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So, I finally played my level 11 PFS character last night that has 5 levels in rogue (unchained now). She is a Cavalier (Gendarme) 4/Unchained Rogue (Thug, Scout) 5/Hellknight 2, built to use Sap Master, Enforcer and Dazzling Display. The Skill Unlock for Intimidate was very powerful. She has a +47 to intimidate with 300gp of 1 hour consumables used, and was pretty much auto success on the beat the DC by 10. So 1 Standard Action (Braggart) to DC 21 Panic all enemies within 30ft. was very powerful. Debilitating Injury never really got to shine, most things died during my sneak attack or just after. Panicking 6 enlarge enemies was the most fun, they dropped their falchions, which then shrunk.
I'm fine with letting Rouges have more Skill Unlocks. I would rather that they got earlier Skill Unlocks though, and that Skill Unlocks were just something automatic after a certain amount of ranks.
Hell, maybe let the Rogue count as having a rank or 2 in every skill, or maybe let the Rogue put in more skill ranks than HD (perhaps to some maximum like 1.5 HD or something) to unlock the necessary skills earlier. That way, the Rogue can still be the ultimate skill monkey, but it wouldn't needlessly lock out skills for the rest of the classes.
Plus, it would also give them quite the niche with certain feat/PrC requirements without being too overbearing.
If I was going to implement skill unlocks, I would give each class a number of unlocks equal to half the base number of skill points each class receives. They could then take a feat for additional unlocks. So a wizard would get 1 unlock and a rogue 4. (Plus the 4 they would get through rogues edge netting 8.) Overall its a net boost to skill monkeying, which isn't a bad thing.
Then people really would take one level in Rogue for the four free skill-locks and be done with it. Just like the Grouped Skills, that should be based on the lowest number of class skill points you have, not the highest.
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1 round diplomacy is just too much. Virtually any intelligent entity can be convinced to at least not be hostile with the right build and this ability. Which I'm against. Some villains should be so pissed that they're going to try to kill you regardless of what you say. But the rules as presented would allow you to sweet talk them.
Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future.
1 round diplomacy is just too much. Virtually any intelligent entity can be convinced to at least not be hostile with the right build and this ability. Which I'm against. Some villains should be so pissed that they're going to try to kill you regardless of what you say. But the rules as presented would allow you to sweet talk them.Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future.
You take my first post in the thread and ignore all the discussion around it, to bring it back up after the side topic was pretty well dead.
Why? To point out what I know?
I know that is what the rules say, the problem is players who try to argue about what "generally ineffective" means and so forth. Much easier for me to apply patches to my groups gaming rules.
I know that is what the rules say, the problem is players who try to argue about what "generally ineffective" means and so forth. Much easier for me to apply patches to my groups gaming rules.
If your players are the ones trying to argue with that, maybe they need the patch, not the rules.
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If I was going to implement skill unlocks, I would give each class a number of unlocks equal to half the base number of skill points each class receives. They could then take a feat for additional unlocks. So a wizard would get 1 unlock and a rogue 4. (Plus the 4 they would get through rogues edge netting 8.) Overall its a net boost to skill monkeying, which isn't a bad thing.Then people really would take one level in Rogue for the four free skill-locks and be done with it. Just like the Grouped Skills, that should be based on the lowest number of class skill points you have, not the highest.
we all have to remember that rogues edge is meant to give a soft boost to rogues, not the whole spectrum of classes. If another class wants it they have provided a way: signature skill feat which grants ONE skill unlock.
also, rogues edge is given at level 5 which prevents easy dips
Furthermore, if a rogue wants to capitalize on skill unlocks they can take cutting edge at level 10 for a total of 4 unlocks
With that said i think the devs should come up with a trait that lets someone consider all unlocks as if they had 10 more ranks. That way the level 10 rogue with 4 unlocks that works as if he had 20 ranks can do some pretty cool things... so can the expert innkeeper who took signature skill: heal or the level 10 dwarf warrior with 10 ranks in craft weapons that can whip up a magic longsword +1 for you if he has 9 months to work on it (I.e. this opens up a whole new world of possibilities for the DM in the form of useful one shot low level NPCs that are really good at one thing...)
I like the idea of making the unlocks happen 5 levels earlier. I might use that.
You might want to mandate that these skills be class skills as well.
“Rogue Edge” is level 5, 10, 15, and 20th levels. This grants one Skill Unlock – Stealth, Bluff, Crafting, etc.
“Skill Unlocks” ranks are 5, 10, 15, and 20. Each rank achieved gives a perk for that skill.
For example: Climb, 5 Ranks: You are no longer denied your Dexterity bonus when climbing.
They’re fun. I think you do give everyone an unlock in a home game.
To keep the “Rogue Edge”:
You could give Rogue’s the rank unlock perk five ranks earlier.
You could give the Rogue a free “Skill Unlock“ at level one.
You could give the Rogue Certainty(ex) for free at level 5 or give them an additional use.
Certainty is the free reroll of skills checks.
I like how most topics about rogues are about how people shouldn't be playing rogues. Rogues are weak, other classes are better skill monkeys than rogues, other classes can get what should be rogue only mechanics like trapfinding and sneak attack, other classes are better rogues than rogues, you get the idea.
So Unchained comes out to make rogues more appealing to people who think rogues are inferior to other classes. One of the new draws is the signature skill unlocks. Everyone goes like "omg what a good idea. But why are they rogue only? Everyone else should get them. FOR FREE!" instead of you know, spending a feat to get one because it will be eating away at their resources.
I wonder if anyone else sees the same problem as I do here.
I assume this is directed at me, since I made both of these points in recent threads.
There is a difference between assessing the reality of the situation and thinking up the best way forward. The reality of the situation is that currently, Rogues are not the best skill monkey class. But when it comes down to it, this has been true since Core.
Rogues certainly get the most skills, but even in Core it was the Bard who got his skills to do more work for him. Versatile Performance, Jack of all Trades, Lore Master--what class feature does the Rogue have that makes him better at skills? Rogues don't even have any benefit for prioritizing INT, meaning that eventually even the Wizard would soon surpass them in ranks.
So when it comes down to it, Rogues were never really about skills. Even then however, skill unlocks solve a problem that runs deeper than Rogues do. They solve (or at least attempt to solve) the rampant caster-martial disparity that exists.
As we all know, there are many spells that completely obviate the need for certain skills (i.e. Fly >> Acrobatics, Climb, Charm Person >> Diplomacy, etc.). And as I and many others suggested, buffing skills to similar power as spells would be a way to help martials stay relevant and contribute to the story effectively.
Since the Rogue has the most skill ranks, free and unlimited skill unlocks would certainly help the Rogue out more than most. Furthermore, it would make INT a competitive stat among martials, when many people bemoan the stereotype of the "Big Dumb Fighter."
Yes, the wizard specifically would also gain access to useful unlocks, but even then would the ability to emulate Invisibility on a Stealth check that could possibly fail be worth much when he can cast Greater Invisibility at the same level if not much earlier? Giving the wizard access to low level spells doesn't increase the power level of the class when it's all just weaker versions of stuff he can already do!
As for the issue with Trapfinding and sneak attack, that sort of stuff happens to every class. Barbarians aren't the only class that can rage now, either (Viking Fighter, Anyone who can select the Rage subdomain). The way to solve the issue would be to make the Rogue better at Trapfinding and Sneak Attack, not giving them exclusive access to skill unlocks (which, if you really think about it, doesn't really make sense when the things you can do with a skill should be defined by the amount of ranks you have in it, not whether or not you like to pickpocket or kidney stab people).
The problem with more signature skill unlocks for the rogue is the same one that the rogue has with skill ranks: more does not make you any better.
If you can take a feat for one signature skill unlock you take the best one. If you can take 2 you get the best and second best, three and third best and so on. Its diminishing returns.
True, plus giving Rogue the equivalent of a free feat isn't going to fix it's problems.
What I would really like to see is turning Trap setting into a Rogue class ability. It should give you the ability to trap certain areas in the field with traps that do different things. Maybe early level traps can do stuff like entangle the opponent, or make the area difficult terrain for a short while, while later traps could be the equivalent of Explosive Runes, or Cloudkill. Maybe give them the ability mix and match traps, similar to effect words in wordspells. Maybe they can add their sneak attack damage to traps that they set, including modifications that deal ability damage instead. A rogue shouldn't have to get up close and personal to do damage, IMHO.
That way, the Rogue gets a rather interesting ability that is incredibly flavorful but also useful battlefield control at the same time, withtout being rampantly overpowered. The Rogue should in fact be the Master of Traps. Why not add more depth to the class?
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Now, giving the rogue ranks + rogue levels for the effective number of ranks for the skills on the other hand, mightbe a real class feature.
You mean like ranger traps which also come as a feat?
Basically yes. But with perhaps even more expanded options.
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I like how most topics about rogues are about how people shouldn't be playing rogues. Rogues are weak, other classes are better skill monkeys than rogues, other classes can get what should be rogue only mechanics like trapfinding and sneak attack, other classes are better rogues than rogues, you get the idea.
So Unchained comes out to make rogues more appealing to people who think rogues are inferior to other classes. One of the new draws is the signature skill unlocks. Everyone goes like "omg what a good idea. But why are they rogue only? Everyone else should get them. FOR FREE!" instead of you know, spending a feat to get one because it will be eating away at their resources.
I wonder if anyone else sees the same problem as I do here.
I am going to point out something that has been bugging the heck out of me with regards to rogues and how they don't have their deserved "niche protection".
Seriously, all of the ****ing classes poach the **** out of all the other classes' toys. FFS, every single class has a pile of archetypes that let that class be a somewhat different version of another class. NOBODY HAS NICHE PROTECTION. The only class that falls apart and weeps when it has to compete with another class is the rogue (even the fighter has some reason to exist, despite it being pretty crappy as a class). Why do people seem to think that the rogue should get some special ticket to be it's own special snowflake that nobody can be similar to in any way.
Seriously.
The arcanist, sorcerer and wizard all compete for the same niche. They all play somewhat differently and they all have their own strengths, but outside of really niche builds you can replace one of the classes with another and still end up with a competent PC that can fill it's role.
All of the martial classes end up competing. They all play slightly differently, but they all ultimately do the same thing.
Hunter, Sacred Huntmaster
Bard, Inquisitor, Investigator, Alchemist, most of the other tier 3 classes. They all are flexible enough to fill most of any role another tier 3 class can fill. They can all do each other's jobs and despite that they all have merit on their own as a class. They don't need any niche protection.
Only the rogue does. Because the rogue is terrible(unchained not withstanding).
If you think that the rogue is crappy and needs to be helped somehow, I agree. However, the rogue should be getting helped by getting better options. Not by restricting the design space of the entire Pathfinder RPG because a single feature of the rogue getting taken by another class makes the rogue an impotent useless POS that is completely outshadowed in every meaningful way barring highly niche builds.
Oly, please read the whole conversation (which had really eneded) before you add your comments. I agree with your general position, but it doesn't work for my group because of my players thoughts on how bluff and diplomacy should work.
Using DM fiat to say that the lie isn't reasonable or to say that the creature is too hostile and doesn't listen to diplomacy aren't options with my group. Ergo, I must change the rules for my group.
I like how most topics about rogues are about how people shouldn't be playing rogues. Rogues are weak, other classes are better skill monkeys than rogues, other classes can get what should be rogue only mechanics like trapfinding and sneak attack, other classes are better rogues than rogues, you get the idea.
So Unchained comes out to make rogues more appealing to people who think rogues are inferior to other classes. One of the new draws is the signature skill unlocks. Everyone goes like "omg what a good idea. But why are they rogue only? Everyone else should get them. FOR FREE!" instead of you know, spending a feat to get one because it will be eating away at their resources.
I wonder if anyone else sees the same problem as I do here.
I am going to point out something that has been bugging the heck out of me with regards to rogues and how they don't have their deserved "niche protection".
Seriously, all of the ****ing classes poach the **** out of all the other classes' toys. FFS, every single class has a pile of archetypes that let that class be a somewhat different version of another class. NOBODY HAS NICHE PROTECTION. The only class that falls apart and weeps when it has to compete with another class is the rogue (even the fighter has some reason to exist, despite it being pretty crappy as a class). Why do people seem to think that the rogue should get some special ticket to be it's own special snowflake that nobody can be similar to in any way.
Seriously.
The arcanist, sorcerer and wizard all compete for the same niche. They all play somewhat differently and they all have their own strengths, but outside of really niche builds you can replace one of the classes with another and still end up with a competent PC that can fill it's role.All of the martial classes end up competing. They all play slightly differently, but they all ultimately do the same thing.
Hunter, Sacred Huntmaster
Bard, Inquisitor, Investigator, Alchemist, most of the...
Skill Unlocks are how the Rogue is (theoretically) competitive with the Investigator in skills. Sure, the Investigator can get bigger numbers with Inspiration, but the Rogue has a far wider variety of uses for skills. This is exactly what you're arguing every other class does: same niche, but they do it in a different way so people can pick which one they prefer.
Now you give the Investigator Skill Unlocks, and the Investigator still has Inspiration. What the f*&! is the Rogue supposed to do about that?