What spells, magical items or class abilities are the various uses of Hero Points equivalent to?


Advice


Hello,

Our group gave the optional Hero Point rules a chance, & after a year of play they're 'in to stay.' But we haven't included all of the uses yet, so I was curious if anyone had thoughts on their equivalent power compared to existing in-game class abilities, spells, or magic items.

Act Out of Turn: You can spend a hero point to take your turn immediately. Treat this as a readied action, moving your initiative to just before the currently acting creature. You may only take a move or a standard action on this turn.

Bonus: If used before a roll is made, a hero point grants you a +8 luck bonus to any one d20 roll. If used after a roll is made, this bonus is reduced to +4. You can use a hero point to grant this bonus to another character, as long as you are in the same location and your character can reasonably affect the outcome of the roll (such as distracting a monster, shouting words of encouragement, or otherwise aiding another with the check). Hero points spent to aid another character grant only half the listed bonus (+4 before the roll, +2 after the roll).

Extra Action: You can spend a hero point on your turn to gain an additional standard or move action this turn.

Inspiration: If you feel stuck at one point in the adventure, you can spend a hero point and petition the GM for a hint about what to do next. If the GM feels that there is no information to be gained, the hero point is not spent.

Recall: You can spend a hero point to recall a spell you have already cast or to gain another use of a special ability that is otherwise limited. This should only be used on spells and abilities possessed by your character that recharge on a daily basis.

Reroll: You may spend a hero point to reroll any one d20 roll you just made. You must take the results of the second roll, even if it is worse.

Special: You can petition the GM to allow a hero point to be used to attempt nearly anything that would normally be almost impossible. Such uses are not guaranteed and should be considered carefully by the GM. Possibilities include casting a single spell that is one level higher than you could normally cast (or a 1st-level spell if you are not a spellcaster), making an attack that blinds a foe or bypasses its damage reduction entirely, or attempting to use Diplomacy to convince a raging dragon to give up its attack. Regardless of the desired action, the attempt should be accompanied by a difficult check or penalty on the attack roll. No additional hero points may be spent on such an attempt, either by the character or her allies.

Cheat Death: A character can spend 2 hero points to cheat death. How this plays out is up to the GM, but generally the character is left alive, with negative hit points but stable. For example, a character is about to be slain by a critical hit from an arrow. If the character spends 2 hero points, the GM decides that the arrow pierced the character’s holy symbol, reducing the damage enough to prevent him from being killed, and that he made his stabilization roll at the end of his turn. Cheating death is the only way for a character to spend more than 1 hero point in a turn. The character can spend hero points in this way to prevent the death of a familiar, animal companion, eidolon, or special mount, but not another character or NPC.

I'm particularly wondering about 'Act Out of Turn' & 'Recall' as those are 2 that we don't currently use & the DM is on the fence about. 'Cheat Death' came out in our last gaming session, so curious about its equivalencies.

Any thoughts about what these are comparable to?


The hero point system is very powerful. We played it for 3 years and finally decided to abandon it. In retrospect, I would say that it all dépends on often the GM gives back HP.

Act out of turn can be a life saver. It happen a few times that one character was about to be killed and someone would act in order to prevent such death (a well placed heal, a wall of ofrce cast at the proper time, preventing a coup de grace, atc)(

Extra action was probably the most used: this can be very powerful to spell casters as they suddently have the ability to cast 3 spells per round.

Finally: the bonus to save was also used as most a sthe extra action and made it very difficult for the gm to ever to really nasty spells on us (such as dominate, phantasmal killer and other Deadly spells like that)

The others were used sparingly, but came in handy once in a while....

The fact that we had a bard (with effect such as saving finale and other boosts) combined with the HP system made it absolutely useless for the gM to try to do any spell on us beside damaging spells which most character can handle...

Grand Lodge

Disclaimer, I have never used any of the hero point rules.

That said, these rules seem VERY similar to Mythic rules.

The bonus to the roll, recalling spells (mythic is cast a spell you do not even know, at a higher CL, but still similar), Cheat death/hard to kill in mythic.

Not the same, but similar, and the effects were awesome in the game I ran.


We use the hero point rules but our gm only gives us points on level up. She also does not allow hero point items or feats. Only once or twice has she ever awarded us a hero point for actions in game.

She also uses the limit storing a max of 3 at one time. In general in our game they get used only for the most serious of situations or for the 2 point get out of jail free.

As such they have never really caused ANY sort of balance issues in our game but have almost always been extremely useful when they have been used.

I would think all of the uses would be fine as long as the GM is not handing out points like candy for actions taken during play. Limiting how many you can store at one time also means that if your leveling fast they will tend to get used rather than wasted.


Cuttler wrote:
Extra action was probably the most used: this can be very powerful to spell casters as they suddently have the ability to cast 3 spells per round.

Note: This is not actually allowed by RAW. You're allowed one spell a round. An extra standard action does not get around this unless your DM specifically rules it that way.

Quote:
A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

Source

Speaking as someone who has hero points for a long time I like them. They put a little control in the hands of the players and long as you limit them in some manners, they can be a very fun addition.

I tend to hand mine out only on levelup but I don't have a limit of 3 per character either. I've had some characters bank up to 10 or so at a time.


Aleron wrote:
Cuttler wrote:
Extra action was probably the most used: this can be very powerful to spell casters as they suddently have the ability to cast 3 spells per round.

Note: This is not actually allowed by RAW. You're allowed one spell a round. An extra standard action does not get around this unless your DM specifically rules it that way.

Quote:
A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

Source

Speaking as someone who has hero points for a long time I like them. They put a little control in the hands of the players and long as you limit them in some manners, they can be a very fun addition.

I tend to hand mine out only on levelup but I don't have a limit of 3 per character either. I've had some characters bank up to 10 or so at a time.

Does the "normal limit" of one spell per round actually exist anywhere else in the rules. That reads like it is referring to another piece of rules text.

If the rule doesn't exist, then I suspect that is a copy paste error from 3.5, and as such you should expect table variation on whether it's enforced (because there is no such "1 round limit in the rules", a GM would be well within their rights to say that text is meaningless by RAW).


I can't find it right now, but it is actually the opposite. Things like haste did give you a second spell in 3.x but that was taken away in PF.
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Like most things, the hero point system can be stupidly powerful or not so much depending upon how the GM and players apply it.

We had a group that was kinda new to the system, GM that liked upping the lethality of the encounters, moderately slow advancement, and GM didn't give out new points very often. (Usually had to be something wildly heroic that should have gotten you killed.)

In that game, the hero points were often used up saving from deadly situations. Failed save, tried on the necklace of strangulation, fell off the cliff, etc...

I heard of another group that was using fast advancement, the encounters were not that tough, the GM gave out points for almost every 'kool' action. They had points to spare and would burn them on a simple knowledge check to pickup background information.

Note: Sometime in a group that uses them well, I want to try a character that really specializes in them. Takes all the hero point feats, the human trait for hero points, as many of the spells as possible, and getting/making the magic items when possible.
Average Human Bob the Lucky.


There is no actual rules limiting the 1 spell per round other than in the swift action / quickened spell section.

There has been a lot of threads debating that with people arguing on both sides. So technically you have:
1) the fact that it is written in the swift spell section is enough and RAW.
2) the limit refers to the normal limit imposed by the fact that you "normally" have only one standard action per round and thus can only can cast one spell per round.

I don't believe that we should argue this here has it will derail the thread, but knowing that both interpretations exist, I would recommend the OP to discuss with his GM to evaluate if it is possible or not.

In our group, we chose the second interpretation. But, since our GM was giving way too many Hero Points (we always had a limit of 3, but was giving one every big fight), there were a lot of fights with 2 or 3 spells per round from one character, which I think was really too powerful at high level(where spellcasters are already powerful).

so just a warning. If the GM gives a very limited amount of HP like Gilfalas, then I don't think it will be a big issue for the overall game balance....


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Though I don't recall where, I'm pretty certain there is a rule somewhere specifically stating you only get one spell plus one quickened spell in a round and that's it.

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