Seeking advice for teaching a new player


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hi everybody. My group and I started playing PF after I picked up the Beginner Box in January this year. We moved to Core after the first session because my players immediately wanted more options. Our group (including me as GM) were all completely new to tabletop but have had the benefit of playing computer RPG's (including D&D ones such as Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate, Temple of Elemental Evil), so everyone quickly picked up on the familiar concepts.

However, I'm planning to take out the BB for another run. Since it's summer soon, I'll have more time to spend with my gf and I want to teach her PF. Since I understand her personality very well (been together 4 years), I'm going to have to do things much differently than with my first group of guy friends. Reasons being:

#1. She's got no idea what tabletop even is. Nor does she play any video games. So I'll need to teach basic concepts such as hitpoints etc.
#2. She loves pop culture, mainly movies and music. She enjoys the Harry Potter and Hobbit movies (closest examples of magic and fantasy adventure that she's enthusiastic about) and always wants to be like the strong female heroines she sees (ie. Hunger Games).
#3. She doesn't like to read, doesn't like math, but is very energetic, playful, and loves to act. Easily excitable.
#4. She's a bit simple with a relatively short attention span. We're both in our 20s, but she's rather childish. I find it endearing though.
#5. She's studying music, specifically voice, in university right now. Passionate about music and songwrites/composes. WILL burst into song spontaneously when prompted. (Would probably like the idea of Bards)

I'm thinking of teaching her in a solo one-on-one session by letting her jump right in with a Pre-gen, while being fast and loose with the rules. Only adding them in slowly at a time. I'll probably give her a GM-PC to hand hold her through the introductory adventure. I know first impressions are super important so I want to grab her attention right away and make it entertaining for her. I also think PF would be a great way to increase her vocabulary and math skills (Edutainment! The horrors!)

(Teaching her solo because my current group includes power gamers/meta-gamers and tacticians, who love to spend an hour strategizing in combat and optimizing all their characters. I know that sort of information overload would bore her)

She's never seen a game played before (as of this moment she doesn't even know of the existence of Pathfinder), but loves to roll the d20. She always gets anxious over little things (how she did on a exam, etc.), so I gave her a d20 and told her the higher the number the better success she has. Obviously she knows it's not true, but loves rolling the dice anyway.

I apologize for the long post, but hopefully the above information can help you understand my questions better:

1) Good way to introduce her to Pathfinder and Roleplaying Games in general?

2) Anyone with experience dealing with players with personalities resembling my gf?

3) Any general suggestions on my planned approach to teaching her the game? Or complete disagreements?

4) Anyone have any experience with One-on-One sessions that can give me some tips?

5) Advice on using GM-PC's? (Never done it before, heard many negative things about them, but I don't think it'd be good idea to let her solo Black Fang's Lair)

6) If I do get her hooked on PF, would it even be possible to get her into my main group? (In addition to BB/Core differences, the play-styles seem too different and I don't want to be "That GM") Should I just start a new group on the side with more like-minded casual players instead?

7) Any and all general advice is appreciated.

Thanks for taking your time reading this, I look forward for any responses.


Yeah no, Pathfinder is not the game for someone who doesn't like to read or do math.

Suggestion: Maybe have her just voice NPCs and monsters and such instead of making a character


Opuk0 wrote:

Yeah no, Pathfinder is not the game for someone who doesn't like to read or do math.

Suggestion: Maybe have her just voice NPCs and monsters and such instead of making a character

That's actually a pretty good suggestion. I'll consider it. I also planned to let her play a pre-gen first, and if she enjoys the game and wants to make her own character, I'll do all the crunch and she can do the fluff.

I was hoping to use PF as a platform to subtly encourage her to improve her reading and math skills. She's obviously capable of it, I just think it's a matter of context. I'm hoping that deciding how hard you hit the ugly goblin with a 2d6 might not seem like math. PF math doesn't go beyond simple arithmetic, which she has no problem with. Still going to let her try as a player first and gauge her reaction.

Thanks for the reply though, much appreciated.


I don't mean to be negative, but perhaps Pathfinder isn't the game for your girlfriend. At least not the first game, anyway. Given how rules-heavy it often is, casual players and those new to RPGs can get lost pretty easily. Starting off with Roleplaying boardgames like Talisman might be a better option, moving on to more complex games if she enjoys that.

The best way to get around this might be to run something like "We be Goblins!" (A free to download short module). Or possibly to start on a simpler or cut-down Core ruleset and introduce elements gradually.


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While it is very true that PF is very much a math and reading heavy game, I believe such things can be taught. The key IMO is only expose her to things she absolutely needs to understand to play her character. Also go slow, one concept at a time. I would strongly suggest that she play to her strength, that is music as it seems. A bard would suit her very well it seems. One on one practice time seems to be a good idea as well. I suspect that being around other very experienced players may make her feel like she has an insurmountable learning curve, which is not true. Though, if one of your players happens to be good at teaching others how to play the game, perhaps pair her up with him/her and run a two player one GM game for a while. I fully believe that there is no such thing as a player who can't learn to play the game well if they have the desire to do so. I have taught many players over my 26 years of GMing, so I am happy to further offer suggestions on a case by case basis.


Corvino wrote:

I don't mean to be negative, but perhaps Pathfinder isn't the game for your girlfriend. At least not the first game, anyway. Given how rules-heavy it often is, casual players and those new to RPGs can get lost pretty easily. Starting off with Roleplaying boardgames like Talisman might be a better option, moving on to more complex games if she enjoys that.

The best way to get around this might be to run something like "We be Goblins!" (A free to download short module). Or possibly to start on a simpler or cut-down Core ruleset and introduce elements gradually.

I definitely agree that PF is rules heavy. That's why I'm thinking of running a SIMPLIFIED version of an already SIMPLIFIED Beginner Box session first. I'll probably look for modules that are more RP heavy, and obviously let her play a martial character first.

GM_Beernorg wrote:
While it is very true that PF is very much a math and reading heavy game, I believe such things can be taught. The key IMO is only expose her to things she absolutely needs to understand to play her character. Also go slow, one concept at a time. I would strongly suggest that she play to her strength, that is music as it seems. A bard would suit her very well it seems. One on one practice time seems to be a good idea as well. I suspect that being around other very experienced players may make her feel like she has an insurmountable learning curve, which is not true. Though, if one of your players happens to be good at teaching others how to play the game, perhaps pair her up with him/her and run a two player one GM game for a while. I fully believe that there is no such thing as a player who can't learn to play the game well if they have the desire to do so. I have taught many players over my 26 years of GMing, so I am happy to further offer suggestions on a case by case basis.

That's exactly how I feel. I've got an apt for making complicated concepts easy to understand. I might have described her as too simple, but that's probably from my personal bias. She's actually average in terms of intelligence, I'm just the one more into intellectual pursuits. I've seen a youtube video of a father teaching his 7 year old pathfinder. If that's possible, I'm pretty confident I can teach her too, I just have to do it the correct way. I still remember the number one rule as a GM "If your players are having fun, you're doing it right". That's what I really want it to be about.

Thank you both of you for your replies and suggestions.


Buy the PDF of Crypt of the Everflame and run it for her. It's the perfect introduction to the Pathfinder game as well as the setting of Golarion.

You may want to invest in Hero Lab to help making characters much much easier. Be warned, it is a substantial investment to get started, but well worth it in the long run.


I studied music and earned a degree, but that has never inclined me towards bard (I have played a couple, but thats just me making the rounds). I idea of a bard and actually playing one are two different things. I recommend to her either an oracle (melee + personal buffs) or a barbarian (with a huge f!!#ing sword).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Stick with a simple PC. I would not suggest a Bard. They are complicated to play for someone with no experience. Have her play a strong female type but be a fighter to begin. I would have her create her character to begin, part of the learning curve. She can always add a fun background or even add her own "theme" song for her character. Ask her how she would dress and what she would look like. Before running her through BB scenario, just do an encounter. First do a skill check that involves finding info from an old man (knowledge or diplomacy) that lead her on a quest to find sword in the stone, along the way have some sort of hazard like climbing across a tree trunk over a ravine (acrobatics) and then she finds the sword (make a strength check to pull it from a rock). She can then fight a goblin, who is hiding in a grove of trees (stealth vs perception) using the sword. Simple enough to demonstrate some basics, entertaining enough if you do some goofy things with the goblin and then jazz it up with some creative descriptions.


Brother Fen wrote:

Buy the PDF of Crypt of the Everflame and run it for her. It's the perfect introduction to the Pathfinder game as well as the setting of Golarion.

You may want to invest in Hero Lab to help making characters much much easier. Be warned, it is a substantial investment to get started, but well worth it in the long run.

Definitely will consider getting HerosLab if she wants more after the beginner box adventure. I think I'll download the freebie Starter Edition for now. I'm currently using PC Gen myself right now.

I actually played Crypt of the Everflame as a player a couple months ago. Very combat heavy. I'm going to see how combat goes, that's the part I'm most concerned about. But the simplified Beginner Box combat rules seem to be adequate. I'll have to improvise a lot of things, but that's one of my strengths. I'll ask her what her character would do and find an appropriate action/feat/skill for it, and slowly introduce concepts like that. I'll adapt as I go along.

If she likes what she sees in the core book, I think I'm going to filter through everything and distill it into bite sized pieces.

Thanks again for your suggestion Brother Fen.


Mitch Da Witch wrote:
Stick with a simple PC. I would not suggest a Bard. They are complicated to play for someone with no experience. Have her play a strong female type but be a fighter to begin. I would have her create her character to begin, part of the learning curve. She can always add a fun background or even add her own "theme" song for her character. Ask her how she would dress and what she would look like. Before running her through BB scenario, just do an encounter. First do a skill check that involves finding info from an old man (knowledge or diplomacy) that lead her on a quest to find sword in the stone, along the way have some sort of hazard like climbing across a tree trunk over a ravine (acrobatics) and then she finds the sword (make a strength check to pull it from a rock). She can then fight a goblin, who is hiding in a grove of trees (stealth vs perception) using the sword. Simple enough to demonstrate some basics, entertaining enough if you do some goofy things with the goblin and then jazz it up with some creative descriptions.

That's a great idea! I think I might just steal your "adventure" if you don't mind. I'll do a little prequel narrative like you said.

Great practical advice Mitch, thanks!


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Beginning Box is a good place to start. You might make up a bard for her using the beginner box rules.

You can also check out the Kids Track (search the Paizo site). This has some suggestions on how to run games for people with lower reading and/or math skill levels. There are a ton of people who play with kids as young as 6 or 7, and in PFS, we a 9-year-old GM who just awesome. Never assume someone can't do something until you give them the opportunity.

As far as the "not liking reading" and "not liking math", issue goes: I have usually found that students who don't like reading or math have not found anything that makes the reading or math worthwhile to them. Tens of thousands of dyslexic, low-reading skill, "I hate reading" kids will devour comic books, the Harry Potter series, and the Percy Jackson books, because they finally had a story that appeals to them enough to overcome their negative attitude toward reading. Likewise, people who hate math will often do fine with math in games: statistics of their favorite sports teams, cards, dice, etc. Most often, the issue is they don't want to do these things, not that they can't.

Keep the math to the minimum, and consider getting a program like Hero Lab to help out until she gets used to the math. The Beginner Box should be in the trial of Hero Lab, so you can see how she likes it before you buy it. (There are other character management tools, so you can search for those if no one else has a good suggestion for one.)

As far as soloing goes: you can start with soloing, but if she is more of a social person, getting a group together might be better. A lightweight, social game that isn't overly concerned with staying on track or tight rules restrictions might be the way to go, but you'll need to make that call after some demo sessions. Also, see if she's more into long term character development or one-off, "done that want to try something else" episodic adventures, and adjust accordingly.

Most of all, talk to her. Find out whether she's having fun and why/why not. Adjust the game as you go.


Gwen Smith wrote:

Beginning Box is a good place to start. You might make up a bard for her using the beginner box rules.

You can also check out the Kids Track (search the Paizo site). This has some suggestions on how to run games for people with lower reading and/or math skill levels. There are a ton of people who play with kids as young as 6 or 7, and in PFS, we a 9-year-old GM who just awesome. Never assume someone can't do something until you give them the opportunity.

As far as the "not liking reading" and "not liking math", issue goes: I have usually found that students who don't like reading or math have not found anything that makes the reading or math worthwhile to them. Tens of thousands of dyslexic, low-reading skill, "I hate reading" kids will devour comic books, the Harry Potter series, and the Percy Jackson books, because they finally had a story that appeals to them enough to overcome their negative attitude toward reading. Likewise, people who hate math will often do fine with math in games: statistics of their favorite sports teams, cards, dice, etc. Most often, the issue is they don't want to do these things, not that they can't.

Keep the math to the minimum, and consider getting a program like Hero Lab to help out until she gets used to the math. The Beginner Box should be in the trial of Hero Lab, so you can see how she likes it before you buy it. (There are other character management tools, so you can search for those if no one else has a good suggestion for one.)

As far as soloing goes: you can start with soloing, but if she is more of a social person, getting a group together might be better. A lightweight, social game that isn't overly concerned with staying on track or tight rules restrictions might be the way to go, but you'll need to make that call after some demo sessions. Also, see if she's more into long term character development or one-off, "done that want to try something else" episodic adventures, and adjust accordingly.

Most of all, talk to her. Find out whether she's having fun...

Thank you for the excellent and in-depth reply!

Agree with your analysis on the general dislike of reading/math. I think people just need to find something that catches their interests.

Yeah she's definitely a social person, so I might need to find some other players to join in. I might need to teach some more new players or drag in one of my more RP-friendly players later on.

Thanks for the great reply. I think I'll start scheduling a date on when to hold the tutorial session.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The ideal situation in my mind, for introducing a new player to the game isn't one on one.

My preference would be to get a few knowledgable players (probably just 2) and recruit them with the specific intent of teaching the new player. There are several aspects of the game (teamwork, roleplay, character development) that really require additional people.

Next, for someone who doesn't like to read, or do math, dont hand her the rulebooks. In fact it would be better if she never see's them. Or at least dont have them used at the table. If you need reference material, use a tablet connected to the internet or a phone or something. Those big books can be scary to someone who DOES like to read. Let alone someone not very interested.

The truth is, no one needs to know those things to play. They only need to know how to interpret their character sheet. Hand her 2 pages, and explain that to her and thats all.

If she wants to play a caster, no problem, just make sure its a spontaneous caster with a spells known list. Use the spell card generator from thegm.org to print out ONLY what she needs, which for a 1st level character is pretty much one more sheet of paper.

Make sure the co-teaching players play relatively simple concepts (no crazy mix and match characters, but basic archetypical stuff).

Talk to her ahead of time and figure out what kind of character she wants to play, then make it for her. If thats a bard, fantastic, if its a sorceress, great, whatever it is, at least to start, keep her out of the creation process.

After she plays a bit, and either decides she likes the game or doesn't you can slowly introduce making character choices as she levels up. Before you know it if all goes well, she might very well be pouring through rulebooks of her own volition (I have 2 friends that dont like reading that pour through rulebooks to create character and adventures).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think she'll do fine, and wouldn't worry too much about the rules. You might try her out with We be goblins, allowing her to experience the game without the mechanics getting in the way. It is a somewhat short adventure, which will allow her the opportunity to experience the game in a shorter session prior to having to worry about rules getting in the way. My current group were all new to RPG and have done wonderful. The group consists of my wife and 3 children. The youngest started when she was 8, so I wouldn't worry too much about the math and reading. Make the game fun, if she will not mesh well with your current group then start a different group for her.


WhatAShame wrote:
Brother Fen wrote:

Buy the PDF of Crypt of the Everflame and run it for her. It's the perfect introduction to the Pathfinder game as well as the setting of Golarion.

You may want to invest in Hero Lab to help making characters much much easier. Be warned, it is a substantial investment to get started, but well worth it in the long run.

Definitely will consider getting HerosLab if she wants more after the beginner box adventure. I think I'll download the freebie Starter Edition for now. I'm currently using PC Gen myself right now.

I actually played Crypt of the Everflame as a player a couple months ago. Very combat heavy. I'm going to see how combat goes, that's the part I'm most concerned about. But the simplified Beginner Box combat rules seem to be adequate. I'll have to improvise a lot of things, but that's one of my strengths. I'll ask her what her character would do and find an appropriate action/feat/skill for it, and slowly introduce concepts like that. I'll adapt as I go along.

If she likes what she sees in the core book, I think I'm going to filter through everything and distill it into bite sized pieces.

Thanks again for your suggestion Brother Fen.

Are you running games for her as part of a group or just for her by herself? I've run Crypt of the Everflame a couple times and it's very adaptable to any style of play or party needs. I suggest it as a starter module because Pathfinder lead designer, Jason Bulhman, wrote and designed the adventure to literally be an introduction to Pathfinder game mechanics.

If she is playing solo, you can give her an NPC companion or two based on her class. I always have two NPCs from the town of Kassen that participate in the Everflame ritual. One is always a bully and causes trouble while the other helps out. If she needs a cleric, then have a Kyra NPC sent in from the Pathfinder Society to take part in the ritual as well.

Most of all, have fun!!!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Ranger is a really great intro class for new players. It introduces things slowly, like bonus feats, lots of great skills (Knowledge nature, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival), spells, animal companions, etc.

I also like the idea of having a couple other friends playing with her. At least for me, the most fun part of RPGs is teamwork and interaction between players.

If she likes to sing or whatever, spend a trait or two to get Perform and/or Diplomacy.

And while I think Ranger is the best intro class, maybe ask her some sample questions to decide what she will want to do as her character. For example, as her if her character is about to fight, does she use a weapon or spell? A giant axe or bow & arrow? Charm or fireball? Hide and snipe? Talk before attacking? Charming or intimidating?

There might even be an online guide or something like that.


Lot's of great suggestions and tips.

To Kolokotroni:I'm definitely hiding the Core rules for now. She's an auditory and hands-on learner, so hearing me explain and act out concepts for her might be better than going *point to a picture and chart* "Here's a ranger, This is a bard"

Planning to keep the intro session super simple and teaching her information on a need-to-know basis instead of all at once.

To Anthony Abbott: Thanks for the ideas and encouragement. If you can give me any advice on the approach you did for introducing the game, it'd be much appreciated. Thanks again!

To Brother Fen: I'm planning to just start off with an introductory session with some of the ideas the other posters have given me. But I'd definitely like to run Crypt of the Everflame for her eventually to give her a taste of a a dungeon crawler. I'll probably grab my most RP-friendly player from my core group to join so she can learn teamwork.

To SmiloDan: Ranger seems like a brilliant idea, I think she'd like the idea of archery more than swinging a sword.I also think idea of having an animal companion pet might appeal to her way more than magic. I think I'll work with her and find out what character concepts she'd like even before the session.

Thanks everyone for the great replies!

PS. As stated before I've been subtly introducing Pathfinder concepts to her lately without her knowing, and she's been quite susceptible. For example: explaining Wisdom and how it's different than Intelligence. (She does a lot of things without thinking through the consequences and beats herself up for being stupid, I told her that she's not stupid and just lacks wisdom.) She also enjoys the "explanations" I give her about her favourite movie characters. She doesn't know it yet, but I've already taught her the Alignment system. :P


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Focus more on the story, than the mechanics of the game. Don't worry about stuff like trip, disarm or sunder for a while. Make her character with her without offering too many decisions at first. I she wants to swing a sword make a fighter and choose her feets for her. No archtypes to start. She may never get to the point that she wants to make a character on her own, and that is perfectly fine. My youngest has gamed for 5 years now, and still wants to just tell me the character idea and have me worry about the details when creating a character. My middle child has taken an active interest and has absorbed everything in every book she can get hold of. Give her the opportunity to interact with the environment without putting her on the spot. Have a friend who tried to introduce his wife into gaming, but failed. He basically stressed her out with forcing her to roleplay too much too soon. Make the game fun first and foremost, too many DM's stress over the rules and forget the purpose of this hobby.

Scarab Sages

Okay, I'm going to give you the low down, as a teacher & musician:

Bard sounds fun, but the truth is that the class is really complicated. You've got way to much to deal with.

If she's new to roleplaying games completely, you should be prepared to introduce her to fundamental mechanics, and keep things at a low level to keep math simple. Whatever you do, don't give her a spellcasting class or a class with summons/animal companions. This is a LOT to process, especially as a new player. New players make good Rogues & Fighters, but they may require help building them in order to make them function well, especially in the case of the Rogue.

Early games should have simple, safe combat, and require relatively little mechanical knowledge. It's for this reason that I suggest Rogue. It has lots of skills to make sure you always feel useful, and Sneak Attack directly implies tactical thinking without forcing you to understand lots of different abilities and power descriptions.

I have a player in my group that doesn't like math, doesn't like prep, and doesn't even like making her own character sheets, but she LOVES roleplaying. I usually end up making and advancing her character, and she plays simply enough that she doesn't need to know mechanics that well (Her characters so far have been "SMITE" and "CHARGE" respectively. They did little else in combat). Keep in mind that social, RP-focused players can be a HUGE boon to the group's fun, but that they also typically require a bit more maintenance on the part of the DM as far as character abilities are concerned.

Again, keep her abilities simple so she has a clear understanding of what she can do, and keep it organized so she can find things easily. If you can do that, you're set. Just let her roleplay, and keep things moving and fun.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I've played with a rules-lite player married to a very experience player, and the rules-lite player LOVED archery. Also, archery is actually a lot easier to learn than melee.

A sniping rogue or ranger or fighter would be fun and easy. I'm leaning towards ranger or rogue because they get a lot of skills, and one of the best things about new players is that they try to do lots and lots of fun and different things. Mostly because they don't know how complicated the rules can be.

But remember to let her play a kickass sorcerer or serene cleric or treehugging druid or psychotic barbarian or whatever she wants to play.

5th Edition is real rules-lite and probably a better introduction to RPGs, but Pathfinder really rewards rules mastery.


If your willing you might just have her describe the character she wants to play then generate it all yourself. Give her a copy of her character sheet if she is interested but then give her another sheet that has the bonuses and actions she will probably take all laid out in front of her.

Ex: make a slayer with all the tricks then give her a sheet that says

In COMBAT

Options 1: Move 6 squares attack once

Option 2: Move 1 square attack twice.

Option 3: Move 12 squares

Option 4: Move 6 squares and study target

Option 5: Study target and attack once

To Attack roll 1d20+X, if you hit (GM will tell you) then you roll 1d8+Y
-Tell her when she threatens a crit and what to do then.
-Tell her when she gets bonus sneak attack damage.
-Add in attack and damage bonuses when appropriate

OUTSIDE OF COMBAT
-To scare people roll 1d20+X
-To make people like you roll 1d20+X
-To lie to someone roll 1d20+X
-To play your lute roll 1d20+X
-To sneak past people roll 1d20+X
-To climb a wall roll roll 1d20+X
-etc.


Thanks again everyone for all the great suggestions.

To Anthony Abbott: Thanks again for sharing your personal experience. I definitely have to keep it simple with the options. Now that I think about it, her "simpleness" is more of a childlike innocence. Her view of the world is quite black and white, Good Guys vs Bad Guys etc. She can be serious at school or work, but reverts to her self-proclaimed "inner child" when she's with me. That's why I think teaching her the game as I would to a child would be the smartest way to go about it. I'll focus on simplicity + fun.

To Davor: I agree, I'm going to hold off even introducing the bard till after she's got a grasp of how the game works. I think you're correct that starting her off with a rogue might be the safest bet. She's a very animated and enthusiastic person, always likes to "re-enact" action scenes from a movie she's just watched. She can talk for hours about a movie and has frequently told me how she wishes she could be someone else for a day.(Part of the reasons why I think RPGs would be a great idea for her)

To SmiloDan: I had another subtle conversation with her, asking what she thinks is cooler, swinging a sword or using a bow. After watching so many movies with Female bow users, she's convinced that archery is a "safer" way to kick ass than charging into melee.

I was a huge fan of D&D before Pathfinder came out, but there's something about the way Paizo presents their product that captivates me a lot more. So unfortunately, I didn't look too deep into 5E since I'm still happy with the 3.x/PF system. I'll give it another look and see if I can incorporate some of their ideas into my games. (I do like the advantage/disadvantage system they developed)

To Bardarok: That's a very good idea and a sheet with a list of things she can do would be great help in combat. I want to keep things simple and let her get really comfortable with just the d20 first before adding a lot of other shenanigans. I think once she understands d20 + modifiers is basically the core of the game, I can move on to more specifics.

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