Take back your ki, people!


Advice


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

With all the discussion on the new unchained monk and their severe lack of ki points, I thought I would post this so people trying out the new class wouldn't feel like they were totally without options.

- A big thanks to Luthorn for helping me compile these -

Ki mats, from Ultimate Equipment, can get you a ki point back with 1 hour of meditation.

Faiths of Balance offers the bronze gong as a 100gp channel focus that, when charged with a use of channel energy, allows the person ringing it to regain 1 ki if they worship Irori.

Similarly, the Adventurer's Armory gives us the meditation crystal as a 100gp channel focus that does almost the same thing, save that it takes 1 minute to regain the point of ki. Good for non-Irori worshipers.

There is also the wyrwood special material in Ultimate Equipment, which when confirming a critical hit, lets it gain a point that can be turned into a ki point as a swift action. It can only be used for wooden weapons or weapons with wooden hafts though.

Naturally, there is the Extra Ki feat for increasing your ki pool by +2.

The Ki Channel feat from Inner Sea Gods requires you to have the ability to channel positive energy and worship Irori, but it allows those affected by your positive channeling to choose to instead regain a number of ki points equal to the number of dice that would normally have been rolled to heal them.

The ring of ki mastery from Ultimate Equipment allows you to store 2 points of ki in it that remain until used, which presumably allows you to regain those points normally, effectively granting a +2 bonus to your ki pool, as well as reducing the cost of ki techniques.

The husk dart from Melee Tactics Toolbox is a unique magical weapon; a wushu dart that when it crits against a living creature, has them make a DC 16 Fort save or be under the effect of feast of ashes spell while granting the wielder 2d6 temporary hit points that last 24 hours, treating them as if they had had a meal, and restores 1 point of ki as well. Given that wushu darts are made of wood, you might be able to get a wyrwood husk dart.

The amulet of hidden strength from Ultimate Equipment lets you regain two points of ki as a full-round action once a day.

The ki crystal from the Faction Guide gives you a one-use item for 2,000 gp that stores a point of ki in it that you can use as if it was yours.

The necklace of ki serenity from Ultimate Equipment treats you as if you were 4 levels higher for determining the size of your ki pool.

The master's name from Lost Treasures lets you regain half your ki pool once per day, but this can't go over your maximum ki pool.

There's the ki leech spell from Ultimate Magic that lets you steal ki.

Inner Sea Gods also gives us the replenish ki spell.

There's also the Honored Fist of the Society trait from Faction Guide that gives you +1 ki point if you're a member of the Pathfinder Society.

And finally, you have the monk vows from Ultimate Magic which, if your willing to accept steep penalties, can increase your ki pool substantially.

Are there any other options you guys can think of that might make an unchained monk's ki more manageable?


Nice thread! Thanks!

On a related note, what do you think is the best weapon to have made out of wyrwood for an unchained monk?


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Umm I don't have any ki people...


Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but isn't (1/2 class level + Wis mod) what they always had?

Ghorrin Redblade


Ki leech as a free to use qinggong power. Turns ki into Grit. Edit: the way you now get it back ok kills and crits not really into Grit.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Ki leech is an evil power though, which may cause problems in games that pay attention to alignment.

Redblade8 wrote:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but isn't (1/2 class level + Wis mod) what they always had?

Ghorrin Redblade

Yes, but with nearly all of their class abilities being dependent upon them--and with many of said class abilities actually costing more than they used to--many people believe that the old/current amount just isn't enough for your typical adventuring day.

If you fall and want to land softly? 1 ki point.
If you want the chance of quivering palming someone? 4 ki points.
Want to heal 2d8+Wis damage? 2 ki points.
Attempting to remove that poison in your system? 1 ki point.

It goes on and on and on. Probably 3/4 of your total monk class abilities are totally dependent on your ki pool.


Redblade8 wrote:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but isn't (1/2 class level + Wis mod) what they always had?

Ghorrin Redblade

Old monk had (1/2 class level + Wis mod) Ki points, and various archetypes to increase that.

Old Monk's class features are now Ki Powers that require Ki to use (if you want that free running start you need to pay a ki for it).
New Monk's ki costs for some things are like 3 ki per use.
So the base is the same, but the options for increasing/restoring it are limited, and the demand for Ki has increased. Thus making the pool too small and creating a lack of Ki.

If cost of living goes up would you say you have less money? Isn't your unchanged income what you always had? Why would you have less money?

Paizo Employee Designer

Chess Pwn wrote:

(if you want that free running start you need to pay a ki for it).

This is not the case.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

(if you want that free running start you need to pay a ki for it).

This is not the case.

You're right it's not true but it expresses the point by using an exaggerated fictitious example

Silver Crusade

Ravingdork wrote:
Ki leech is an evil power though, which may cause problems in games that pay attention to alignment.

Wait, ki leech is evil??? ... <Guess it is.>

That's pretty problematic.

I've spent the last couple hours grappling with the Unchained Monk. I've never played or bothered to learn the original Monk, so I figured I'd have fresh eyes and few-to-no pre-judgments (not to say prejudices) about the class. Thought I'd see what all the fuss was about. It's been an instructive exercise.

But one of my first thoughts was that picking up ki leech as the Level 10 Ki Power was pretty much obligatory to make the Monk work, given the very limited ki and the need to use it consistently (it's not just a nice bonus, it's fundamental).

If that assessment is correct (again, I'm new to the class so maybe it isn't), then I was already pretty annoyed with the "hidden requirement" nature of that choice (see also, barkskin as your Level 4 Ki Power).

But I'm much more worried about a "hidden requirement" that's evil by the game rules. That doesn't sit well with me at all, and could cause problems in some games (including, of course, PFS).


Chess Pwn wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

(if you want that free running start you need to pay a ki for it).

This is not the case.
You're right it's not true but it expresses the point by using an exaggerated fictitious example

He's not the only one confused by it, though, so clearly the hyperbole was too subtle for internets. ;)


So, does this mean the Hungry Ghost Monk is now crazy good?


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
So, does this mean the Hungry Ghost Monk is now crazy good?

yes and all other monks that want ki leech is Crazy Evil:)


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
So, does this mean the Hungry Ghost Monk is now crazy good?

If you're saying "does that make it a good archetype?" the answer is, it doesn't work for unchained.

Silver Crusade

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
So, does this mean the Hungry Ghost Monk is now crazy good?

But of course, no Hungry Ghost Unchained Monk without houserules, and <not ever in PFS>.

Unchained p. 8 wrote:
Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace.


I havent seen unchained yet? Does the pummeling qinggong monk look more playable than the chainless one? I am not seeing Lots of celebrating the new monk on the board?


The new monk is a lot more accurate than the old monk. It's a lot worse at will saves. Ki can be used up faster. So it's damage is often better, and you can still get qinggong powers on the unchained.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Can you get an old monk class ability on the unchained monk via a qinggong power? Something like the ability to slow fall without the need for spending ki?

Silver Crusade

Ravingdork wrote:
Can you get an old monk class ability on the unchained monk via a qinggong power? Something like the ability to slow fall without the need for spending ki?

Unclear from a quick look at the text. Unlikely, I'd think, by intent. Not sure the text as written will preclude tiresome internet arguments. Probably in need of an FAQ.

Quote:
Qinggong Power (Su): A monk with this power selects any of the qinggong monk ki powers (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 51) for which he qualifies based on his monk level. A monk can select this ability multiple times. Each time, he must select a different qinggong monk ki power.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So let's FAQ my post then. :D

Silver Crusade

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Kryzbyn wrote:
Umm I don't have any ki people...

"Let's eat, Grandma."

"Let's eat Grandma."

Punctuation is important, which Ravingdork understands and uses appropriately.


Ravingdork wrote:
Can you get an old monk class ability on the unchained monk via a qinggong power? Something like the ability to slow fall without the need for spending ki?

Mark had an answer here

Mark Seifter wrote:

Mark, a question on the Unchained Monk - since one of his options is take any qinggong power that he's high enough level for, could he use that to get the Core Monk versions of certain powers if he wants them? Like Diamond Body?

So he could take the Unchained Diamond Body at 8th, or take the Core Diamond Body (as a qinggong ki power) at 12th?

If you took something as a qinggong power, you would use the version in Unchained if there is one. Then again, this is Unchained, so feel free to unchain that away if you like!


So he says to both questions.

Scarab Sages

Masked Participant wrote:

Nice thread! Thanks!

On a related note, what do you think is the best weapon to have made out of wyrwood for an unchained monk?

Sansetsukon. 1d10 and a 19-20 crit range, the best of any monk weapon. As a plus, Unchained monk is proficient in it and all monk weapons.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Brad McDowell wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
Umm I don't have any ki people...

"Let's eat, Grandma."

"Let's eat Grandma."

Punctuation is important, which Ravingdork understands and uses appropriately.

Stop clubbing, baby seals!


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Brad McDowell wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
Umm I don't have any ki people...

"Let's eat, Grandma."

"Let's eat Grandma."

Punctuation is important, which Ravingdork understands and uses appropriately.

As a writer I certainly try to, but I must admit, I sort of edited the title after Krsybyn pointed it out to me...


So you're going to want a +1 Keen Wyroot weapon, probably one that stores 2 Life Points. That'll cost you about $10,500 and leave you with a 17-20 crit range (assuming you start with a 19-20 weapon). Assuming you spend a Ki point for an extra attack on a Flurry, that nets you a 48.8% chance to crit.

If you combo this the Ring of Ki Mastery your will be able to Flurry every round at a cost of 0 Ki. If possible this item should be crafted as the crafting cost is significantly cheaper (3,420 gp) than the buy cost (10,000 gp).

This combination is purchasable by level 10, but you're investing in 0 defensive items with this plan. Beg one of your party members to craft at least one of these items.

Never mind, the ring reduces the cost of a Ki power to a minimum of 1.

You can also reduce your expenses by picking up a Magus VMC if you can afford the loss of feats in your build. This gives you Arcane Pool class feature at level 3, with your Magus Levels counting as Monk Levels -2. You can now buy an unenchanted Wyroot weapon and by Level 7 use your Arcane Pool to make it a +1 Keen weapon. The synergy here is nice, as you can refresh both your Ki and your Arcane points with your weapon.

Question: Is there any way we could Spell Strike with a Ki Power?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Does wyrwood work if you are performing a coup de grace on a rat or some other innocuous vermine? If so, it could be a cheap source of power for a maleficent monk.


Ravingdork wrote:
Does wyrwood work if you are performing a coup de grace on a rat or some other innocuous vermine? If so, it could be a cheap source of power for a maleficent monk.

The rules only state that when you confirm a critical hit you absorb some of the life energy from the creature hit. The creature is unharmed, but you absorb the life point.

So... pick up the Blade of Mercy trait and buy yourself a critter to act as a punching bag? Evil players could just deal continuous non-lethal damage to refill their Kit after every fight... This could actually make for a pretty fun set of NPC monks to pit players against.

Scarab Sages

If favored class bonus options carry over to the Unchained Monk, Humans, Nagaji, Strix, and Tengu can gain +1/4 Ki per level.


Javaed wrote:
If you combo this the Ring of Ki Mastery your will be able to Flurry every round at a cost of 0 Ki.

"As long as there are at least 2 ki points stored in the ring, the wearer reduces the number of ki points needed to use a ninja trick or ki ability by 1 (minimum 1 ki point)."


Chess Pwn wrote:
Javaed wrote:
If you combo this the Ring of Ki Mastery your will be able to Flurry every round at a cost of 0 Ki.
"As long as there are at least 2 ki points stored in the ring, the wearer reduces the number of ki points needed to use a ninja trick or ki ability by 1 (minimum 1 ki point)."

Oh shoot. I should have read that better. I'll update the post.

In that case, a Wyroot Dan Bong (1d3 19-20x2) that you deal nonlethal damage with to your team-mates would be the cheapest way of restoring Ki.

Liberty's Edge

The Monk in a game I'm currently playing in is abusing having a wyroot-hafted whip to scourge himself for extra ki since he can't take damage from whips anyway

That trick'll work for anyone who finagles an armor or high enough natural armor bonus (not difficult to arrange) and whose GM allows it (exceedingly difficult to arrange). It has some amusing thematic elements too, what with self-flagellation being a fun trope.


I just got the the PDF of the Unchained book and am browsing the monk portion. I have to trust what you guys are saying. But from what I can see, a lot of the monk powers are just amped up version of old monk abilities. Some even have the same KI values. Some are useless depending on the game. Quivering palm is not very useful for a PFS game or most APs, since it requires 16th level (unchained). They amped up Wholeness of Body to 1d8+level. When you are at more than 100 hp, trying to spam your own KI is useless to heal yourself. My friend thought Drunken Master would have been great for this so you could heal yourself by getting drunk!

I am going to need to build a monk to see the choices but right now I don't see the issue that everyone else sees, as it is all situational.


VMC core monk with unchained monk to get more ki.

Scarab Sages

BigDTBone wrote:
VMC core monk with unchained monk to get more ki.

You can't multiclass unchained and chained versions of the same class. They are both monks.


Imbicatus wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
VMC core monk with unchained monk to get more ki.

You can't multiclass unchained and chained versions of the same class. They are both monks.

Is that spelled out clearly in unchained, because they seem pretty seperate to me.


BigDTBone wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
VMC core monk with unchained monk to get more ki.

You can't multiclass unchained and chained versions of the same class. They are both monks.

Is that spelled out clearly in unchained, because they seem pretty seperate to me.

As clearly as anything in a book of optional rules...

it says 'this system is meant to replace normal multiclassing however if you use the two together a VMC class should not be allowed to take actual levels in the class that is being used as the VMC.

So if you use the optional rule - it would be another optional rule to use the old system with it side by side - and of course at that point the GM should feel free to do what they want regarding the mix/match - because once you are using two optional rules to multiclassing... what's a third?


Ckorik wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
VMC core monk with unchained monk to get more ki.

You can't multiclass unchained and chained versions of the same class. They are both monks.

Is that spelled out clearly in unchained, because they seem pretty seperate to me.

As clearly as anything in a book of optional rules...

it says 'this system is meant to replace normal multiclassing however if you use the two together a VMC class should not be allowed to take actual levels in the class that is being used as the VMC.

So if you use the optional rule - it would be another optional rule to use the old system with it side by side - and of course at that point the GM should feel free to do what they want regarding the mix/match - because once you are using two optional rules to multiclassing... what's a third?

I wasn't suggesting that you use the old multiclassing system. I suggest that you build an unchained monk and then VMC a core monk.

So, the question on a rules front is, "using traditional multiclassing, can I take some levels in a core class and then some levels in its unchained counterpart?"

Or even more simply, "Are unchained classes descrete from their core counterparts, or are they intended to fully replace core classes in a given campaign?"


Page 8 of Unchained.

Quote:
These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively)


Javaed wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Does wyrwood work if you are performing a coup de grace on a rat or some other innocuous vermine? If so, it could be a cheap source of power for a maleficent monk.
The rules only state that when you confirm a critical hit you absorb some of the life energy from the creature hit.

Coup De Grace attacks don't need confirming so I'd suggest that doesn't work.


Protoman wrote:

Page 8 of Unchained.

Quote:
These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively)

Well, that settles that.


Javaed wrote:

So you're going to want a +1 Keen Wyroot weapon, probably one that stores 2 Life Points. That'll cost you about $10,500 and leave you with a 17-20 crit range (assuming you start with a 19-20 weapon). Assuming you spend a Ki point for an extra attack on a Flurry, that nets you a 48.8% chance to crit.

If you combo this the Ring of Ki Mastery your will be able to Flurry every round at a cost of 0 Ki. If possible this item should be crafted as the crafting cost is significantly cheaper (3,420 gp) than the buy cost (10,000 gp).

This combination is purchasable by level 10, but you're investing in 0 defensive items with this plan. Beg one of your party members to craft at least one of these items.

Never mind, the ring reduces the cost of a Ki power to a minimum of 1.

You can also reduce your expenses by picking up a Magus VMC if you can afford the loss of feats in your build. This gives you Arcane Pool class feature at level 3, with your Magus Levels counting as Monk Levels -2. You can now buy an unenchanted Wyroot weapon and by Level 7 use your Arcane Pool to make it a +1 Keen weapon. The synergy here is nice, as you can refresh both your Ki and your Arcane points with your weapon.

Question: Is there any way we could Spell Strike with a Ki Power?

don't forget to take ki arcana to nearly "double" your ki pool.

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