Entering a sealed tomb via Phase Door


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Dark Archive

(or teleporting in maybe)

Would there be any oxygen in there?

All those decomposing bodies use up oxygen as they decompose, but apparently when tutankhamun's tomb was opened by Howard Carter he lit a match at the entrance and discovered that there was air in there.

Any views?

Richard


I remember reading oozes need oxygen (by the rules), so if your dungeon has oozes, you must have an oxygen source of some kind.

Absolutely sealed, sure, make it have no oxygen. Kill those that teleport in, laugh.

Dark Archive

I know that decomposing corpses use oxygen, presumably from the bacteria, but after that I'm not sure at what rate the oxygen would disappear.

Say 50 corpses are placed in an area about 50' cubed sealed for 50 years. Will all the oxygen have gone?

Richard


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I really don't understand the line of questioning here.

"Okay, so, I need to chase down these facts, oxygen depletion rates in a sealed chamber, where decomposition of human bodies is expected to occur through bacteria and other natural scientific processes. When I know these FACTS, what I will ask is what happens when I Teleport using a magic spell into the room?"

If I am the DM, and you teleport into a room that has been sealed for centuries, and you did not prepare for the possibility of there being no breathable air in that room

AND, I did not hint to you that that was something you should prepare for

AND it is not a challenge that advances the story

THEN there will be breathable air in the room

In my campaigns I do not play "GOTCHA" with the player characters.

Dark Archive

Neither do I.

It's just an honest question.

Richard


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richard develyn wrote:

(or teleporting in maybe)

Would there be any oxygen in there?

All those decomposing bodies use up oxygen as they decompose, but apparently when tutankhamun's tomb was opened by Howard Carter he lit a match at the entrance and discovered that there was air in there.

Any views?

Richard

Send the question here?


Terquem wrote:

I really don't understand the line of questioning here.

"Okay, so, I need to chase down these facts, oxygen depletion rates in a sealed chamber, where decomposition of human bodies is expected to occur through bacteria and other natural scientific processes. When I know these FACTS, what I will ask is what happens when I Teleport using a magic spell into the room?"

If I am the DM, and you teleport into a room that has been sealed for centuries, and you did not prepare for the possibility of there being no breathable air in that room

AND, I did not hint to you that that was something you should prepare for

AND it is not a challenge that advances the story

THEN there will be breathable air in the room

In my campaigns I do not play "GOTCHA" with the player characters.

Why should the dm hint there won't be breathable air?

Dungeons and tombs can be dangerous, but if you spell out the threat and danger, they aren't going to have to think on their feet to get around it and triumph over this new and unusual dungeoneering challenge.

If you "do not play GOTCHA with the player characters" do you use traps in your games?

Do you use deathtraps that can actually kill their characters?

If you use traps, do you hint when and what dangerous trap is coming up?

I am genuinely interested in your replies, thank you.

Sovereign Court

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DM Under The Bridge wrote:


Why should the dm hint there won't be breathable air?

Dungeons and tombs can be dangerous, but if you spell out the threat and danger, they aren't going to have to think on their feet to get around it and triumph over this new and unusual dungeoneering challenge.

If you "do not play GOTCHA with the player characters" do you use traps in your games?

Do you use deathtraps that can actually kill their characters?

If you use traps, do you hint when and what dangerous trap is coming up?

I am genuinely interested in your replies, thank you.

Because players aren't archeologists and most of them have no idea that a sealed tomb is probably airless.

Traps are one thing. PCs are expecting traps. GOTCHA is when you're a douche and do something that has no real narrative purpose except to mess with the players.

Of course I use deathtraps.

Yes, I hint. My players usually do the homework on tombs that they're robbing, and if there are deathtraps, I hint it by adding a piece of fluff along the lines of "Narhudin the mad was well known as one of the finest tomb architects in the realm. He was also really fond of deathtraps".


We need a
What does "Gotcha" mean thread...


Does anyone else remember the Movie, "Mom and Dad save the World," and the Light Grenades with the words "Pick Me Up" written on it?


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If you do, don't have it kill them immediately, by any means. Have them notice they seem to be getting short of breath, and use the 'hold breath' and suffocation rules. Have it low oxygen, not completely oxygen-free. Maybe apply the high-altitude rules.

A smart individual who has studied how the world works will probably be aware that the air in sealed tombs is likely to be 'bad' even if he doesn't know it's because the oxygen levels are depleted, so you could have him roll (or secretly roll for him) a knowledge(nature) or intelligence check before going in, with a success telling him, "I better take a deep breath and hold it first in case the air has spoiled over the centuries".

This sounds like a totally legitimate environmental hazard, as long as you don't make it more than it is. It will also add to the verisimilitude, and give the player who figures out, "Oh, it's because of oxygen depletion" a feeling of accomplishment and cleverness. Just don't tell them it -- at most tell them they know that sealed tombs have 'spoiled air'.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

In the first season of Sanctuary, the episode "Revelations pt 2", there were 2 doors in a tomb. James Watson and John Druit had to work together to get the key. Neither door could be opened from the outside, but John could teleport in and open it. Behind only one door was a room, the other was solid rock. Teleport through the wrong one - instant entombment.

Scarab Sages

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Most sealed tombs aren't actually airtight, at least under real-world conditions. There might not be much air circulation inside, so it could be stale and smell bad, but a person entering the location wouldn't be at risk of suffocation. There are always little gaps that will admit some atmosphere from outside the tomb. Insects or burrowing animals leave tiny channels. So does water. Plants and bacteria grow and produce air.

Also, opening the tomb in any way, including by Phase Door, would allow some air from elsewhere to enter the tomb, unless you rule that the person using Phase Door doesn't bring any air with them from their starting point.

But in a fantasy setting you could have a sealed tomb in a pocket dimension that lacks an atmosphere, or it could have been created in a dense stone far underground via some form of magic so it has no access to the outside world. Perhaps a tomb chamber could have been buried in magma and the magma then solidified into stone in the intervening time period. In that case it might be possible to have a completely sealed chamber with no atmosphere. Even then I think a person entering via Phase Door would take some air with them, but it might not be enough to keep the person alive for long.

Shadow Lodge

I find this conundrum deliciously hilarious.

Liberty's Edge

Considering that mines and caves that are open to the air fill with various poisonous or non-breathable gases all the time...

Dark Archive

Thank you for your answers.

I asked the question because I'm in the middle of my next dungeon design and I was looking for information.

I have a tomb which was left in the middle of the wilderness which the PCs are going to have a look in at the invitation of the tomb's owners. A permanent Phase Door seemed like the most sensible way that this tomb would have been sealed against robbers, with the PCs possessing talismans to allow them through it.

I wondered what the conditions would be like inside. This is no trap, as such - the PCs can just walk straight out again - I'm just trying to get the atmospheric (sic) description right.

Richard

Liberty's Edge

What's the surrounding environment like and is it maintained or semi-frequently visited?

Dark Archive

It's up in the mountains, snowy apart from summer, and nobody's been in it for 50 years.

Cheers

Richard

Liberty's Edge

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Well, I'd probably go with calling it stale and still since you don't want this to be an environmental hazard. The area is probably too dry for musty oders, coal mine smells come from processes that would create environmental hazards like blackdamp, and I'm assuming that you're not planning on having posts flooded.

Avoid dusty type descriptions, the sort of dust we think of in most man made structures is mostly clothing fibers, hair, and skin so if no ones been there for fifty years it would all have settled an must of what you'd find anyway would be rock dust.


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Hama wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:


Why should the dm hint there won't be breathable air?

Dungeons and tombs can be dangerous, but if you spell out the threat and danger, they aren't going to have to think on their feet to get around it and triumph over this new and unusual dungeoneering challenge.

If you "do not play GOTCHA with the player characters" do you use traps in your games?

Do you use deathtraps that can actually kill their characters?

If you use traps, do you hint when and what dangerous trap is coming up?

I am genuinely interested in your replies, thank you.

Because players aren't archeologists and most of them have no idea that a sealed tomb is probably airless.

Traps are one thing. PCs are expecting traps. GOTCHA is when you're a douche and do something that has no real narrative purpose except to mess with the players.

Of course I use deathtraps.

Yes, I hint. My players usually do the homework on tombs that they're robbing, and if there are deathtraps, I hint it by adding a piece of fluff along the lines of "Narhudin the mad was well known as one of the finest tomb architects in the realm. He was also really fond of deathtraps".

You can indeed call me a douche for making quite dangerous dungeons. It goes back to Gygax and Arneson, but perhaps you don't want the old exciting traditions carried on, or maybe you lack the will to truly test the mettle of your players? Are you worried they will call you a douche if their characters' perish, or does it reflect your fear that your characters may have their lives snuffed out in-game?

Either way the narrative purpose of real danger and possible demise-via-trap is that should they fail badly and be defeated/exterminated the narrative ends with their loss. The dm can explain that out or weave it into a more satisfying end to the tale. The story of their characters is over, and how that is conveyed is up to the dm. They are more bones added to the tomb, and perhaps there is a small epilogue on the fate of the carcasses and items. This completely works with the fantasy setting and as an end to dangerous careers - their luck ran out. As is often repeated on game of thrones of late: valar morghulis (alas, there are no exceptions). :D


Hama wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:


Why should the dm hint there won't be breathable air?

Dungeons and tombs can be dangerous, but if you spell out the threat and danger, they aren't going to have to think on their feet to get around it and triumph over this new and unusual dungeoneering challenge.

If you "do not play GOTCHA with the player characters" do you use traps in your games?

Do you use deathtraps that can actually kill their characters?

If you use traps, do you hint when and what dangerous trap is coming up?

I am genuinely interested in your replies, thank you.

Because players aren't archeologists and most of them have no idea that a sealed tomb is probably airless.

Traps are one thing. PCs are expecting traps. GOTCHA is when you're a douche and do something that has no real narrative purpose except to mess with the players.

Of course I use deathtraps.

Yes, I hint. My players usually do the homework on tombs that they're robbing, and if there are deathtraps, I hint it by adding a piece of fluff along the lines of "Narhudin the mad was well known as one of the finest tomb architects in the realm. He was also really fond of deathtraps".

Narhudin the mad sounds like a swell guy. Got a nice dungeon of his prepped and up?

Sovereign Court

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Stale air pretty much. Maybe some accumulation of toxic gasses, Fort save vs getting sickened as long as they smell it. Nothing more.


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That is just weak sauce.

What about air-born mummy rot? Slower effects but far more terrifying. Hours in, the poor barbarian is left alone as everyone else coughs up large volumes of sand (formerly alveoli), before their chests cave in and their raspy screams surround the last survivor as all others are dessicated from the inside out.

*Makes some notes*

Liberty's Edge

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Ah, the Buckets of Blood Guy school of DMing.

The players aren't your enemies DMUtB, they're your entertainment. If killing them without any reasonable chance for them to prevent it is entertaining to you, yeah, you're kind of a jerk GM.


Come play in my games Krensky, before you jump to such snap judgements as I'm a "jerk DM".

The first word of the acronym CR is "challenge". I try to provide that in my games. Sometimes characters die, but it isn't really a very common occurrence, nor do I view them as my enemies (you are way off here).

The monsters and villains on the other hand, yeah, the players are their enemies. They try to fight the pc gank-train, and plan on winning and think they can, but near always the players come out on top and go right over them crushing their rended forms into the rails of plot advancement. Great times come from memorable challenges.

Liberty's Edge

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Oh, for the OP, you might consider turning the tomb into an ossuary which will remove all sorts of poisonous gases from decomposition from the sealed environment.


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DM Under The Bridge wrote:
That is just weak sauce.

DM Under The Bridge is correct. At the level of game play a character is casting phase door to knowingly enter a sealed tomb, a GM should expect the characters to prepare on their own accord. If they just waltz in to such a destination blind and unprotected, you'll get to see if they bothered to prepare any sort of fall back plan.

It is far, far too easy to go in to all but the utmost of lethal environments able to withstand it for at least 2 rounds at 13th level.

And by "utmost" I mean " Positive Energy Plane " or a location that equates to "rocks crush you into a thin red paste, everybody dies". Not even immediate immersion in lava averaging 70 points of fire damage per round is instantly fatal to 'the typical group' prepared for anything, not at 12th+ level.

At 13th level they have no excuse for not being VERY liberal with slathering on a cornucopia of defensive spells. They also have no excuse under typical circumstances to have not attempted to directly reconnoiter behind that wall. gloves of reconnaissance are stupefyingly cheap at 2,000 gp. clairaudience/clairvoyance has been at least theoretically available to them for at LEAST seven levels.

Each PC at this baseline has no reason to not have stocked up on at least a few thousand gp of consumable protections. Alchemical items work wonders, are cheap and last a respectable amount of time given their price.

When you're playing at the level of " I can instantaneously transport myself and four of my best friends anywhere I've ever been, regardless of distance ", there is no need to have nice environments. Let the players MAKE the environment hospitable, whether temporarily or permanently.

Liberty's Edge

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I don't know... Maybe because some people are interested in playing a game of heroic fantasy rather than a game of fantasy dynamic entry? Or maybe because some of us realise that killing PCs is so easy its pointless and find way more interesting ways to interact with them then playing stupid gotcha games?

Also, maybe we read the OP's actual posts and realise that the players aren't casting the spell themselves, something's casting it for them and that they're supposed ot be in the tomb.


Wouldn't it be rather fun to reward prepared players for stepping into an environmental hellhole, regardless of level?

" Holy cr@p, we'd've died if we hadn't used those air bubble and delay poison spells! Go US!! "

Liberty's Edge

"Congratulations guys! After spending hours obsessively planning and preparing and blowing massive amounts of in game resources preparing for every single possible and several impossible contingency you could possibly think I might do and then several more hours pixel b#%&!ing and playing 'GM May I?' you're now in the tomb with only minimal casualties.

See you next week!"

Sounds like the most boring thing ever.

Wouldn't it be fun to let the players actually accomplish something meaningful rather then just survive a pointless and incoherent gauntlet of random and absurd hazards?

"Wow, that was an awesome fight with the Baron's lackies who were looting the Royal Ossuary for material to use in a ritual to gain arcane influence over the Heir Primus in preparation for his upcoming coup!"

"Yeah, but what about the information we learned talking to the last Queen about how her son killed her and his older brother to seize the throne and blamed the Baron's father? If the King learn we found out we're dead but we can't just pretend it never happened?!"

"Especially after she revealed that your weird birthmark-tattoo-whatever-thingy means you're the lost Princess and he's just a pretender and gave you the location of the Sanguine Blade in order to take back the kingdom!"

"Yeah. Epic session guys, see you next week."


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The tomb itself IS a hazard, or can be. E-mail and phones work wonders in between sessions.

The most boring thing I can think of is walking in expecting danger from a tomb ... and getting none.

Liberty's Edge

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Turin the Mad wrote:

The tomb itself IS a hazard, or can be. E-mail and phones work wonders in between sessions.

The most boring thing I can think of is walking in expecting danger from a tomb ... and getting none.

Funny, the most boring thing I can think of is the sort of adversarial, gotcha-based, game of accounting and anachronistic combat tactics you're describing.


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Krensky wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:

The tomb itself IS a hazard, or can be. E-mail and phones work wonders in between sessions.

The most boring thing I can think of is walking in expecting danger from a tomb ... and getting none.

Funny, the most boring thing I can think of is the sort of adversarial, gotcha-based, game of accounting and anachronistic combat tactics you're describing.

How is it "gotcha"? Going into a tomb/abandoned mine/dungeon full of monsters is all about preparation. Environmental hazards are part and parcel of such environments to varying degrees. They're all throughout the Core Rulebook. They're in every AP, module and campaign to see print.

No diseases, parasites, poisons? No ambushes? No Ye Olde Mummy's Curse (a la 'King Tut')? The PCs are the only things in all of existence allowed to use all the tools in the toolbox?

Balogna.

Liberty's Edge

Nothing without a narrative purpose and intent.

Filling in what the OP said:

The players have been charged to investigate the Royal Crypt by the King and given the key to enter it. We will assume he's not pulling a Rosencrantz and Guildenstern on them.

Sure, said crypt may well be trapped. Why would the king not give them the information how to bypass or disable those traps? Why would there be strange diseases or poisons or what not that would actually be threats in this circumstance?

What purpose does random die rolls to see if the players contracted some disease that is unrelated to the point of the adventure that will either kill them because they can't do anything about it or is resolved by a quick spell serve?


Krensky wrote:

I don't know... Maybe because some people are interested in playing a game of heroic fantasy rather than a game of fantasy dynamic entry? Or maybe because some of us realise that killing PCs is so easy its pointless and find way more interesting ways to interact with them then playing stupid gotcha games?

Also, maybe we read the OP's actual posts and realise that the players aren't casting the spell themselves, something's casting it for them and that they're supposed ot be in the tomb.

I can testify that fantasy dynamic entry is also pretty damn cool.

Did it with a spec ops team of Chelaxian Gnomes once.


Turin the Mad wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:

The tomb itself IS a hazard, or can be. E-mail and phones work wonders in between sessions.

The most boring thing I can think of is walking in expecting danger from a tomb ... and getting none.

Funny, the most boring thing I can think of is the sort of adversarial, gotcha-based, game of accounting and anachronistic combat tactics you're describing.

How is it "gotcha"? Going into a tomb/abandoned mine/dungeon full of monsters is all about preparation. Environmental hazards are part and parcel of such environments to varying degrees. They're all throughout the Core Rulebook. They're in every AP, module and campaign to see print.

No diseases, parasites, poisons? No ambushes? No Ye Olde Mummy's Curse (a la 'King Tut')? The PCs are the only things in all of existence allowed to use all the tools in the toolbox?

Balogna.

He is sticking to dangerous dungeons being "gotcha" tombs, with heavy negative connotations on that, regardless of what you say.

Maybe he doesn't like what we like. Different strokes for different folks.


[smarmy inappropriate silliness]whoa, whoa whoa, wait a minute, when did the game of Pathfinder start allowing for all this "different stroking, of different folks" options?

No, no, no, we all must play the game the same way, now sit down pick up your dice

"A wagon is overturned, goblins attack..."[/smarmy inappropriate silliness]


I'm always up for a goblins at a wagon fight.


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I don't think there would be a problem--the tomb isn't going to be totally airtight, there will have been time for air exchange after the bodies decomposed.


A variant of the air will kill you I heard off a great dm, was as follows. You attack the temple of the evil monks and infiltrate inside, unfortunately the incense they burn is a slowly debilitating poison, a poison of which they are immune and the invaders are not.

Good luck going through multiple levels of poison air.

Liberty's Edge

What possible purpose does that serve other than getting your jerkholery on?

That's pretty much a textbook example of how not to design an adventure.

Grand Lodge

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Krensky wrote:

What possible purpose does that serve other than getting your jerkholery on?

That's pretty much a textbook example of how not to design an adventure.

If you say so…

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree; not by a long-shot!

One of my favorite AD&D modules:

TSR Module C1:

The 1st edition AD&D module "The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan" (for characters level 5 - 7) featured a dungeon/tomb in which the lower levels were filled with poison.

Dungeon Module C1 wrote:
Another hazard of these ruins is that the lower levels are filled with poisonous gas. This includes the rooms and passages from encounter areas #1 through #38 (which makes up the entire 1st level of the tomb). A character will suffer 1-6 hit points of damage for every turn spent in the gas. A neutralize poison will reduce damage to half for 1 turn. If the character remains in the gas the next turn, normal damage will accrue. A slow poison will reduce damage to 1 point per turn for the duration of the spell.

Shadow Lodge

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Krensky wrote:

Ah, the Buckets of Blood Guy school of DMing.

The players aren't your enemies DMUtB, they're your entertainment. If killing them without any reasonable chance for them to prevent it is entertaining to you, yeah, you're kind of a jerk GM.

Some people don't find it entertaining to be put in a "kiddie" dungeons that has rubber bumpers.

Shadow Lodge

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Krensky wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:

The tomb itself IS a hazard, or can be. E-mail and phones work wonders in between sessions.

The most boring thing I can think of is walking in expecting danger from a tomb ... and getting none.

Funny, the most boring thing I can think of is the sort of adversarial, gotcha-based, game of accounting and anachronistic combat tactics you're describing.

Where do you draw the line? Is it "gotcha!" to have monsters that want to kill the PCs in the dungeon?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

When you get to the level where wizards can cast Phase Door, and that's not the big gun they have ready, that's usually a sign that you need to think of different challenges.

Air is hardly the problem as opposed to the undead that most likely lie within.

Liberty's Edge

Kthulhu wrote:
Krensky wrote:

Ah, the Buckets of Blood Guy school of DMing.

The players aren't your enemies DMUtB, they're your entertainment. If killing them without any reasonable chance for them to prevent it is entertaining to you, yeah, you're kind of a jerk GM.

Some people don't find it entertaining to be put in a "kiddie" dungeons that has rubber bumpers.

Uh huh.

Was I supposed to be insulted by that?

Here's a tiny hint. I generally don't use 'dungeons'.

They don't make any sense in anything resembling a realistic world.

And I'll say it AGAIN.

Killing PCs is easy. No matter how you guys dress it up or justify it, everything you're describing is really just a fancy form of the 'Rock's fall' trope. If you really want to challenge and mess with your players

Grimtooth's traps is a funny read, but bad game mastering advice.

Yes, I assume my players will win. I structure my adventures and worlds with that assumption and to support it. Why? Because of the Die Hard Effect. The players want to get beaten, bloodied, and get knocked down. BUT they want ot be able to get back up again and throw Hans out of the window and say 'Yippie-kai-yae, [bleep]'.

The game (which in my case is not Pathfinder, but it works here just as well) works best when the question isn't 'Will the players win?', but 'What will this cost the players?'.

Random, nonsensical traps and clouds of poison gas, weird arbitrary challenges, and incoherent wandering monsters don't contribute to that. So why have them? Tradition? Pfft.

Think of it as Chekhov's Gun for RPGs. If it doesn't contribute to the adventure the players (including the GM) want to have, if it's not necessary and irreplaceable to that goal, get rid of it.

Liberty's Edge

Kthulhu wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:

The tomb itself IS a hazard, or can be. E-mail and phones work wonders in between sessions.

The most boring thing I can think of is walking in expecting danger from a tomb ... and getting none.

Funny, the most boring thing I can think of is the sort of adversarial, gotcha-based, game of accounting and anachronistic combat tactics you're describing.
Where do you draw the line? Is it "gotcha!" to have monsters that want to kill the PCs in the dungeon?

Depends on the dungeon and what you're defining as a monster.

Without knowing more about the point of the scene in the OPs scenario I can't say whether there should be adversaries inside the tomb and, if there are, what they should be.

Shadow Lodge

Digitalelf wrote:

One of my favorite AD&D modules:

** spoiler omitted **

Not actually that dangerous. Remember that prior to 2000, a "turn" was a period of 10 minutes.

Grand Lodge

Kthulhu wrote:
Not actually that dangerous. Remember that prior to 2000, a "turn" was a period of 10 minutes.

Yeah a turn was 10 minutes, and the module was designed for tournament play (i.e. get-in, get-out within 4 hours of real time), but the tomb level in question is quite extensive and has many obstacles intended to slow the party's progress through it.


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Krensky wrote:

What possible purpose does that serve other than getting your jerkholery on?

That's pretty much a textbook example of how not to design an adventure.

The dungeon will be a challenge, it makes sense with the targets and inhabitants, and they will have to find a way to counter this or they are going to be incapacitated or really low on some ability scores the deeper they get in.

They will have to think, reason and adapt. The air itself is a problem to their advance. The dungeon will also be memorable and not the same old same old. :)

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