David Hebb |
I'm creating a gnome bard who focuses on INT more than anything else, and I'm trying to find a way to help a bit in combat.
Stats:
STR: 5
DEX: 16
CON: 9
INT: 18
WIS: 7
CHA: 16
As you can see I have no strength, so I'm looking for a way to apply my Dex or Int to ranged damage. Any suggestions?
Edit: Reason I'm not going for Investigator is that Investigator has to be 3rd lvl to make all Knowledge Checks untrained.
Gwen Smith |
Well, you can pick up Focused Shot to add Int to ranged damage.
For Dex to ranged damage, I'm not aware of anything outside of Gunslinger or the Bolt Ace archetype.
Can I ask why you have your Int so high? Most of your class features and all of your spells are based off of Charisma, so you might be better off switching the 18 to Charisma and dropping your Int to 16 (especially if you ever plan to use any offensive spells).
The only benefit you get from an 18 Int are more skill points (and you already get 8+Int per level) and higher knowledge skills (you already get to add half your level). If you're trying to max out your knowledge skills, you might consider feats like Breadth of Experience or Scholar.
Alternatively, if you want to do an Int-based bard-like character, you might check out Investigator from the Advanced Class Guide. It's much like a bard, but its class features are all Int-based, so it might be a better fit for what you have in mind.
David Hebb |
Thanks for the advice! The reason I didn't choose Investigator is that I don't have the Advanced Class Guide, so I don't know the stats. Also, what books are the Breadth of Experience, Scholar, and Focused Shot feats from?
Edit: Just checked out Investigator, and it turns out that they can make all Knowledge checks untrained at 3rd level, while the bard can do it at first, so that's a problem
Edit: Nvm, figured my last question out, and I found the Investigator stats
Snowblind |
To my knowledge, there isn't a way to get dex to damage for ranged weapons. I would suggest something like dervish dance and going into melee, but with a 9 con d8 class PC you are going to meet a messy end. You could use a crossbow instead I guess, your damage is going to be almost as terrible as a bow user.
Frankly, I would drop your int massively. It is eating 17 points of your 20 point buy. I know you are focusing on Int, but you get so little out of it that you are crippling your character in order to get such a high number. Drop Int to 15, put your 4th level ability score point into it and you can put strength up to 10 and con to 12 and be a weak but barely serviceable archer. Or put the points into dex and con and use dervish dance. In any case, your 18 int is crippling your martial capabilities.
Alternatively, drop your dex a bit, up your Cha to 18 and use SoL spells instead. You won't be as good as a full caster, but you will contribute far more than plinking away with a crossbow for 1d8. If you absolutely don't want to drop you Int, this would be the best option.
Are you sure you don't want something int based instead. If you want to be the skilliest skill monkey that ever skilled, try an investigator instead. They actually get something out of a high int.
Llyr the Scoundrel |
I might suggest you consider an alternate idea, because as your character is built they'll never be an effective melee fighter. However, it is a manner in which you'll still have influence in combat. Follow these steps:
▪ Switch your ability scores so you have a 16 Int & 18 Cha (bonus spells and for performance skill rolls.)
▪ Take 'Monster Summoning I' as a 1st level spell, and make sure that every level you gain a new spell rank you take the next Monster Summoning spell available.
▪ Buy a light crossbow.
▪ Make your Bardic performance based off of something that doesn't occupy your hands (like singing), so you can shoot your crossbow and maintain your performance in battle.
What your plan will be in most fights you're going to sit back and shoot away with the crossbow. However, when it's a bigger fight you're going to summon up monsters and bolster them (and your party) with Inspire Courage. You'll be able to enjoy the melee aspect through your summoned monster, while adding the odd pot shot with your crossbow.
Your first four feats should include Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot (for your crossbow) as well as Spell Focus (conjuration) & Augment Summoning (to make your summoned monsters better). This is essentially the Bardic version of the Summoner.
David Hebb |
I might suggest you consider an alternate idea, because as your character is built they'll never be an effective melee fighter. However, it is a manner in which you'll still have influence in combat. Follow these steps:
▪ Switch your ability scores so you have a 16 Int & 18 Cha (bonus spells and for performance skill rolls.)
▪ Take 'Monster Summoning I' as a 1st level spell, and make sure that every level you gain a new spell rank you take the next Monster Summoning spell available.
▪ Buy a light crossbow.
▪ Make your Bardic performance based off of something that doesn't occupy your hands (like singing), so you can shoot your crossbow and maintain your performance in battle.
What your plan will be in most fights you're going to sit back and shoot away with the crossbow. However, when it's a bigger fight you're going to summon up monsters and bolster them (and your party) with Inspire Courage. You'll be able to enjoy the melee aspect through your summoned monster, while adding the odd pot shot with your crossbow.
Your first four feats should include Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot (for your crossbow) as well as Spell Focus (conjuration) & Augment Summoning (to make your summoned monsters better). This is essentially the Bardic version of the Summoner.
This is an awesome idea, and I might try it sometime because it sounds fun, but the the problem with that plan for this character is that I really want that 18 Int, because the whole goal for this character is to know almost everything.
Avatar-1 |
Okay, let's take a moment to forget about your dex for a second, because you have a con of 9.
No build option is going to matter with a con of 9 because you'll be dead in no time. As a rule of thumb, you should have a con of 14 ideally, minimum 12.
Maybe you rolled for stats and got forced to keep those?
Gwen Smith |
Thanks for the advice! The reason I didn't choose Investigator is that I don't have the Advanced Class Guide, so I don't know the stats. Also, what books are the Breadth of Experience, Scholar, and Focused Shot feats from?
Edit: Just checked out Investigator, and it turns out that they can make all Knowledge checks untrained at 3rd level, while the bard can do it at first, so that's a problem
Edit: Nvm, figured my last question out, and I found the Investigator stats
Breadth of Experience and Focused Shot are from Advanced Player's Guide. Scholar is from Inner Sea World Guide.
Bonus: Breadth of Experience lets you make knowledge checks untrained, so you might be able to drop the bard aspect altogether: Maybe go with Alchemist or Wizard?
David Hebb |
I figured it out, and am happy with the result. Here's the final result.
Gnome Investigator 1
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Stats:
Str: 5
Dex: 16
Con: 9
Int: 18
Wis: 7
Cha: 16
Ranks in: Bluff, Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Engineering, Local, Nature, Planes, and Religion), Linguistics, Perception, & Perform (Sing).
Languages: Common, Gnome, Sylvan, Draconic, Elven, Orc, Dwarven, Abyssal, & Celestial
Feats: Breadth of Experience
Special Abilities: Gift of Tongues, Magical Linguist, Low-light Vision, Weapon Familiarity, Keen Senses, Academical (Arcana), Alchemy (Su), Inspiration, Trapfinding, & Potion Lore.
In trained knowledge checks, I get a +10. In untrained, I get a +6, except in Arcana, where I get a +8.
I think this character worked out even though I can't have anything to do with combat.
nicholas storm |
Your character was more useful as a bard. As an investigator, human would be better with a stat array more like:
STR 7
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 20
WIS 7
CHA 7
That gives you 12 skill pts per level (13 if you put your fcb into skills). You won't need to worry about untrained knowledge skills as you should have all of them by level 2.
Take the empiricist archtype to allow you to use INT for disable device, perception, sense motive and UMD.
Take student of philosophy:
"You can use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier on Diplomacy checks to persuade others and on Bluff checks to convince others that a lie is true. (This trait does not affect Diplomacy checks to gather information or Bluff checks to feint in combat)."
Deadmanwalking |
Uh...at 20 point-buy those stats are simply wrong. The math just doesn't quite work.
Fencing Grace is also excellent advice. As would be going with a race other than Gnome. Con and Cha are two of the least useful stats for an Investigator. I'd go Elf, for the amazing synergy, especially if you really want Breadth of Experience (which is honestly kinda overkill on an Investigator).
Cap. Darling |
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A key thing to remember when you min max. Is that minimise the unimportant stuff and maximise the important stuff. When looking at the rules. Dont min/max with some RPG idea and then look after rules to support the idea. It is not bad wrong fun it is just very innefficient.
I suggest you think what role the character should be able to play. And then make the character so he can fill that role.
David Hebb |
Uh...at 20 point-buy those stats are simply wrong. The math just doesn't quite work.
Fencing Grace is also excellent advice. As would be going with a race other than Gnome. Con and Cha are two of the least useful stats for an Investigator. I'd go Elf, for the amazing synergy, especially if you really want Breadth of Experience (which is honestly kinda overkill on an Investigator).
I adjusted because I'm a Gnome. Also I chose gnome because of Magical Linguist and Gift of Tongues.
Edit: Nvm, they're wrong... I'll adjust a bit
cavernshark |
While I realize you're looking for ways to add more to combat, melee might not be the best route given how much you seem to be investing in skills.
Consider making a Shaman with the Lore Spirit. You could invest very heavily in your intelligence and wisdom and use hexes instead of physical attacks to help support your party doing things like Evil Eye and Chant to keep enemies debuffed.
The Lore Spirit has some choice hexes to take advantage of your stats as well
Arcane Enlightenment (Su):
Benefit of Wisdom (Ex):
If you stay as a base shaman, you familiar would retain your knowledge skills and would be able to make checks with you.
Alternately, the Speaker for the Past archetype would trade out your familiar to add a few more knowledges as class skills to your list and you could pick some revelations from the Time or Ancestors Mystery. These would use your Wisdom instead of Charisma due to the archetype.
Knowledge of the Ages (Su): (Time)
You can search through time to recall some bit of forgotten lore or information. You can retry any Knowledge skill check you have made within the past minute, gaining an insight bonus on the check equal to your Charisma modifier. You can use this ability a number times per day equal to your Charisma modifier.
Sacred Council (Su): Ancestors
As a move action, you can call upon your ancestors to provide council. This advice grants you a +2 bonus on any one d20 roll. This effect lasts for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Charisma bonus.
Snowblind |
cavernshark wrote:While I realize you're looking for ways to add more to combat, melee might not be the best route given how much you seem to be investing in skills.I was planning on helping at range, but I realize that my character should literally just have nothing to do with combat.
Be aware that you are going to be a drag on the party if you have nothing to do with combat, unless your campaign deviates greatly from what is typical for Paizo APs.
Usually, combat is where players die, and the hardest fights generally cannot be avoided. The time when your companions need you the most is the time when you are most useless right now.
I would try to figure out *some* way of being useful in combat.
Deadmanwalking |
Investigators can be decent at combat with fencing grace. Otherwise, you should go back to being a bard - at least that way you can give the other people inspire courage.
Str-based Investigators are also solid combatants...but nobody with Str 10, Dex 14, Con 10 is gonna be good at combat. If you want to be good and useful in combat, the character needs a rebuild.
nicholas storm |
nicholas storm wrote:Investigators can be decent at combat with fencing grace. Otherwise, you should go back to being a bard - at least that way you can give the other people inspire courage.Str-based Investigators are also solid combatants...but nobody with Str 10, Dex 14, Con 10 is gonna be good at combat. If you want to be good and useful in combat, the character needs a rebuild.
The investigator stat array I listed had a 16DEX and 14CON.
My point is that if you are going to make a character useless in combat, investigator is not a good class. Bard at least can inspire courage and with a good CHA cast some spells.
Cap. Darling |
The OP seem to have decided on his race and focus based on a, little to hasty, look at the rules. I think you(the OP) should envision the character without rules and then we can help make a effective character that can contribute and be what you want. Int, skill guy is not really a niche in most PF games. And remember that not all baddies May respect that you have made a non combat character.