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Of late, I've been noticing a lot of people using "save or suck" in a manner I'm not used to.
See, how I understood it, "Save or suck" was a term inspired by "save or die" to refer to an effect that is effectively "save or die" but not technically. Sleep, color spray, a mind flayer's mind blast—stunning, paralyzing, dazing or sleeping effects generally fell under the umbrella.
It was a useful term. Some effects might as well be "save or die", but "save or suck" was more precise and clear. You make a save. If you fail, you aren't dead, but you are screwed.
The thing is, I think the term was too generic. I've been noticing a lot of people lately using "save or suck" to just mean "save or you suck". So, bestow curse, blindness/deafness, doom, ray of enfeeblement, slow...it's being used to just mean exactly what it sounds like.
Sadly, this deprives us of a good way to describe that middle-ground between "dead" and "kinda irritating". What do we say now? "Save or sigh"? I guess that would accurately describe my players' reactions to a mind blast, but it doesn't have quite the same ring to it. :P
So, did I have the wrong definition all along, or is this a new trend?
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I heard "save or suck" in 3.0 days. It's always meant things like blindness or curses, from my understanding: things that are permanent debuffs unless a save is made.
It has always been a scale from multiple rounds of no actions on down to you got dazzled. I think some people have been using the term a little more loosely as time passes. I wouldn't count doom or ray of enfeeblement but slow on a 12 headed hydra or blindness/deafness to blind someone who is flying at altitude counts in my book.
I'd put things that apply stun/paralysis or generally make you vulnerable to coup de grace to be "save or die". While effects with powerful debuffs are "save or suck".
I think the term got more use when Paizo converted many abilities that were save or die into things that were save or be greatly inconvenienced.
However, being slowed or cursed still sucks pretty hard. Even if it isn't just a tick on the other side of being dead.
Honestly, I've continued to describe anything that was just the other side of death (likely to end in death or removing you from the rest of that combat) as a Save or Die anyways. Because you might as well be dead.
Ah, I might've been thinking of "safe or lose".
Save or Die = You're dead or may as well be (petrified falls here imho).
Save or Lose = Sleep, Dazed, total lock down for 1 or more rounds.
Save or Suck = Staggered or non-minor debuffs.
That's how I would go, but I usually just pick one semi-arbitrarily.
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As opposed to entanglement effects, which are save-or-stuck.
I would define Save-or-Suck as something that causes you to lose the ability to take effective standard actions.
Blindness, nausea, etc.
I would lump things that put you to sleep, paralyze, and petrify adjacent to Save-or-die, since you are either super easy to kill, or require powerful magic to return to play.
Domination is kind of its own category, as it can be far worse then death, although it can also be stopped by a first level spell in most cases.
Or worse. The just "suck it" spells. Like a maximized enervation. Followed by a quickened enervation.
Or worse. The just "suck it" spells. Like a maximized enervation. Followed by a quickened enervation.That is the equivalent of casting a level 7 and 8 spell at a single target. That target should suck it. Lowering a CR 15 creature by 5-9 levels is no doubt nasty, but pales in comparison to most combinations of level 7-8 spells.
Eh, yes and no. When you really need to say "f&$& this guy in particular" that pretty much does it. You can also use a rod of quicken or maximize to lower the spell level cost, so that it's viable earlier. Also, it has the side effect of almost no chance of being resisted with the exception of undead and those who may being using Death Ward.
Of late, I've been noticing a lot of people using "save or suck" in a manner I'm not used to.
See, how I understood it, "Save or suck" was a term inspired by "save or die" to refer to an effect that is effectively "save or die" but not technically. Sleep, color spray, a mind flayer's mind blast—stunning, paralyzing, dazing or sleeping effects generally fell under the umbrella.
It was a useful term. Some effects might as well be "save or die", but "save or suck" was more precise and clear. You make a save. If you fail, you aren't dead, but you are screwed.
The thing is, I think the term was too generic. I've been noticing a lot of people lately using "save or suck" to just mean "save or you suck". So, bestow curse, blindness/deafness, doom, ray of enfeeblement, slow...it's being used to just mean exactly what it sounds like.
Sadly, this deprives us of a good way to describe that middle-ground between "dead" and "kinda irritating". What do we say now? "Save or sigh"? I guess that would accurately describe my players' reactions to a mind blast, but it doesn't have quite the same ring to it. :P
So, did I have the wrong definition all along, or is this a new trend?
it's more along the lines to me, you either cast the spell and do something useful or they save and you wasted your turn. very boring unless you maximize it to all hell to get maximum chance to get the spell off.
All this stands opposed to no-save or suck spells, like Fly.
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a lot of wizards' nastiest spells usually require either a party member or a summoned monster to actually finish the target off (the bigger control spells--pits/clouds/rays of prismatic light), which is fine--it promotes SOME sort of co-dependency/teamwork until the wizard gets simulacrums or summon monster down to a standard action.
when it gets to the point that the wizard can come in and go 'aaaand you're dead and youre dead and youre REALLY dead' without any aid or cooperation with the party (while invisible and able to teleport out instantly if things somehow get bad) or even effort on his part--he just lists off what spells he's using and on whom and marks the spells cast off on his sheet. it falls to the monsters to either roll well or keel over--that it becomes an issue for me (because this is a team game and everyone should have a chance to contribute).
thankfully most of that is solved by asking 'hey, could dial it back a bit?' to the wizard player who's a reasonable guy and swapping to the Active Casting alternate rule.
Yeah, save the save-or-die spells for the NPCs. :D
As opposed to entanglement effects, which are save-or-stuck.
would plane shift be a 'save-or-oh f@%&' ?
I always thought "save or suck" applied exclusively to the unnatural lust spell... :)
Nah, not everyone has something to suck.
I always thought "save or suck" applied exclusively to the unnatural lust spell... :)Nah, not everyone has something to suck.Everyone has something.
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What, we all have fingers, what did you think I meant?
Well if that's what you're into.
"Save or puck" is a popular term in Canada for the duties of the goalkeeper.
Well if that's what you're into.I'm pretty sure Unnatural Lust can make you be into it...that spell is actually super creepy.
Which is probably why the devs made it last 6 seconds and no more.
Which is probably why the devs made it last 6 seconds and no more.Well if that's what you're into.I'm pretty sure Unnatural Lust can make you be into it...that spell is actually super creepy.
And then decided Headband of Seduction was a good idea.
Although I guess by the time you can afford that you should have access to dominate person anyway, so despite it's purpose clearly being orientated towards...unseemly thing, there are far better options available if you are into that sort of thing...you monster.
EDIT:Philter of Love is pretty messed up too. It's also reasonably cheap given how powerful it is (no save permanent super charm person with "benefits").
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While I understand how unfair it is, I feel every player should at least once experience the glory of being an Oprah of Death, the caster that strides like a diva into the battlefield and goes "YOU GET TO DIE! AND YOU GET TO DIE! AND YOU GET TO DIE! EVERYONE GETS TO DIE!" with a bombastic delivery and to the mirthful applause of a studio audience.
One distinction between Save or Die and Save or Lose that I feel is important is that it's possible to rescue a character that fails a Save or Lose effect.
If you fail a paralysis save / get hit by Hold Person, there's Remove Paralysis.
If you fail versus Slumber, someone can kick you.
If you fail vs Dominate Person, someone can attempt to hit you with Protection from Evil.
If you fail vs Blindness / Deafness or accidentally look at a nymph, there's Remove Blindness/Deafness.IMO, these are all low-cost solutions.
The same can't really be said if you fail a save against Circle of Death. Also, Breath of Life doesn't work vs Death Effects.
I wouldn't say low cost. All of these cost actions, and usually cost more actions and possibly AoO's getting in position. Also Remove Blindness/Deafness is one of the things that really gets me about the game. It's not available on the lists of druidic/nature casters. If you try and run them as your primary healer they can handle most things. But one second level spell and they need to reach for the items. Or run home.