weapons, it doesn't apply to thrown splash weapons.

The rules don't say that, man. "Doesn't apply Strength damage" has nothing to do with a damage add that isn't Strength based. Moreover, how can you square your position with the FAQ that says Point Blank Shot does apply? What distinguishes PBS' damage bonus from the rage bonus?

Silver Crusade

Ozy, the quote that you made up thread makes it clear that splash weapons are considered thrown weapons; if they are thrown weapons then yes, they do get the damage bonus. Which is just weird.


wakedown wrote:

It seems close enough to the main core rules.

CRB wrote:
When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result.

Characters never before employed their Strength modifier to thrown alchemist fires, so I wouldn't expect the UC barbarian to get this damage bonus.

It does seem like they should've probably put an "including a sling" phrase though in the unchained barbarian damage bonus though. Woe to slinger barbarians!

I'm pretty sure Paizo has forgotten that ranged weapons other than the longbow exist, and that some people actually want to use them.

On the main topic, a thrown splash weapon is a thrown weapon. The Unchained Barbarian rage boosts all thrown weapons (no exceptions listed). Per RAW, that means it boosts thrown splash weapons too.


Shisumo wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Throw splash weapons is not the same as throwing a ranged weapon. It's listed separately in the combat section and applies different criteria, like it's a ranged touch attack and doesn't apply precision damage.

Unless barbarian rage says to apply the bonus to thrown splash weapons, it doesn't apply to thrown splash weapons.

The rules don't say that, man. "Doesn't apply Strength damage" has nothing to do with a damage add that isn't Strength based. Moreover, how can you square your position with the FAQ that says Point Blank Shot does apply? What distinguishes PBS' damage bonus from the rage bonus?

The difference is that, in general, thrown weapons are treated differently than throwing a splash weapon. Different ACs to hit, different proficiency requirements, differences in applying precision damage, differences in action economy (you can't quickdraw a splash weapon, full round action to prepare).

PBS applies because it applies to all weapon-like attacks that use an attack roll. Would you allow the rage bonus to stack with a ranged spell attack? PBS applies...


_Ozy_ wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Throw splash weapons is not the same as throwing a ranged weapon. It's listed separately in the combat section and applies different criteria, like it's a ranged touch attack and doesn't apply precision damage.

Unless barbarian rage says to apply the bonus to thrown splash weapons, it doesn't apply to thrown splash weapons.

The rules don't say that, man. "Doesn't apply Strength damage" has nothing to do with a damage add that isn't Strength based. Moreover, how can you square your position with the FAQ that says Point Blank Shot does apply? What distinguishes PBS' damage bonus from the rage bonus?

The difference is that, in general, thrown weapons are treated differently than throwing a splash weapon. Different ACs to hit, different proficiency requirements, differences in applying precision damage, differences in action economy (you can't quickdraw a splash weapon, full round action to prepare).

PBS applies because it applies to all weapon-like attacks that use an attack roll. Would you allow the rage bonus to stack with a ranged spell attack? PBS applies...

Show me a spell that qualifies as a thrown weapon and then I will.

Grand Lodge

_Ozy_ wrote:
(you can't quickdraw a splash weapon, full round action to prepare).

I'd like to point out that the "full round action to prepare" applies exclusively to rigging a vial of oil to act as a splash weapon. No extra action is needed before throwing, say, an Alchemist's Fire.


Correct, though you still can't quickdraw them.


Well.... fast bombs...


Deadkitten wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
The rules don't say that, man. "Doesn't apply Strength damage" has nothing to do with a damage add that isn't Strength based. Moreover, how can you square your position with the FAQ that says Point Blank Shot does apply? What distinguishes PBS' damage bonus from the rage bonus?

The difference is that, in general, thrown weapons are treated differently than throwing a splash weapon. Different ACs to hit, different proficiency requirements, differences in applying precision damage, differences in action economy (you can't quickdraw a splash weapon, full round action to prepare).

PBS applies because it applies to all weapon-like attacks that use an attack roll. Would you allow the rage bonus to stack with a ranged spell attack? PBS applies...

Show me a spell that qualifies as a thrown weapon and then I will.

? What? We're talking about justifying applying rage damage based on the fact that you apply PBS damage to splash weapons (see bolded section). The argument was made that since you apply PBS to both thrown weapons and splash weapons, that you would apply rage damage to both as well.

That was the logical argument that was presented, to which I responded by brining up PBS on spells. If you want to argue something else, be my guest.

Liberty's Edge

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Unchained Rage usually doesn't work on spells because a) you can't usually cast a spell while raging and b)most spells don't count as thrown weapons. A multiclassed barbarian could however cast produce flame then proceed to rage and throw fire as a thrown weapon (specifically called out in the spell description as a thrown weapon) and then apply their +2 to damage with the thrown flame. It doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense, but according to the wording of the new Rage it 100% A-okay.


For the sake of argument, let us assume that the barbarian has indeed found a way to cast a spell, maybe he has a magic item that lets him do it. Let's say it's acid splash.

Acid splash gets PBS damage.

Does it get rage damage?

That is the argument I was responding to, the claim (in bold in my previous reply above) that since PBS applied to both thrown weapons and splash damage that they were considered the same for rage damage. This argument was advanced by Shishumo, and started the chain you responded to.


Cavall wrote:
I like how mixing two chemicals together that explode don't need concentration either.

I generally assume that Alchemist bombs are pre-mixed, and when you throw them you pop the cap (exposing the contents to air is what makes it volatile).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Throw splash weapons is not the same as throwing a ranged weapon. It's listed separately in the combat section and applies different criteria, like it's a ranged touch attack and doesn't apply precision damage.

Unless barbarian rage says to apply the bonus to thrown splash weapons, it doesn't apply to thrown splash weapons.

The rules don't say that, man. "Doesn't apply Strength damage" has nothing to do with a damage add that isn't Strength based. Moreover, how can you square your position with the FAQ that says Point Blank Shot does apply? What distinguishes PBS' damage bonus from the rage bonus?
The difference is that, in general, thrown weapons are treated differently than throwing a splash weapon. Different ACs to hit, different proficiency requirements, differences in applying precision damage, differences in action economy (you can't quickdraw a splash weapon, full round action to prepare).

None of those differences make it not a thrown weapon, though. Splash weapons do have special rules, but you've just listed all the differences - and none of them say it's not a thrown weapon, because, well, it is. You're trying to argue that having special rules somehow makes them different, but that's like saying that crossbows are somehow different from other kinds of ranged attacks simply because they have special rules for reloading. As long as you aren't talking about anything that changes how the rules apply, then they apply the same way across all cases.

_Ozy_ wrote:

For the sake of argument, let us assume that the barbarian has indeed found a way to cast a spell, maybe he has a magic item that lets him do it. Let's say it's acid splash.

Acid splash gets PBS damage.

Does it get rage damage?

No, because acid splash is not a thrown weapon. Bombs are, though, so I'm still not seeing a meaningful distinction.

Sovereign Court

I'm not convinced that splash damage counts as "weapon damage".

It could be understood as an effect that causes damage, which if you want to get all RAW about it, is not the same thing.

I'm also finding the wrinkle about raging and bombing to be very intriguing. Unless the Unchained Barbarian rage changes the wording of "cannot use any ability that requires patience or concentration", then I think there's enough justification on that alone for a PFS GM to put a nix on the entire concept. Who is it up to to say whether using the Bomb ability requires "patience or concentration"? Why, it's the GM. And not the player who's character possesses said ability.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
deusvult wrote:

I'm not convinced that splash damage counts as "weapon damage".

It could be understood as an effect that causes damage, which if you want to get all RAW about it, is not the same thing.

That's why Point Blank Shot is relevant. The FAQ says PBS applies to alchemist bombs, and PBS' text says it affects "attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons." If it's a weapon for PBS, it pretty much has to be a weapon for rage. (Note that I am not talking about splash damage, just direct damage on a hit - that's the distinction that the FAQ makes, so it should also apply to rage.)

deusvult wrote:
I'm also finding the wrinkle about raging and bombing to be very intriguing. Unless the Unchained Barbarian rage changes the wording of "cannot use any ability that requires patience or concentration", then I think there's enough justification on that alone for a PFS GM to put a nix on the entire concept. Who is it up to to say whether using the Bomb ability requires "patience or concentration"? Why, it's the GM. And not the player who's character possesses said ability.

...if you start with the assumption that "nixing the ability" is the desired outcome, sure.

Sovereign Court

Shisumo wrote:


...if you start with the assumption that "nixing the ability" is the desired outcome, sure.

You appear to imply that's a bad thing.


Shisumo wrote:
None of those differences make it not a thrown weapon, though. Splash weapons do have special rules, but you've just listed all the differences - and none of them say it's not a thrown weapon, because, well, it is. You're trying to argue that having special rules somehow makes them different, but that's like saying that crossbows are somehow different from other kinds of ranged attacks simply because they have special rules for reloading. As long as you aren't talking about anything that changes how the rules apply, then they apply the same way across all cases.

What weapon table are splash weapons listed under? Simple? Martial? Exotic? Can I get a large-sized, or small-sized splash weapon? Do I take penalties for throwing a splash weapon of the wrong size?

_Ozy_ wrote:

For the sake of argument, let us assume that the barbarian has indeed found a way to cast a spell, maybe he has a magic item that lets him do it. Let's say it's acid splash.

Acid splash gets PBS damage.

Does it get rage damage?

No, because acid splash is not a thrown weapon. Bombs are, though, so I'm still not seeing a meaningful distinction.

Well then why the hell did you argue that splash weapons are thrown weapons because you can apply PBS damage to them? This was your quote:

Quote:
Moreover, how can you square your position with the FAQ that says Point Blank Shot does apply? What distinguishes PBS' damage bonus from the rage bonus?

The FAQ says PBS applies to acid splash, what distinguishes PBS' damage bonus from the rage bonus for acid splash? Not a thrown weapon, eh? Yeah, neither are splash weapons.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:
The FAQ says PBS applies to acid splash,

The FAQ says PBS applies to splash weapons. Whether it applies to acid splash is irrelevant, because the FAQ is way more specific than that.

_Ozy_ wrote:
what distinguishes PBS' damage bonus from the rage bonus for acid splash? Not a thrown weapon, eh? Yeah, neither are splash weapons.

Splash weapons are ranged weapons that are thrown.

I'm going to need some pretty explicit language to make me believe that doesn't add up to them being thrown weapons.


Sure, all you have to do is locate them on the ranged weapons charts: simple, exotic, or martial.

Have at it.

Edited to add:

Bows are wielded with two hands, that doesn't make them two-handed weapons. Categories are different than descriptions.


Furthermore:

Quote:
Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

What 'size category' are alchemist's fire, medium? Do small creatures like gnomes and halflings take a -2 penalty for throwing normal sized flasks? Do splash weapons follow the size progression chart for damage?

Could my alchemist tote around Huge flasks of alchemist fire, take a -4 penalty on the ranged touch attack (big whoop) and do 2d6+int for each attack?

Thrown weapons have sizes, according to the rules. If splash weapons don't have 'sizes', then they are not thrown weapons. In fact, they aren't part of the 'weapon' category at all.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

From the PRD:

Quote:
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects.

Can we move on yet?


Nope, because 'thrown weapon' is different specific category than 'splash weapon' even if they are both thrown, just like a bow is not a 'two handed weapon' even though both require two hands to use.

That's why thrown weapons show up on the weapons tables as simple, martial, or exotic. And splash weapons do not. Nor do they have a size category, whereas thrown weapons do.

So yes, we can indeed move on as long as you no longer claim that splash and thrown weapons are the same things.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Utterly irrelevant. The PRD says explicitly that splash weapons are ranged weapons. That's the simple fact. Whether or not they show up on the tables, they are ranged weapons, which makes them weapons as well. Since they are weapons, specifically ranged ones, that are thrown, they are thrown weapons. That's just all there is to it.

You're making up rules, my friend. It's poor practice in a PFS discussion.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Nope, because 'thrown weapon' is different specific category than 'splash weapon' even if they are both thrown, just like a bow is not a 'two handed weapon' even though both require two hands to use.

That's why thrown weapons show up on the weapons tables as simple, martial, or exotic. And splash weapons do not. Nor do they have a size category, whereas thrown weapons do.

So yes, we can indeed move on as long as you no longer claim that splash and thrown weapons are the same things.

You know, I've looked a bit, but I don't see a table called "Thrown Weapons". None of the tables even have a "Thrown" column with a Yes/No on which weapons are thrown or not. Apparently since a table for the category doesn't exist, thrown weapons do not exist in the game...

The main wording on which weapons are thrown weapons I can find is this one:

PRD wrote:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons.

No mention of splash weapons. These are the only throwing weapons I guess, so too bad for kunai, starknife, harpoon, etc. wielders that wanted to throw their weapons using the listed range increments for them...

Also interesting, the next sentence is this one:

PRD wrote:
The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).

Now, why would they call out splash weapons as an exception if the Thrown Weapon section doesn't apply to them in the first place? Seems odd to make an exception for something that still wouldn't be the case without the exception. I guess those silly developers decided to just throw in some words that have no contextual meaning to them...

Seriously though, I've seen the idea thrown around before that something has to be on a table to be called a weapon. Where is the rule for this? I'd like to see an explicit quote.


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Sometimes I hate this site. So much. This is one of those times.

If it helps, I'm moving on. To a different thread. The concept that splash weapons that are thrown aren't somehow thrown weapons that splash has made me very upset.

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