Ninja and the Unchained Rogue. rebuild


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I was told that I could not multiclass rogue with Ninja because they were the same thing. If that is so can I rebuild my Ninja to be an Unchained rogue using the rebuild allowed this week with the release of the new book?

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Agent, Washington—Ballard

No, the rule was for rogues to get a limited optional rebuild. The alternate class of ninja was not included in that ruling.

5/5

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

You probably could rebuild a Ninja into the unchained rogue but you would still have to pay the cost. Although it's likely that both classes have synergy so the cost would be reduced a little.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

There's a lot of debate on this in the unchained blog thread. There hasn't been any conclusive response to it that I've seen yet. I'm guessing they will rule no, but we can hope they will allow it.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Until they rule definitively players will have to refrain from playing their ninjas if the wish to have the possibility of a rebuild. Hopefully it gets an answer soon.

Silver Crusade 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

John has ruled definitively, people are at this point just arguing his ruling. John has ruled that ninjas are not eligible for a rebuild.

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Agent, Washington—Ballard

The ninja is a seperate class, as are the cavalier and anti-paladin. They are not archetypes, they are alternate classes. Alternate classes are not part of the base class rule set, but their own. A rebuild to the class they are based on does not qualify as a rebuild for these alternate classes. This has been stated not only in the recent unchained blog, but in the past as well.

1/5 Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo

WiseWolfOfYoitsu wrote:
The ninja is a seperate class, as are the cavalier and anti-paladin. They are not archetypes, they are alternate classes. Alternate classes are not part of the base class rule set, but their own. A rebuild to the class they are based on does not qualify as a rebuild for these alternate classes. This has been stated not only in the recent unchained blog, but in the past as well.

But it's also been stated by Jason Bulmahn and Published in the ACG that these alternate classes are technically archetypes. So if they are technically archetypes then a free rebuild to rogue would cover ninjas. I understand that PFS has to make a ruling, have made their ruling, and will probably stick with it, unless a FAQ goes against it. But Clarifying just what does being an "alternate class" mean seems like a good idea as it seems people are pretty divided on the issue. here is a thread hoping for FAQs for an official clarification.

Sovereign Court 2/5

John Compton wrote:
The ninja is an alternate class and does not interact with the unchained rogue class.

Ninjas do not get the rebuild. If they were intended to, they would have been mentioned in the blog.

The debate over how this ruling fits in with that weird line in the class design section of the ACG is a discussion that will not have an effect on this ruling.

The confusing, contradictory text is a good thing to fix, but the ruling people are asking for in regards to Ninjas in PFS exists already.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

UndeadMitch wrote:
John has ruled definitively, people are at this point just arguing his ruling. John has ruled that ninjas are not eligible for a rebuild.

Did I miss the post? (link please) The only post I saw is that there is no unchained ninja, which isn't what people are asking. The question is whether the free retraining applies to retraining ninja into unchained rogue.

4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

"The ninja is an alternate class and does not interact with the unchained rogue class. There are no "unchained ninjas" in Pathfinder Society Organized Play."

I would assume that "does not interact with the unchained rogue class" includes any free retraining associated with the unchained rogue class.

3/5

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

But also, that quote would seem to imply that you can multiclass unchained Rogue with Ninja.

Because if there's no interaction between the two then there's no restriction on multiclassing them.

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I was told that I could not multiclass into rogue because a Ninja is a subclass of rogue. Now they are saying I can't rebuild my Ninja into an Unchained rogue because they are different classes. Fine if that is their ruling then there should be no reason I can not multiclass into unchained rogue.

Sovereign Court 2/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Except this:

Quote:

Alternate Classes

These are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very
close to established base classes, yet whose required
alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. In
this case, that’s the samurai and the ninja—specifically
Asian-themed classes that have long and unique histories,
as well as great cultural cachet, but which are similar in
concept to the established cavalier and rogue, respectively.
An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save
that a character who takes a level in an alternate class
can never take a level in its associated class
—a samurai
cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa. The antipaladin
from Advanced Player’s Guide is also an alternate class.

So no double dipping, no rebuilding. I feel like this is being made more difficult than it needs to be.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

2 Coppers Worth wrote:
I was told that I could not multiclass into rogue because a Ninja is a subclass of rogue. Now they are saying I can't rebuild my Ninja into an Unchained rogue because they are different classes. Fine if that is their ruling then there should be no reason I can not multiclass into unchained rogue.

The unchained rogue is still the Rogue base class. Just built a bit differently.

Ninja's cannot multiclass with, retrain into, or use the unchained rogue as their chassis.

1/5 Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo

Acedio wrote:

Except this:

Quote:

Alternate Classes

These are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very
close to established base classes, yet whose required
alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. In
this case, that’s the samurai and the ninja—specifically
Asian-themed classes that have long and unique histories,
as well as great cultural cachet, but which are similar in
concept to the established cavalier and rogue, respectively.
An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save
that a character who takes a level in an alternate class
can never take a level in its associated class
—a samurai
cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa. The antipaladin
from Advanced Player’s Guide is also an alternate class.
So no double dipping, no rebuilding. I feel like this is being made more difficult than it needs to be.

Well the one caveat is, "is the unchained rogue the same as the core rogue?" Because under the alternate class rules it says you can't class with your base class, thus disallowing ninja/rogue multiclassing. Now if the unchained is a different class than the core rogue, similar to an alternate class if it's its own class, then there's no rule saying that you can't be an unchained rogue and ninja.

Now if ninja is just "technically an archetype" then you should be able to unchain the ninja but still couldn't multiclass it with the unchained rogue.

shameless link to potential FAQ thread

1/5 Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo

Andrew Christian wrote:
2 Coppers Worth wrote:
I was told that I could not multiclass into rogue because a Ninja is a subclass of rogue. Now they are saying I can't rebuild my Ninja into an Unchained rogue because they are different classes. Fine if that is their ruling then there should be no reason I can not multiclass into unchained rogue.

The unchained rogue is still the Rogue base class. Just built a bit differently.

Ninja's cannot multiclass with, retrain into, or use the unchained rogue as their chassis.

If the unchained rogue is still the rogue base class, then the ninja can be unchained since it's based off the rogue base class.

4/5

When you say "unchain the ninja" do you mean apply the differences between the UC ninja and the core rogue to the unleashed rogue?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Chess Pwn wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
2 Coppers Worth wrote:
I was told that I could not multiclass into rogue because a Ninja is a subclass of rogue. Now they are saying I can't rebuild my Ninja into an Unchained rogue because they are different classes. Fine if that is their ruling then there should be no reason I can not multiclass into unchained rogue.

The unchained rogue is still the Rogue base class. Just built a bit differently.

Ninja's cannot multiclass with, retrain into, or use the unchained rogue as their chassis.

If the unchained rogue is still the rogue base class, then the ninja can be unchained since it's based off the rogue base class.

But not in PFS you can't.

In a home game, your GM can let you do whatever he desires.

Sovereign Court 2/5

There is literally no value in having this conversation here anymore. The rules for PFS are clear. There is no multiclassing between ninja and unchained rogue. There is no unchained ninja. Ninjas do not get rebuilds because they are not the rogue class.

Clearing up the wording in the ACG is a good thing to do. Anything being posted to help promote that change belongs in the existing thread or on those sections of the boards. Wanding the PFS boards for ninja related threads to poke holes is counter productive.

If you would like to switch levels from Ninja into unchained rogue, then the UC retraining rules can still be used.

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I have never said I wanted an "Unchained Ninja," If a Ninja is the same as rogue for the purpose of Multiclassing and archetypes I just want to rebuild my Ninja into an Unchained rogue. I don't see how that is unfair or game breaking.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

2 Coppers Worth wrote:
I have never said I wanted an "Unchained Ninja," If a Ninja is the same as rogue for the purpose of Multiclassing and archetypes I just want to rebuild my Ninja into an Unchained rogue. I don't see how that is unfair or game breaking.

It isn't. But in PFS, its clear, you cannot do this.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
2 Coppers Worth wrote:
I have never said I wanted an "Unchained Ninja," If a Ninja is the same as rogue for the purpose of Multiclassing and archetypes I just want to rebuild my Ninja into an Unchained rogue. I don't see how that is unfair or game breaking.
It isn't. But in PFS, its clear, you cannot do this.

To be clear...you can't do it for free. You can certainly rebuild your Ninja into an Unchained Rogue using the standard retraining rules.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

pH unbalanced wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
2 Coppers Worth wrote:
I have never said I wanted an "Unchained Ninja," If a Ninja is the same as rogue for the purpose of Multiclassing and archetypes I just want to rebuild my Ninja into an Unchained rogue. I don't see how that is unfair or game breaking.
It isn't. But in PFS, its clear, you cannot do this.
To be clear...you can't do it for free. You can certainly rebuild your Ninja into an Unchained Rogue using the standard retraining rules.

True.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:

Well the one caveat is, "is the unchained rogue the same as the core rogue?" Because under the alternate class rules it says you can't class with your base class, thus disallowing ninja/rogue multiclassing. Now if the unchained is a different class than the core rogue, similar to an alternate class if it's its own class, then there's no rule saying that you can't be an unchained rogue and ninja.

Now if ninja is just "technically an archetype" then you should be able to unchain the ninja but still couldn't multiclass it with the unchained rogue.

shameless link to potential FAQ thread

Or they could decide, as they apparently have, that they don't care if the ruling is inconsistent and alternate classes will be a special "both is and is not" case.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Can Ninjas take Rogue Talents from Unchained?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Nefreet wrote:
Can Ninjas take Rogue Talents from Unchained?

Signs point to no

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
2 Coppers Worth wrote:
I have never said I wanted an "Unchained Ninja," If a Ninja is the same as rogue for the purpose of Multiclassing and archetypes I just want to rebuild my Ninja into an Unchained rogue. I don't see how that is unfair or game breaking.

And I don't see the progression of your logic from such flawed premises. The Ninja is NOT the same as the rogue, period.

You want to rebuild your Ninja into an Unchained! Rogue, you can. You just have to pay the same way a sorcerer would if he wanted to convert.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
2 Coppers Worth wrote:
I have never said I wanted an "Unchained Ninja," If a Ninja is the same as rogue for the purpose of Multiclassing and archetypes I just want to rebuild my Ninja into an Unchained rogue. I don't see how that is unfair or game breaking.

And I don't see the progression of your logic from such flawed premises. The Ninja is NOT the same as the rogue, period.

You want to rebuild your Ninja into an Unchained! Rogue, you can. You just have to pay the same way a sorcerer would if he wanted to convert.

The Ninjas is a rogue alternate class.

An alternate class is an archetype (explicitely stated in the apg)

Archetypes do not stop being the base class.

I more than understand WHY they don't want unchained ninjas floating around but the logic for them is perfectly sound and valid. The resulting dissonance from not having them leads to some funny corner cases.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Mike says no. That's really all that matters at this point.

Michael Brock wrote:
You can retrain rogue into unchained rogue or vice versa. You can not retrain ninja into unchained rogue unless you want to use the retraining rules already established.

The Ninja is an alternate rogue. It's an option you can take instead of rogue. Just like the Unchained versions of Core classes will be alternate versions. You can pick either Core or Unchained to make, but never the two shall twine.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I have no horse in this race at all, but I can totally understand why the inconsistency in these rulings is frustrating.

If this back-and-forth further leads to an FAQ or errata stating that the Ninja isn't an Archetype of the Rogue, I can see it becoming even more frustrating.

The Exchange 5/5 ** Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I find it counter intuitive that we should treat alternate classes and being mechanically equal to a regular archetype.

Thing is that the way the alternate classes were introduced and explained i.e. as a special species of archetype might suggest that ninja could be treated the same as 'normal' archetypes, essentially based on a technicality.

However as it turns out they can't.

Seems that alternate class is not exactly the same as other archetypes which makes sense and feels right.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
William Boyle wrote:
I find it counter intuitive that we should treat alternate classes and being mechanically equal to a regular archetype.

Why? You have to realize that as an explanation the above is practically non existant.

Quote:
Thing is that the way the alternate classes were introduced and explained i.e. as a special species of archetype might suggest that ninja could be treated the same as 'normal' archetypes, essentially based on a technicality.

Its not a technicality.

Its specifically called out a being just an archetype
A board post from the red dragon himself confirmed that they're an archetype.

Intuitively it is an archetype. The only difference is whether you list " You start with z ability , replace x ability with Y ability" or you just say "You have abilities a b c.." You would have the exact same thing.

Base class: 12.
Arctype: You have baseclass +2
Alternative class: you have 14.

Quote:
However as it turns out they can't.

It turns out that PFS has a specific house rule about one archetype. That shouldn't be surprising it ha lots of them.

Quote:

Seems that alternate class is not exactly the same as other archetypes which makes sense and feels right.

Its been 4 years and this if the first hiccup in the system. It feels completely wrong to have this try to ret con the rules a they've been all this time.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Its been 4 years and this if the first hiccup in the system. It feels completely wrong to have this try to ret con the rules a they've been all this time.

I suspect it was, in part, the approach, and the attitude given when there wasn't an instant answer.

Approach: Can I retrain my ninja to unchained?

Better approach: Hey, folks, I have a Ninja PC, you know that extreme archetype of Rogue, and I would like to be able to just change him from a Core Rogue (Ninja) to an Unchained Rogue.

Is the proper way to do this by using the free retrain for Core Rogues, or, because this is such a major change to the Rogue, should it be handled differently?

Side note:
How much would it cost to retrain a Ninja to a Core Rogue?

Grand Lodge 4/5

kinevon wrote:

Side note:

How much would it cost to retrain a Ninja to a Core Rogue?

Without a special rule, if Ninja is treated as its own class, it costs 120xyour level GP and 12xyour level PP, as you first have to train out of Ninja (which has no synergies, unless they're listed in a blog post or something) and then into Rogue. If Ninja does have synergies with something, then it goes to 100xyour level GP and 10xyour level PP. Retraining is done one level at a time, and you can't have both Ninja and Rogue levels together at any point.

In other words, you can't, unless you're a multiclass without very many Ninja levels to retrain.

Sovereign Court 2/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Isn't it 5/7PP per level?

Ultimate Campaign, PRD wrote:
In general, it takes 7 days to retrain one level in a class into one level in another class. Some classes are more suited for this kind of retraining, as they have a similar focus or purpose—this is called retraining synergy. If your old class has retraining synergy with your new class, retraining that class level takes only 5 days instead of 7 days. Determine class retraining synergies according to the table below.
PFSGtOP wrote:
When utilizing these retraining rules, you must expend wealth as outlined in the Retraining section of Ultimate Campaign, as well as 1 Prestige Point per day of retraining since time between scenarios is undefined.

So assuming you get 2 PP a scenario, it costs 5/6 of your total fame in PP to do a rebuild to a different class, and it does not cover the cost to change feats gained at odd levels.

I think it would be more than reasonable to assume that Ninja has retraining synergy with Rogue.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Acedio, reread what I posted. Retraining is done one level at a time, and you can't have both Ninja and Rogue levels together at any point. Therefore you have to first train out of Ninja, and then in to Rogue.

Sovereign Court 2/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
Acedio, reread what I posted. Retraining is done one level at a time, and you can't have both Ninja and Rogue levels together at any point. Therefore you have to first train out of Ninja, and then in to Rogue.

It'd probably be appropriate to make it a little cheaper for Ninjas to retrain into Rogue then by allowing a bulk level change.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
Acedio, reread what I posted. Retraining is done one level at a time, and you can't have both Ninja and Rogue levels together at any point. Therefore you have to first train out of Ninja, and then in to Rogue.

It makes NO sense that its harder to retrain from ninja to rogue than wizard to rogue. Ninja and rogue ARE the same class.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas

Jeff Merola wrote:
Acedio, reread what I posted. Retraining is done one level at a time, and you can't have both Ninja and Rogue levels together at any point. Therefore you have to first train out of Ninja, and then in to Rogue.

Jeff:

Can't you do a bulk retraining of all levels at once? That would be the 5 or 7 PP per level level.

Or, and here is where I was aiming, what are the differences between Ninja and Core Rogue in regards to doing retraining as though it were an archetype? And how much would it cost to retrain those alternate archetype (Ninja) abilities back to Core Rogue abilities?

Edit: I don't fully remember Ninja stuff, as I consider any archetype/alternate class that gives up trapfinding to not be worth whatever it gains in exchange.

Sovereign Court 2/5

The rules seem to be written around the notion of doing the class retrain one level at a time.

Quote:
When you retrain a class level, you lose all the benefits of the highest level you have in that class. You immediately select a different class, add a level in that class, and gain all the benefits of that new class level.

Grand Lodge 4/5

There's no bulk retraining option.

As for if it was an archetype, it's much less, but variable depending on the level of the Ninja (because it's based on how many features you have to change), which is why I didn't calculate it.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas

Jeff Merola wrote:

There's no bulk retraining option.

As for if it was an archetype, it's much less, but variable depending on the level of the Ninja (because it's based on how many features you have to change), which is why I didn't calculate it.

So, explain to me how you could pay even the 10 PP per level level of cost? You only get, at best, 6 PP per level.

Grand Lodge 4/5

kinevon wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:

There's no bulk retraining option.

As for if it was an archetype, it's much less, but variable depending on the level of the Ninja (because it's based on how many features you have to change), which is why I didn't calculate it.

So, explain to me how you could pay even the 10 PP per level level of cost? You only get, at best, 6 PP per level.

That's my point. If the Ninja is considered a totally separate class, they cannot retrain into the Rogue, unless Campaign Management makes a ruling that say they can (like allowing a straight Ninja->Rogue retrain).

If it's just an archetype (but not covered by the free rebuild), then here, have a chart listing the various level/cost breakpoints as best as I can figure them:
1st: Free :D
2nd: 15pp (can't retrain)
3rd: 20pp (can't retrain)
6th: 25pp
10th: 30pp
20th: 35pp

Sovereign Court 2/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
As for if it was an archetype, it's much less, but variable depending on the level of the Ninja (because it's based on how many features you have to change), which is why I didn't calculate it.

1st: Poison use (5, free if this is the 1st char level)

2nd: Ki Pool, Ninja Trick (15)
3rd: No Trace (20)
4th: [Ninja Trick (25)]
6th: Light Steps (25) [Ninja Trick (35)]
8th: [Ninja Trick (40)]
10th: Master Tricks (30), [Ninja Trick(50)]
12th: [Ninja Trick (55)]

Note: Unsure if features in [] would need to be paid for again, probably not.

Edit: Was off by 5! Thanks!

Grand Lodge 4/5

Uh, Acedio, Uncanny Dodge is granted to the Rogue at the same level, so you're off by 5. And I'm not sure how "is within the range of possibility" is about as impractical as "cannot be done."

Edit: Yeah, once you're at level 4 or higher, treating Ninja as an archetype to retrain into Rogue costs the same as, or less than, retraining to another class.

Sovereign Court 2/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
And I'm not sure how "is within the range of possibility" is about as impractical as "cannot be done."

Because

Quote:
you're off by 5.

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