[Unchained] Signature Skill unlocks


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Just got my copy of unchained and have begun to read it through.

But the signature skill stopped me, is it just me or are they very underwhelming? I mean sure the rank 15 and 20 are good but very few games reach lvls 15-20.

Was just wondering if anyone else thought the unlocks should be something like 3,6,9,12 or 4,8,12,16 etc.

Any thoughts?


So far, my only thoughts are Skill Unlocks are that I wont be allow bluff or diplomacy unlocks in my game due to the strength of the high level unlocks.

1 round diplomacy is just too much. Virtually any intelligent entity can be convinced to at least not be hostile with the right build and this ability. Which I'm against. Some villains should be so pissed that they're going to try to kill you regardless of what you say. But the rules as presented would allow you to sweet talk them.

Bluff, just literally gives you the ability to use Suggestion against far too many people in a day.

But, I already had lots of problems with the normal version of Bluff and Diplomacy in the first place, so these bonus version really don't surprise me for me not liking them.

I do agree however, that they really aren't useful until you get the 3rd or 4th unlock of the abilities, generally speaking. Though I'm not sure they should be moved up either.


Most of them are not useful, with a couple that are insanely good. This is Paizo standard balance.

The suggestion isn't that useful, it comes in at level 20 lol


They come relevant at very high levels, but some of them are quite good. Stealth 15 is crazy for rogues. Intimidate is pretty nuts as well.


Claxon wrote:

So far, my only thoughts are Skill Unlocks are that I wont be allow bluff or diplomacy unlocks in my game due to the strength of the high level unlocks.

1 round diplomacy is just too much. Virtually any intelligent entity can be convinced to at least not be hostile with the right build and this ability. Which I'm against. Some villains should be so pissed that they're going to try to kill you regardless of what you say. But the rules as presented would allow you to sweet talk them.

Bluff, just literally gives you the ability to use Suggestion against far too many people in a day.

But, I already had lots of problems with the normal version of Bluff and Diplomacy in the first place, so these bonus version really don't surprise me for me not liking them.

I do agree however, that they really aren't useful until you get the 3rd or 4th unlock of the abilities, generally speaking. Though I'm not sure they should be moved up either.

Seems like most of the skill unlocks give too little early on and too "much" later on.

Also I don't see the rank 20 as too much considering what the casters are capable of doing. I mean planes and stoping time etc. I don't consider it too much that someone can change an npc's attitude in 1 round.


Liegence wrote:
They come relevant at very high levels, but some of them are quite good. Stealth 15 is crazy for rogues. Intimidate is pretty nuts as well.

I wouldn't say crazy but it's good at least or great.

Seems like rogue's can make really good debuffers with the intimidate skill unlock combined with certain talents and archetypes.

Just seems to me that Paizo is very careful when it comes to non magic classes and their abilities. Etc. Stuff outside magic.


I'm a bit disappointed that most of them really work to just decrease or remove penalties instead of giving new uses for skills. Perhaps something such as using Sleight of Hand to distract an opponent so you can use it in place of Bluff for feinting. I'm cool with high ranks in skills being able to simulate low level spells even. I can definitely see some getting chosen almost always and others almost never getting chosen.


Sir Dante wrote:
Claxon wrote:

So far, my only thoughts are Skill Unlocks are that I wont be allow bluff or diplomacy unlocks in my game due to the strength of the high level unlocks.

1 round diplomacy is just too much. Virtually any intelligent entity can be convinced to at least not be hostile with the right build and this ability. Which I'm against. Some villains should be so pissed that they're going to try to kill you regardless of what you say. But the rules as presented would allow you to sweet talk them.

Bluff, just literally gives you the ability to use Suggestion against far too many people in a day.

But, I already had lots of problems with the normal version of Bluff and Diplomacy in the first place, so these bonus version really don't surprise me for me not liking them.

I do agree however, that they really aren't useful until you get the 3rd or 4th unlock of the abilities, generally speaking. Though I'm not sure they should be moved up either.

Seems like most of the skill unlocks give too little early on and too "much" later on.

Also I don't see the rank 20 as too much considering what the casters are capable of doing. I mean planes and stoping time etc. I don't consider it too much that someone can change an npc's attitude in 1 round.

It's not that it is too powerful in comparison, but all of those things are too powerful.

The problem with the diplomacy one is that is done come in before 20th level, and reduces any encounters in which the players don't want to fight into a single successful diplomacy roll that as a GM, I pretty much can't avoid. At least before I could start attacking them, and unless they were willing to talk it out for a minute while they got beat down (never happened) it wasn't a tactic you could use to avoid combat with someone who was already hostile with you.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Throw a will save and mind-affecting on the one round diplomacy, then, and it's less broken than a Sorcerer with Dominate Person.

I like the Sense Motive options, personally.


Or I could just not use it at all.

Diplomacy and Bluff are already strong enough as is. These are optional rules, I am of the opinion that this options is not one that should be used.

The reason why I am okay with magic is that it uses up limited daily resources and has a save to negate them. You get a chance to defend yourself.

With Diplomacy there is literally no defense. It's strictly a DC 35 to turn a hostile creature indifferent. There is a thread which illustrates how to achieve a +26 to diplomacy at level 1. Which means unless you're actually in combat, at level 1 you can use diplomacy take 10 and shift someone to at least indifferent.

Bluff isn't much better, since the defense is Sense Motive. A largely unused skill. But the problem is how bluff is worded, and there is too much adjudication needed to not get wonky results.

I already didn't like how normal bluff and diplomacy rules worked. This did not make it better. I'm really considering how I would deal with this sort of stuff as a GM, and these are exactly the sort of things that would just make me incredibly frustrated.


I was underwhelmed at first glance and subsequent glances. I understand why they are the way they are, but if this is a 5th-level class feature (and for rogues, that's what this is), it's not that exciting. At this level a wizard is flying, invisible, hasted, and can open doors with a spell. What's a rogue doing with his stealth skill? Being seen any time there's line of sight.

That's the problem. Rogue picks ONE skill they get bonuses on. Why shouldn't their stealth be able to act as invisibility once per day? Why can't Bluff be Suggestion once per day? That's what I was looking for with these.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

There's an advanced rogue talent that gives you 2 more unlocks (total of 4 at level 10) and if you take signature skill at 12th level for two other skills, the signature skill applies to all 6 skills.

That's 6 skills you can now take 10 with. At level 12. Decent...


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

There's an advanced rogue talent that gives you 2 more unlocks (total of 4 at level 10) and if you take signature skill at 12th level for two other skills, the signature skill applies to all 6 skills.

That's 6 skills you can now take 10 with. At level 12. Decent...

The issue is that long before level 12, skills start being invalidated by magic.

Skill Unlock (Disguise) is especially egregious; the 20th level ability is "can create a disguise as a standard action", which is the same basic effect as a 1st level spell (disguise self) or an 1800 gp item (hat of disguise).

Taking 10 any time is also handy, but suffers from the simple fact that any skill you're heavily invested in (to have enough ranks for Rogue's Edge) is one you're ideally not going to fail on even if you roll poorly. I'd rather a talent that widens the margin of error on a skill than one that covers up a deficiency by removing the random element.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Runelord Apologist wrote:
Skill Unlock (Disguise) is especially egregious; the 20th level ability is "can create a disguise as a standard action", which is the same basic effect as a 1st level spell (disguise self) or an 1800 gp item (hat of disguise).

At 20th level, lots and lots of things have true seeing. Those things will have no special ability whatsoever to see through the rogue's disguise.


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Shisumo wrote:
Runelord Apologist wrote:
Skill Unlock (Disguise) is especially egregious; the 20th level ability is "can create a disguise as a standard action", which is the same basic effect as a 1st level spell (disguise self) or an 1800 gp item (hat of disguise).
At 20th level, lots and lots of things have true seeing. Those things will have no special ability whatsoever to see through the rogue's disguise.

And, at the same levels, lots and lots of people have access to nondetection. Which, coincidentally, the rogue will also need, unless he wants the vast collection of magic items he carries to be spotted by something as basic as detect magic. Divination isn't only an issue to magic users; it will completely invalidate mundane disguises just as quickly if and when it comes into play.


Disguise's 20th level should come in at 10. Its level 15 should be level 5. Similarly, Climb's level 10 should be level 5. A wizard at this level can fly, usually long enough to make most encounters like climbing a cliff completely trivialized. You might argue that "it's a skill check, so you can do it whenever," but I'll argue that it's a 5th level ability (or feat; easily banned for anything but rogues, if that's your thing) that requires investment in a skill, and it's something that can't be gotten very easily. A wand, potion, scroll of fly is easy to get. Really, really easy to get. And anyone with it on their spell list or with UMD can do it.

And if a skill like Diplomacy could get out of hand, it's easy enough to say that a monster in combat won't listen to diplomacy regardless of how fast you do it. Or bluff. Or whatever. I'mma get my homebrew on, harrumph!

Liberty's Edge

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I'm currently planning on giving rogue's an additional Unlock at 1st level, and lowering all level requirements by 5 (to a minimum of 1st level). So, 1, 5, 10, 15. That looks workable to me, and not notably broken as compared to, y'know, spell casting.

Theoretically, I should probably design new capstones at 20, but to be honest I've never played a game that hit 20th level, so it seems less necessary than it might. Also, I like the idea of custom effects of a skill unlock if you ever do reach that level.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'm currently planning on giving rogue's an additional Unlock at 1st level, and lowering all level requirements by 5 (to a minimum of 1st level). So, 1, 5, 10, 15. That looks workable to me, and not notably broken as compared to, y'know, spell casting.

Theoretically, I should probably design new capstones at 20, but to be honest I've never played a game that hit 20th level, so it seems less necessary than it might. Also, I like the idea of custom effects of a skill unlock if you ever do reach that level.

This is what I was thinking too. Rogues don't get all that much at level 1 anyway, outside of SA and skills. Though, Weapon Finesse too, but that's arguably something that should just be part of the game. What turned me off most about the skill system here is, like you pointed out, the cool stuff comes online at level 15-20 for the most part. I've never had a campaign go past level 14, and I usually just skip over things that mention levels higher than 15.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'm currently planning on giving rogue's an additional Unlock at 1st level, and lowering all level requirements by 5 (to a minimum of 1st level). So, 1, 5, 10, 15. That looks workable to me, and not notably broken as compared to, y'know, spell casting.

Theoretically, I should probably design new capstones at 20, but to be honest I've never played a game that hit 20th level, so it seems less necessary than it might. Also, I like the idea of custom effects of a skill unlock if you ever do reach that level.

That sounds interesting. If you get to the top ranks in the skill it gives you time to play around with it getting it at 15 instead of 20. I may try this as well but won't bother with a 20th lvl. version.

So would you give them the class ability at 1st level, or keep it at 5 and give them the two unlocks when they get the ability?

Liberty's Edge

Kage_no_Oukami wrote:

That sounds interesting. If you get to the top ranks in the skill it gives you time to play around with it getting it at 15 instead of 20. I may try this as well but won't bother with a 20th lvl. version.

So would you give them the class ability at 1st level, or keep it at 5 and give them the two unlocks when they get the ability?

I'd give them one instance of Rogue's Edge each at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th. I'd also drop the Feat's prerequisite to one rank in the skill.

It's effectively one extra bonus Feat, but even Unchained Rogues could use a bit of a boost regarding skills.

It does make Rogue a slightly better dip (with two pre-chosen bonus Feats and 1d6 Sneak Attack at 1st, then Evasion and a Talent at 2nd), but no more so than, say, Snakebite Striker Brawler, which gives one less Feat (or, with the two level dip, no Evasion), but a better HD and BAB (and 1d6 unarmed strike damage).


Building something so it isn't a super good dip is kind of silly, especially if it's homebrewed. I get the feeling, but since Pathfinder came out I've had maybe one player even want to multiclass. That might be my experience, but for the most part my players have been pretty sold on one class, or if they have an idea in mind from the get-go archetypes and correct class choice at the beginning usually works best.

Barbarian is also a super sweet level 1 dip, but I never see people doing it. Unchained Rogue with a skill talent at level 1 is no more incredible than rage, fast movement, medium armor, martial weapon, d12... I'm going to add it in for my player this week as well, and see how it goes. Should make him on par with the wizard, bard, slayer, and barbarian that make up the rest of the party.

Liberty's Edge

Puna'chong wrote:
Building something so it isn't a super good dip is kind of silly, especially if it's homebrewed. I get the feeling, but since Pathfinder came out I've had maybe one player even want to multiclass. That might be my experience, but for the most part my players have been pretty sold on one class, or if they have an idea in mind from the get-go archetypes and correct class choice at the beginning usually works best.

That's true to some degree, but less so for non-spellcasters. I've had several non-spellcasters dip to some degree over the years, often quite effectively.

And besides, I did specifically come to the conclusion that it was still not too front-loaded as compared to other classes.

Puna'chong wrote:
Barbarian is also a super sweet level 1 dip, but I never see people doing it. Unchained Rogue with a skill talent at level 1 is no more incredible than rage, fast movement, medium armor, martial weapon, d12... I'm going to add it in for my player this week as well, and see how it goes. Should make him on par with the wizard, bard, slayer, and barbarian that make up the rest of the party.

Rage has the problem of lasting about one combat without further investment. But yeah, Barbarian is really quite good as dips go. But yeah, adding in skill unlocks earlier definitely helps the class out.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
I'm currently planning on giving rogue's an additional Unlock at 1st level, and lowering all level requirements by 5 (to a minimum of 1st level). So, 1, 5, 10, 15. That looks workable to me, and not notably broken as compared to, y'know, spell casting.

I'm planning on giving Rogue skill unlocks early and having them automatically scale per "bump" at 4/7/10/13/16/19. It's their "spells."


rainzax wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
I'm currently planning on giving rogue's an additional Unlock at 1st level, and lowering all level requirements by 5 (to a minimum of 1st level). So, 1, 5, 10, 15. That looks workable to me, and not notably broken as compared to, y'know, spell casting.
I'm planning on giving Rogue skill unlocks early and having them automatically scale per "bump" at 4/7/10/13/16/19. It's their "spells."

Let me know how that works out, if you do go that route. I briefly considered it but moving the levels down a step was a quicker change. I do like the idea. Would you be making new tiers for each skill that way? And would rogues pick one every three levels, get all of them, get a couple? As a 3/4 BAB class, having these scale well and having a good number of them really isn't too much, and I think it's a great way to help the rogue keep on par with everyone else.

Seems fun. It also means that an Investigator could take a skill unlock as a talent, like how a rogue can take ki pool or minor casting, and do a small version of the rogue's skill schtick there.


A 10th level rogue using my tweak could have, say, Disguise at ranks 5/10/15 (chosen at 4th), Bluff at ranks 5/10 (chosen at 7th), and Sense Motive at rank 5 (chosen at 10th). If that makes sense. Basically, I'm treating each unlock series as having four "tiers" or "levels."

Starting at 4th to encourage class loyalty.


So the ranks stop mattering then, right? They just become tiers. It could be good in this case to start at 5 and do 5/8/11/14/17/20, because I suspect that the debilitating injuries are going to be a solid class ability. Also gives rogue something at 5th.

I like it. My group plays again next Monday, and the rogue player took Bluff as his skill unlock. They're level 3 now. I'll post here if it comes into play, and keep situations for the other skill unlocks in mind to see if a rogue with one would have allowed the party to win where they otherwise wouldn't have, or if they would have had a significant impact on how an encounter (combat or otherwise) would have gone.

Paizo Employee Designer

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I think all these alternate proposals for the skill unlocks are awesome! As you might expect, when Unchaining, we shot for a middle ground (and you can see, some GMs have been posting about a few of them possibly being too strong and some want 'em all faster!) to make it easiest for you guys to mod it to exactly what works best for your games!

So giving them all 5 levels faster and giving each level 20 their own unique unlock (essentially making them like a grandmaster who gets to invent their own technique?) Awesome! And banning Bluff and Diplomacy because they'll be a problem for your game? Also good! Making tiered advancements like with weapon training? Cool!


Mark Seifter wrote:

I think all these alternate proposals for the skill unlocks are awesome! As you might expect, when Unchaining, we shot for a middle ground (and you can see, some GMs have been posting about a few of them possibly being too strong and some want 'em all faster!) to make it easiest for you guys to mod it to exactly what works best for your games!

So giving them all 5 levels faster and giving each level 20 their own unique unlock (essentially making them like a grandmaster who gets to invent their own technique?) Awesome! And banning Bluff and Diplomacy because they'll be a problem for your game? Also good! Making tiered advancements like with weapon training? Cool!

The fact that the book's created so much buzz that's primarily aimed at incorporating is a great sign, in my opinion. I'm sure there'll be plenty of people out there who've never seriously considered tinkering with the system that will want to take an idea and push it a little further. Really great job, to the whole team. I've been able to think of a circumstance where everything in the book would be beneficial to a campaign that wants it.

Liberty's Edge

Mark Seifter wrote:
So giving them all 5 levels faster and giving each level 20 their own unique unlock (essentially making them like a grandmaster who gets to invent their own technique?) Awesome!

For the record, this is more or less exactly what I was thinking with unique Level 20 Unlocks.

Puna'chong wrote:
The fact that the book's created so much buzz that's primarily aimed at incorporating is a great sign, in my opinion. I'm sure there'll be plenty of people out there who've never seriously considered tinkering with the system that will want to take an idea and push it a little further. Really great job, to the whole team. I've been able to think of a circumstance where everything in the book would be beneficial to a campaign that wants it.

I'll second this. I already use a bunch of House Rules, but the buzz over Unchained is very cool and is definitely inspiring me to revisit my House Rules and incorporate stuff from the book (Skill Unlocks, for example), or just stuff that the book brings to my attention (I've revised the Fighter a bunch more to go with the Unchained Classes).

Paizo Employee Designer

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While we're certainly very happy that people like you guys who were already tinkering are inspired by these ideas, Puna'chong is right that the best part for me will be the people out there who never seriously considered tinkering around and now give it a try. What can I say, I'm an engineer; I like it when people experiment!


Sir Dante wrote:

Just got my copy of unchained and have begun to read it through.

But the signature skill stopped me, is it just me or are they very underwhelming? I mean sure the rank 15 and 20 are good but very few games reach lvls 15-20.

Was just wondering if anyone else thought the unlocks should be something like 3,6,9,12 or 4,8,12,16 etc.

Any thoughts?

Most AP's reach level 15, but I agree that level 20 is rarely ever seen. I would have had them at 3,8,13,18. By the time you get to level 18, they are hardly going to be breaking anyone's game.

I would also have them open to everyone to make skills more useful overall, but I have give the rogue bonus skill tricks. I don't have a progression for it planned out yet though.

As for diplomacy it is not some sort of non-magical mind control. If some guy is hell-bent on taking over the world, he is not going to say "ok I change my mind" just because his friend asked him too, and diplomacy does not even make someone your actual friend. You can move someone to helpful and they can still kill you if you are in the way of ____.


As far as making the rogue the mater of skills they're supposed to be...

DISAPOINTED sums it up.

The level 5 and 10s are completely useless. Anything higher doesn't matter, IF the game gets that high magic takes over completely. It doesn't matter how much ability damage you heal up when the clerics handing out heal spells like candy.

A climb speed? Ok thats kinda ni...oh, it doesn't work on anything you'll be climbing at that level. Swim? same thing. Use magic device? Another thing you could maybe kinda do before but now is a special ability of rogues, Stealth is good.. but ONLY if you snipe, for everyone else its pointless


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
So giving them all 5 levels faster and giving each level 20 their own unique unlock (essentially making them like a grandmaster who gets to invent their own technique?) Awesome!

For the record, this is more or less exactly what I was thinking with unique Level 20 Unlocks.

Puna'chong wrote:
The fact that the book's created so much buzz that's primarily aimed at incorporating is a great sign, in my opinion. I'm sure there'll be plenty of people out there who've never seriously considered tinkering with the system that will want to take an idea and push it a little further. Really great job, to the whole team. I've been able to think of a circumstance where everything in the book would be beneficial to a campaign that wants it.
I'll second this. I already use a bunch of House Rules, but the buzz over Unchained is very cool and is definitely inspiring me to revisit my House Rules and incorporate stuff from the book (Skill Unlocks, for example), or just stuff that the book brings to my attention (I've revised the Fighter a bunch more to go with the Unchained Classes).

The clever thing that the designers did in Pathfinder Unchained is with many of these 'tinkerings' they are easily integrated into an existing campaign.

I was one of those brave souls who integrated TOB: The Book of Nine Swords into a long running campaign, in the end it had to be abandoned, just too much work.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

As far as making the rogue the mater of skills they're supposed to be...

DISAPOINTED sums it up.

The level 5 and 10s are completely useless. Anything higher doesn't matter, IF the game gets that high magic takes over completely. It doesn't matter how much ability damage you heal up when the clerics handing out heal spells like candy.

A climb speed? Ok thats kinda ni...oh, it doesn't work on anything you'll be climbing at that level. Swim? same thing. Use magic device? Another thing you could maybe kinda do before but now is a special ability of rogues, Stealth is good.. but ONLY if you snipe, for everyone else its pointless

You have to admit that the Intimidate and Appraise ones are really strong, though. The potency of the Intimidate skill unlock alone makes Thugs the best Unchained Rogues.


Arachnofiend wrote:


You have to admit that the Intimidate and Appraise ones are really strong, though. The potency of the Intimidate skill unlock alone makes Thugs the best Unchained Rogues.

using a skill mechanic thats already broken (intimidate checks that there's no defense for and can't be missed) doesn't make the rogue the master of mundane problem solving and diverse skills that they're supposed to be.

I don't see what you like about appraise. Duplicating a cantrip is no big deal, and you can usually appraise things at your leisure off of their corpse.

Liberty's Edge

BigNorseWolf wrote:

As far as making the rogue the mater of skills they're supposed to be...

DISAPOINTED sums it up.

The level 5 and 10s are completely useless. Anything higher doesn't matter, IF the game gets that high magic takes over completely. It doesn't matter how much ability damage you heal up when the clerics handing out heal spells like candy.

I get where you're coming from. Hence dropping their level requirements by 5. That gives you some cool stuff early, and the really good stuff starting at level 10 rather than 15.

What about this solution doesn't work for you? Well, other than not being PFS legal.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:


You have to admit that the Intimidate and Appraise ones are really strong, though. The potency of the Intimidate skill unlock alone makes Thugs the best Unchained Rogues.

using a skill mechanic thats already broken (intimidate checks that there's no defense for and can't be missed) doesn't make the rogue the master of mundane problem solving and diverse skills that they're supposed to be.

I don't see what you like about appraise. Duplicating a cantrip is no big deal, and you can usually appraise things at your leisure off of their corpse.

Yeah, I'm not totally sure what's so nasty about Appraise as a skill unlock. Every caster takes detect magic at creation. I guess if you have a campaign that relies on detecting forgeries its second part is kind of game-breaking, but it IS a class ability (or something you get from a feat).

Intimidate also gives a Will save (10 + ranks in Intimidate) against Frightened, and the rogue has to succeed by 10 or more anyways. The Will save might as well read 10 + rogue level, and for the most part that's not a difficult check to make, assuming the rogue does succeed by 10 or more. Hell, at level 15 I'm not sure you could ever get that off on a competent opponent; most of the time their Will save would brutalize your DC 25.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:


As far as making the rogue the mater of skills they're supposed to be...
DISAPOINTED sums it up.
The level 5 and 10s are completely useless. Anything higher doesn't matter, IF the game gets that high magic takes over completely. It doesn't matter how much ability damage you heal up when the clerics handing out heal spells like candy.

I get where you're coming from. Hence dropping their level requirements by 5. That gives you some cool stuff early, and the really good stuff starting at level 10 rather than 15.

What about this solution doesn't work for you? Well, other than not being PFS legal.

I think BNW means the unlocks as written.


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I would like to point out that an "indifferent" red dragon might still have plenty of perfectly logical reasons to kill you. And some diplomacy and bluff attempts are flatly impossible.

Quote:


Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future.

Diplomacy can be used to modify a creature's attitude or convince it to perform at least minimally reasonable tasks, but it's not mind control.

Bluff is more flexible but similarly

Quote:


Note that some lies are so improbable that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are true (subject to GM discretion).

which is part of the reason the upper level Bluff unlocks, while not immensely powerful, are cool. They allow the rogue to at least play football with the party spellcasters. They can do at least some of the ball-rolling that would otherwise tie up spellcasting resources.

On the other hand, many potential rogue archetypes are now obsolesced, as different skill choices give your characters a markedly different focus. Choosing Bluff can make your character into a con artist or spymaster.


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Yeah, there seems to be a conception that Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff always work if you make a high enough roll. But even CRB, RAW, they don't. They don't remove the agency of the monsters, they just help adjust a course of action that's probable into one that's possible. If the creature decides it absolutely will not listen to you, then you can't Diplomacize or Blufferate it, and if you're actively stabbing at it, it doesn't care how nicely you ask it to put down its sword.


Should all character classes get skill unlocks or should it be strictly a rogue thing?

A bit of a conundrum as skill unlocks definitely make the rogue class more appealing but there are many other classes who rely on skills, like the Bard and Investigator.


I would say "rogues" in the more generic first-second edition sense of the word should get them. That said at the nonce I'm going to introduce them as a pathfinder rogue specific thing to see what sort of flavor it brings before expanding.

EDIT: I rather like the idea of shifting the unlocks forward 5 levels.

Liberty's Edge

I'm making them available to everyone, but only at the cost of a Feat, as suggested, that (plus my giving one at 1st level) gives the Rogue 5 free Feats, and the possibility of more (via Cutting Ege) as well as applying Skill Mastery to all of them.

That plus a high number of skill points are maybe not ideal, but sufficient, to give the Rogue some solid skill options even as compared to Investigator or Bard.


Morzadian wrote:

Should all character classes get skill unlocks or should it be strictly a rogue thing?

A bit of a conundrum as skill unlocks definitely make the rogue class more appealing but there are many other classes who rely on skills, like the Bard and Investigator.

I was considering let all the classes do it, but give a rogue more for free. If any non-rogue class wanted more than I was giving for free they have to burn a feat.


Use magic device arguably gets NERFED by this...

The bonus from use Magic Device at 10 ranks is you take a -10 with that itme for 24 hours.

At level 20 you can reroll if you roll a 1 at -10.

Use magic CAN work on a 1 normally. The rules say if you roll a 1 AND fail the roll you can not use it for 24 hours. A lot of builds will by level 10 not fail on a 1. Using wands is probably one of the things it is used for most (DC20).

Sorceror/Oracle/Bard level 10, 18 charisma (low for level 10) 10 ranks of UMD to qualify for the 10 rank effect with a Circlet of persuasion has a skill of 10 (ranks) +3 (class skill) + 3 (circlet) +4 (stat) 20. Even on a 1 he successfully activates any wand.

With this ability if he rolled a 1 he would take a -10 on all rolls with that wand for the next 24 hours.

Liberty's Edge

Uh...that's not what that ability says.

What it says is that you take a penalty (and I quote) instead of being unable to activate it. Nobody sane is gonna have that apply in circumstances where you could've continued being able to activate it...that's simply not how English works.

And the level 20 ability is optional, so nobody can force you to use it if you don't want to.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Uh...that's not what that ability says.

What it says is that you take a penalty (and I quote) instead of being unable to activate it.

Again the quote

Quote:
If you roll a natural 1 when activating an item, you take a –10 penalty on Use Magic Device checks with that item for 24 hours instead of being unable to activate it. This penalty stacks with itself.

It does not say if you roll a natural 1 and fail to activate. Only that you roll a natural 1.

The part you linked and bolded does say instead of being unable to activate it, but it appears to assume that any 1 makes you unable to activagte rather than a 1 combined with a failure.

Quote:
Nobody sane is gonna have that apply in circumstances where you could've continued being able to activate it...that's simply not how English works.

The problem is not everyone is familiar with the wording of the actual skill and that it requires BOTH a 1 and for that 1 not to succeed for the item not to be operable via UMD for 24 hours. I suspect the person who wrote the skill missed it also. Someone looking at the ability might apply it not realizing the way it works in the original write up and thus apply the penalty, not out of any lack of sanity but lack of knowledge.

Which is why I wish (and hope in future editions) that it says "If you roll a natural 1 and fail to activate an item, you take a –10 penalty on Use Magic Device checks with that item for 24 hours instead of being unable to activate it. This penalty stacks with itself."

Liberty's Edge

Ughbash wrote:

The problem is not everyone is familiar with the wording of the actual skill and that it requires BOTH a 1 and for that 1 not to succeed for the item not to be operable via UMD for 24 hours. I suspect the person who wrote the skill missed it also. Someone looking at the ability might apply it not realizing the way it works in the original write up and thus apply the penalty, not out of any lack of sanity but lack of knowledge.

Which is why I wish (and hope in future editions) that it says "If you roll a natural 1 and fail to activate an item, you take a –10 penalty on Use Magic Device checks with that item for 24 hours instead of being unable to activate it. This penalty stacks with itself."

Oh, there's potential for confusion, but that's a subject for the errata thread, not claims that it nerfs the skill.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Huh, I actually changed it to "If you roll a natural 1 and fail to activate an item" in D1. It must have lost that bit somewhere down the line, my guess is in copyfitting.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I don't see what you like about appraise. Duplicating a cantrip is no big deal, and you can usually appraise things at your leisure off of their corpse.

It makes a Steal build much more doable (along with the improvement to the Combat Swipe talent). You know which item to target first -- especially helpful if you're going against someone with a lot of decoy items.


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Morzadian wrote:

Should all character classes get skill unlocks or should it be strictly a rogue thing?

A bit of a conundrum as skill unlocks definitely make the rogue class more appealing but there are many other classes who rely on skills, like the Bard and Investigator.

I'm gonna keep it just for rogues. The other classes usually already have something going for them, whether its spells or whatever. And one of the things people kept complaining about with the rogue was other classes basically taking what the rogue does (via archetypes granting trapfinding, sneak attack etc) and still getting nice class features so I wanna keep this as one of the special things only the rogue gets (at least until they start releasing archetypes that steal it too!)

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