Retraining question


Pathfinder Society

Shadow Lodge

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so before I begin I want to make it clear that while this is NOT a request for any particular retraining .. but more about procedure and clarification on how to do it - I have also asked this question in the past but to no answer

Mike Brock Responded to a thread here

I don't want to be a ninja anymore why can't I rebuild my PFS Ninja for Free

again ... this is NOT questioning this decision and I would have responded there but it seems that the thread was locked before I got to it (at least it seems locked since I cannot respond)

Mike Brock wrote:


You can retrain rogue into unchained rogue or vice versa. You can not retrain ninja into unchained rogue unless you want to use the retraining rules already established.

cool thats the Ruling .. the last part tho makes me ask the question ------ how is this done

the retraining Rules State - Quoted from SRD due to ease of text copy / paste

Pathfinder SRD wrote:


One of the most critical choices you can make about your character is what class to choose when you gain a level.

In general, it takes 7 days to retrain one level in a class into one level in another class. Some classes are more suited for this kind of retraining, as they have a similar focus or purpose—this is called retraining synergy. If your old class has retraining synergy with your new class, retraining that class level takes only 5 days instead of 7 days. Determine class retraining synergies according to Table 3 –8: Retraining Synergies.

Most prestige classes have retraining synergy with base classes that share their common class features. For example, the arcane trickster prestige class requires and advances arcane spellcasting, so it has retraining synergy with all arcane spellcasting classes. It also requires and advances sneak attack, so it has retraining synergy with classes that grant sneak attack. The GM is the final arbiter of whether or not a prestige class has retraining synergy with a base class, but should err on the side of generosity—if you would rather spend time retraining levels over and over again instead of adventuring, that is your choice.

now when you get deeper into this you have to take a look at how Alternate Classes are worded

Pathfinder SRD wrote:


Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.

as far as I can tell Class retraining is done 1 at a time not in bulk and also from Highest level to lowest so the question of procedure becomes important

so a Ninja 6 Wanting to retrain into Rogue would have to go by Steps (theoretically)

so the particular questions are

A) is Retraining done in Bulk Rather than 1 Item at a time
B) does Ninja Consider to have Synergy with Rogue
C) do we treat this as a Class or an Archtype

there are probably another few that I could tack onto this but they arent coming to mind

Liberty's Edge

Wraith235 wrote:

A) is Retraining done in Bulk Rather than 1 Item at a time

B) does Ninja Consider to have Synergy with Rogue
C) do we treat this as a Class or an Archtype

A) That's up to you. You would only be limited by the amount of gold and prestige points you have available to pay for the retraining.

B) No. If you look just below the text you quoted, you will see the list of class synergies. Ninja is not listed there. Neither is Samurai.
C) Class. The Ninja is a class, not an archetype.

It seems, though, that you know this, but are rather looking for an exception to be made for the ninja (and perhaps the samurai). If that's the case, it would probably be better to state that explicitly in your initial post and the title of your thread.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ron Feldman wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:

A) is Retraining done in Bulk Rather than 1 Item at a time

B) does Ninja Consider to have Synergy with Rogue
C) do we treat this as a Class or an Archtype

A) That's up to you. You would only be limited by the amount of gold and prestige points you have available to pay for the retraining.

B) No. If you look just below the text you quoted, you will see the list of class synergies. Ninja is not listed there. Neither is Samurai.
C) Class. The Ninja is a class, not an archetype.

It seems, though, that you know this, but are rather looking for an exception to be made for the ninja (and perhaps the samurai). If that's the case, it would probably be better to state that explicitly in your initial post and the title of your thread.

no ... Im actually not looking for an exception but rather a ruling, I am well past my bout of retraining (added 2 levels of monk and 1 level of ranger to fix the issues)

but Look at
A) you cannot have both levels of Ninja and Rogue as per the Alternate class rulings
B) so then a 4th level Ninja CANNOT retrain into a 4th level Rogue due to PA Requirements (1PA/day = 7 days non synergy ... Max of 6PA / level)
C) I tend to agree tho there has been language in the past that make Alternate classes more akin to Archtypes than classes

Mike Stated that its possible to do it - Im just asking how

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

This is a difficult question, due to the fact you can't take levels in both Ninja and rogue on the same PC. Since you retrain 1 level at a time technically you are having both classes on the same PC which is not allowed.

And Ninja is not a class it is an alternate class which is different, it is more like an archetype but is not an archetype which makes it even more confusing.

I would personally treat it like an archetype retrain then a class retrain because of the restrictions mentioned above.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The Ninja is an alternate class. An alternate class is specifically called out as being just a big archetype. Ninja isn't on the chart with rogue simply because the ninja IS a rogue. They're in the same place on the chart.

A) is Retraining done in Bulk Rather than 1 Item at a time

a barbarian retraining into rogue could go in bulk or one level at a time, it wouldn't matter.

For a ninja to untrained rogue it would HAVE to be done in bulk. You cannot multiclass ninja rogue, so either ALL of your ninja levels go or NONE of them can.

B) does Ninja Consider to have Synergy with Rogue

I'd say yes. You can't get closer to your own clas than.. your class.

C) do we treat this as a Class or an Archtype

Not sure. PFS seems to be treating it like a different class.

Shadow Lodge

as you can see 2 diferent people - 2 different opinions on the matter - and with unchained now out and all the ninja's wanting to become unchained rogues I see this question comming up a LOT more -

this is why Im hoping for some kind of official ruling

as I said I went through this months ago but over evasion and trap-finding, I was lucky to find my own way of making it work

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

I don't get people bailing in the ninja to go unchained. What am i missing there?

Shadow Lodge

Weapon finesse and Dex to Damage for 1 weapon at 3rd and 11th level without a feats or enchantments - thats the big one and

in general its just better than the basic rogue

Liberty's Edge

I think most people went ninja just because the rogue was obviously a poorer choice, when what they really wanted was just a rogue that was a little more competent, which is the new rogue. So a lot of people have a chance to play what they originally envisioned in the character, but have a multi level ninja that they don't want to have to abandon because they can't afford to retrain or aren't willing to pay the retraining costs on. And I can't really blame them, it's basically throwing away all the prestige you've earned up until that point.

But the same could be said for all the Bardbarians, fighter/clerics and Ranger/Rogues before the ACG came out. It just stings a bit to know that you've had to make sacrifices in character optimization, find obscure workarounds, and piece a character together out of random bits, or even settle for something that's not 100% what you've envisioned for the character. Then what you've wanted the whole time comes along, but you can't have it, because of reasons.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Wraith

Do the math for both doing it as an archetype, and doing it as a class.

When we see what the math actually is, maybe that will make a difference, or maybe it won't.

Regardless how you do it, I'd say it definitely has synergy.

Shadow Lodge

Andrew Christian wrote:

Wraith

Do the math for both doing it as an archetype, and doing it as a class.

When we see what the math actually is, maybe that will make a difference, or maybe it won't.

Regardless how you do it, I'd say it definitely has synergy.

Ugh you had to say that ... ok

Class
As we've seen if there is no Synergy - 7PA/ level
if there is Synergy - 5PA/level

Archtype Theory- Following the example given in Ultimate campaign you would only need to pay the cost once to Drop any given ability (thank god or this gets ugly)
Each ability is 5PA to Drop - for the purpose of this excersise I will Treat Sneak Attack and No Trace as 1 ability (or this breaks before we even begin) and use a 12th level model and only including the levels where an ability is gained

Max PA / level is 6

1st - 0-5PA
Poison Use 5PA
Sneak Attack 5PA
Total 10PA

2nd -6PA
Ki Pool 5PA
Ninja Trick 5PA
Total 20PA

3rd 12PA
No Trace +1 5PA
Total 25PA

4th 18PA
Ninja Trick 5PA
Uncanny Dodge 5PA
Total 35PA

6th 30PA
Light Steps 5PA
Ninja Trick 5PA
Total 45PA

8th 42PA
Improved Uncanny Dodge 5PA
Ninja Trick 5PA
Total 55PA

10th 54PA
Master Trick 5PA
Total 60PA

11th 60PA
Total 60PA

12th 66PA
Ninja Trick 5PA
Total 65PA

so following that ... a Straight class Ninja COULD Retrain at 11th (0PA Spent)or 12th level if they only ever spent 1 PA over their entire career

if this excersise had been done at the projected average of 4PA/ level it would be impossible - but then so would class even with Synergy

an Argument could be made for the Following
Sneak Attack - Both get the ability at Identical levels
Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge - both get the abilities at Identical levels

This Thought IMHO Holds more water than the Following

Ninja Trick and Master Trick really puts us in the same boat either way we look at it - its either multiple entries or 1 entry with class feature retraining (since its different lists) - this is further supported via the following statment

SRD Sidebar wrote:


The retraining rules say, "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again." Therefore, if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class, you no longer have access to the class features from that prestige class, and therefore can't use that prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself).

yes I realize this is quoting PRC's - but the ninja trick / master trick and Rogue talent / Advanced Talent are separate lists even tho the other side of the coin is that you can take the other classes Trick ability multiple times

and a combination of Uncanny dodge / improved Uncanny dodge / Sneak attack totals to 15PA Saved by level 8 which doesnt help much but does make it possible (40PA of 42PA possible total)

Tricks being removed from the calculation totals to an additional 30PA(5 at 2,4,6,8,10 and 12 Respectively) Saved at level 12 which would make this work - but an awful lot of YMMV and GM interpretation would have to go your way

there are a lot of other factors to consider as well - via the example on archtype retraining its concievable that you would have to pay for evasion, trapfinding, Trap Sense, and improved evasion Personally I dont think you would have to since the assumption with the Arctype theory is that Ninja is an archtype of Rogue so your only "Dropping alternate abilities"

but still the math doesnt add up when it comes to full Ninja Retrain without the stars aligning properly and the gods of GM'dom are completely on your side

Dips and partials builds is a different discussion - but this one as Ive said falls back into the question of - are you retraining in bulk or 1 at a time supported by the following

SRD wrote:
Example: Mark is playing a ranger 5/rogue 2, and has decided he'd like to retrain one of his ranger levels into a rogue level (so he has to find a 3rd-level rogue). When he completes the training, he immediately loses all benefits from taking ranger level 5 (base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, Hit Dice, hit points, skill ranks, and class features), then gains 1 level in rogue, immediately gaining all the benefits of rogue level 3. Mark's character is now a ranger 4/rogue 3. This retraining did not change Mark's 7th-level feat.

on a Side note while scroling through Retraining I realise I was Wrong about the lack of presence of the Samurai, Ninja or Antipaladin ... it seems they are listed in the "Class Featurs" Section but that is the ONLY mention of Alternate classes

I know Ive said this several times but
Again - I am not questioning the Ruling which was made regarding Ninja and unchained rogue - all I am asking for is a procedural clarification on Alternate classes Retraining into their parents

Edit - Multiple edits based on fact and rules checking, Formatting and my disclaimer

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Deighton Thrane wrote:
But the same could be said for all the Bardbarians, fighter/clerics and Ranger/Rogues before the ACG came out. It just stings a bit to know that you've had to make sacrifices in character optimization, find obscure workarounds, and piece a character together out of random bits, or even settle for something that's not 100% what you've envisioned for the character. Then what you've wanted the whole time comes along, but you can't have it, because of reasons.

It shouldn't sting -- it should be a badge of honor at making a concept work. Multiclassing fighter/rogue/druid was an awe-inspiring proof of system mastery -- much more impressive than simply taking levels in some remastered "bard".

Shadow Lodge

Looks like I ran past the edit mark

in conclusion IF retraining is done in Bulk then Class for Class is the safest way to go - as long as there IS Synergy and CAN be done in bulk- but if you've missed more than 1 PA / level it becomes impossible - and Synergy as we have seen is subject to individual GM interpretation

by the Numbers - if you can justify Uncanny, imp uncanny and sneak attack dont have a retrain cost (More than likely)
AND
the Ninja and rogue tricks as Identical and rule that they dont require retrain costs(this is 9 levels of Shady and has more bugs than a bait store) then Archtype is the way to go

either way I believe there is too much left open to interpretation of the individual GM's to not get a hard Ruling on this

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 aka GreySector

Assuming you own the Pathfinder Society Primer you could purchase a monastery vanity for 5 prestige which would help defray the cost of your retraining.

Pathfinder Society Primer p. 29 wrote:
Monastery (5 PP): Your accomplishments have earned you an invitation from a prestigious school of meditation, athletics, or combat arts. Regularly training with the monastery’s instructors builds endurance and patience, granting you the discipline to train faster and more efficiently. When using the retraining rules presented in Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Campaign to retrain any character ability that would take 5 or more days to complete, you reduce the number of days needed per retraining action by 1.

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