Gnome hook-hammer marital: doing the impossible.


Advice


So I am wondering if it is possible to build an effective gnome martial who uses the hook hammer as a double weapon.

I am not looking for an awesome fighter I know all the other races are better at this than poor gnomes but I am wondering if an effective gnome hook hammer artist can be built.

Requirements:
~Effective as the primary martial in a classic gang of four.
~Effective at every level
~Two weapon fighting with the hook hammer as a primary attack option

Would like to see:
~As many Gnome specific feats/traits/etc as possible
~Avoiding dump stats if you can

My ideas
~Exploiting the Hatred trait with the Vast Hatred and Greater Hatred feats to supplement a twf ranger's favored enemy.

~Freebooter ranger and using Bond to the land and Fey magic gnome racial traits to supplement Rangers Favored terrain.

~Going TWF fighter and focusing on as many of the gnome or small size feats as can fit.

So can it be done? Can a Gnome wielding their racial weapon be an effective party member?


I Think i would Pick a blood rager and start out using only one end and having dex only 14 then when you Can get a belt with both str and dex you Can get TWF. With abherrent bloodline you Can have reach by level 4 and with destined bloodline you Can have exelent defense and good offense. I made the destined version and it looks great.
Edit: but a TWF slayer or ranger could also be fine. It Will cost on the defense and offense but it May be good with some skill support.

Dark Archive

I would say a slayer, the passive bonusses help your to-hit massively and the two-weapon fighting combat style helps ignoring the dex requirements, allowing for at least 15 strength at lvl 1. Be sure to pick up Gnome Weapon Focus because it's awesome.

EDIT
Your stats would look something like this:

  • Strength: 14
  • Dexterity: 14
  • Constitution: 16
  • Intelligence: 12
  • Wisdom: 12
  • Charisma:9


So the slayer drops Favored Enemy in favor of the Freebooter's version except it only helps the Salyer and drops all spells for sneak attack.

At least that is what I am seeing is this correct? Sneak attack is a big help for a TWF but is is worth losing spells? Or am I missing something?

Gnome weapon focus is on the list of wanted feats.
Along with Weapon Focus (hook hammer)

Silver Crusade

I like the idea, and Ranger is the way to go. Wands at Level 1, just sayin...
How about:
STR 15
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 08
WIS 13
CHA 11


Poor Wandering One wrote:

So the slayer drops Favored Enemy in favor of the Freebooter's version except it only helps the Salyer and drops all spells for sneak attack.

At least that is what I am seeing is this correct? Sneak attack is a big help for a TWF but is is worth losing spells? Or am I missing something?

Gnome weapon focus is on the list of wanted feats.
Along with Weapon Focus (hook hammer)

It also becomes a lot faster at level 7 (basically allowing you to switch to whichever opponent you are currently facing). Also, if you get a sneak attack, you can do studied target from the get go. So, while the freebooter gave a bonus against a key enemy to everyone, but it can be hard to set up again once that one target is dead, you can instead always get a sizable boost against any target.

Also, it is extremely useful in social situations, since it adds the studied bonus to key social skills too (bluff, sense motive, and later disguise is added.

One of the main side grade archetypes (as in archetypes which are different, but equally valid like freebooter) for the slayer is the Stygian Slayer. This one gets a few spell like abilities (notable invisibility for times/day that scales with level and an upgraded gaseous form for minute/level/day), and it also can use key stealth/illusion magic items like it had a spell list.


You can easily make a decent power-attack fighter (or other full martial) who uses the gnome hook-hammer if you are willing to ditch the TWF part and use it as a single weapon wielded in two-hands, choosing the hook or the hammer end as the situation warrants. I'd go that way if TWFing wasn't essential using a power attack build as my base, TWFing just takes up too many feats to work at lower levels if you want to fit the gnome racial feats in somewhere.


lemeres wrote:


It also becomes a lot faster at level 7 (basically allowing you to switch to whichever opponent you are currently facing). Also, if you get a sneak attack, you can do studied target from the get go. So, while the freebooter gave a bonus against a key enemy to everyone, but it can be hard to set up again once that one target is dead, you can instead always get a sizable boost against any target.

Also, it is extremely useful in social situations, since it adds the studied bonus to key social skills too (bluff, sense motive, and later disguise is added.

One of the main side grade archetypes (as in archetypes which are different, but equally valid like freebooter) for the slayer is the Stygian Slayer. This one gets a few spell like abilities (notable invisibility for times/day that scales with level and an upgraded gaseous form for minute/level/day), and it also can use key stealth/illusion magic items like it had a spell list.

Hmmm what comes faster? Freebooters Bane, move action to grant you and all allies within a 30' burst +1/+1 vs a selected target, Bonus increases by +1 every 5 levels, is a level one ability.

By level seven the Freebooter is granting the party +2/+2 vs the selected target. That party wide bonus is tough to beat. I will happily allow that the Slayer will have better solo numbers but how to factor in the Thief hitting more often, or the Wizard's ray's hitting more and harder, or summoned creatures.

It gets even tougher when you consider Freeboter's bond (4th level, move to grant +2 to hit to any ally flanking with the Freeboter or anyone else effected by this ability.) Now you and your flank partner are each getting +6/+2 untyped against the main target.

Is this something like the fireball vs haste thing? Fireball will let the Wizard do more damage on their own but with a party haste is the more damaging choice.

Eh likely a 6 of one half dozen of the other thing. Slayer far better if you are the sole Martial/semi-martial in a group but Freeboter for groups.


Or perhaps it is just impossible to solve the damage issue w/o sneak attack.

Tried a 7th level build and was looking at 12/7/12 with a +1/+1 hammer before either Freebooter bonus or Power attack, but was only pulling +4/+4/+2 damage.

Best case, both Freebooter bonuses active and power attack looked like +16/+11/+16 with +10/+10/+6 which beats the un-buffed iconic fighter but that is not saying much.

At the same level a Slayer is getting +2/+2 self only as a swift and adding a d6 sneak

so best result assuming otherwise identical build would be +14/+9/+14 and assuming a (4 on SA die) +14/+14/+10 which is a marked improvement.

Hmmmmm I wonder if +1d6 sneak is worth a level delay? Perhaps via Vivisectionist? Hmmm Internal Alchemist/Vivisectionist 1. Freeboter X.
Or Internal Alchemist-Vivisectionist 1 / Freebooter-Skirmisher X to replace spells with tricks.


Would you consider using the Gnome Pincher and making a Dex Weapon Finesse, Improved Weapon Finesse build? Maybe throw some disarm or steal in there for flavor? Just a thought...


Wouldn't this have the same damage problem?

And what is improved weapon finesse? I can't seem to find it in d20pfsrd.


Is dipping for one level to get 1d6 sneak attack worth the loss of one BAB?

The, on average, +3 damage seems worth it with the freebooter getting and granting an extra +2 vs flanked enemies at character level 5. (Sneak attack providing class1/Ranger5)

Add in Freebooters bane and at character level 6 my gnome is granting themselves and their flank partner +3 to hit +1 damage. Add in the normal +2 for flank and TWF power attacking starts looking viable. Heck at +5hit +1damage 1d3 augmented SM/SNA 1 critters could fill open flank spots to decent effect.

Toss in a Bard adding a +2/+2 competence performance and one is looking at +7 to hit +4 Damage. I feel the occasional move action is worth granting a summoned eagle 3 +10/1d4+5 attacks a turn. This makes a first level spell a threat that a CR6 something w/o DR will need to remove.

At least that is what I see.

The freebooter is party dependent, Freebooters bane is just inferior Weapon training with out folks to multiply the effect but is that really a large problem with 4-6 person parties?

Scarab Sages

You can dip snakebite striker brawler 1 to get the sneak attack and not loose the point of BAB.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Don't gnomes get Cha boost? Seems like a paladinX/unchainedrogue4 would work well. Dex to damage plus sneak plus debilitating injury with effortless lace, all of that stacking with the pally damage bonus? And healing and good saves etc.


The cool thing about the Gnome Hooked Hammer is that it is a Double Weapon, a Blunt and Piercing Weapon, and a Trip weapon. Immediately, I am thinking of developing a Gnome Tripping Character.

The problem with that is that you can't Trip anybody more than 2 sizes bigger than you, and Gnomes are Small as it is. My normal answer to size problems with Trip is the Feat Punishing Kick. Punishing Kick sort of works like Stunning Fist except instead of making your opponents Stunned, you make the Prone. Not quite the answer, but often good enough.

Can you use any 3.5 Feats? There is a Feat, Confound the Bigfolk, that lets you get around the Tripping size limit directly.

There is a Pathfinder Teamwork Feat called The Harder they Fall that also lets you get around the size limit on Tripping.

There is a Goblin feat that allows oversize tripping, I think it's called Tangle Feet.

For extra damage, there is Power Attack, of course, but there is also Sneak Attack combined with Dirty Tricks.

So I guess a good next question: what rule sets are allowed and what aren't?


Thought of that but you don't really get anything other than the SA and the avoiding the 13 Int requirement for feats from Striker.

Internal Alchemist-Vivisectionist however brings Mutagen and extracts to the party. Plus Sneak attack and the whole needing to breathe only a couple times a day thing which while not being amazing does seem more Gnomish than just being able to hit things a bit better.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Don't gnomes get Cha boost? Seems like a paladinX/unchainedrogue4 would work well. Dex to damage plus sneak plus debilitating injury with effortless lace, all of that stacking with the pally damage bonus? And healing and good saves etc.

No access to Unchained, sounds really interesting. Though TWF paladins seem even more feat starved than a Ranger.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

The cool thing about the Gnome Hooked Hammer is that it is a Double Weapon, a Blunt and Piercing Weapon, and a Trip weapon. Immediately, I am thinking of developing a Gnome Tripping Character.

The problem with that is that you can't Trip anybody more than 2 sizes bigger than you, and Gnomes are Small as it is. My normal answer to size problems with Trip is the Feat Punishing Kick. Punishing Kick sort of works like Stunning Fist except instead of making your opponents Stunned, you make the Prone. Not quite the answer, but often good enough.

Can you use any 3.5 Feats? There is a Feat, Confound the Bigfolk, that lets you get around the Tripping size limit directly.

There is a Pathfinder Teamwork Feat called The Harder they Fall that also lets you get around the size limit on Tripping.

There is a Goblin feat that allows oversize tripping, I think it's called Tangle Feet.

For extra damage, there is Power Attack, of course, but there is also Sneak Attack combined with Dirty Tricks.

So I guess a good next question: what rule sets are allowed and what aren't?

Re rule sets: Assume no Unchained , no 3.5, and no 3pp.

Re:Punishing Kick: Wow those requirements are steep! It is pretty much a Monk/Brawler only feat and neither of them can flurry with the Hook-Hammer.

Re: Harder they fall. Nice but I really see another player giving up their action to help me attempt a trip. Maybe with a trip focused fighter but that is a big investment for a maneuver that can be ignored by so many monsters. Mind you a Maneuver Monk 1 / Lore Warden-Martial master X could likely make this work even with the -1CMB for a Gnome.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Not a pure martial but I have a gnome dragon disciple who had a STR 20 by level 8. He was built to be a caster who could dive into melee but there are builds now available that can be pretty fun. (Bloodrager if your dm allows the bloodrager bloodlines to qualify for dragon disciple. The skill requirements can be a bit painful but the inherent STR bonuses are quite fun and the image of a gnome who can lift a troll is fun (in my case he has sorcerer levels and keeps ant haul up nearly all the time)

Could be an option to consider if you want to go STR focused - DD is partial BAB but also has great HP and a lot of nifty abilities and bonuses (natural armor, resistances, eventually flight etc).


Was considering Bloodrager. Fey Blooded looked like it could work well for a gnome.

But are there the feat slots to make a decent TWF Bloodrager?


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I had an idea I haven't had time to flush out yet. Instead of two handed fighting, why not use the hooked hammer as a two handed weapon? It takes away the need to pump up dexterity and it helps focus more damage because you are swinging two handed.

One of the strongest benefits of the weapon is the x3/x4 multiplier, which makes getting the Improved Critical feat a top priority. And given that, if any class would be a good dip for this character, I would say it would be wizard (diviner, foresight subschool). It would give you some key spells like Shield, but the ability to reroll a d20 several times a day gives you a better chance of getting that magical critical hit.

Grand Lodge

Does it have to be a gnome? What about a human that uses the hooked hammer, use your bonus feat. I'd recommend silver on the bludgeoning side and maybe cold iron on the piercing side.

Scarab Sages

Human with Adoptive Parentage works better for most builds. You trade the bonus feat for gnome weapon familiarity and gnome languages.

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