You can only have shield a bonus from one source. So you can fight with two shifts but only one of them is going to improve you AC. I am not sure if fight with two shields is allowed but I would not allow that in my game.
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You can only have shield a bonus from one source. So you can fight with two shifts but only one of them is going to improve you AC. I am not sure if fight with two shields is allowed but I would not allow that in my game.
2 shields is allowed by the rules and it has actually been a real fighting style. It is just not as popular as using a sword or other weapon in the opposite hand.
It is rules legal, but I dont think Paizo intended for you to get two weapons at half the enhancement price so I would still shoot this by the GM. If you are in PFS then you are good to go however.
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You can only have shield a bonus from one source. So you can fight with two shifts but only one of them is going to improve you AC. I am not sure if fight with two shields is allowed but I would not allow that in my game.
There is another long thread about dual-shield fighting where James Jacobs also thought it was silly until someone found two historical precedents for it: A Maori warrior style and an oriental martial arts style. The Maori style looked a little more traditional shield-bashy, while the martial artist used the edges of the shield like a large blade, but it looked to me like they were still blunt.
To the OP: you can also use the Weapon and Shield style Ranger, and just make your weapon another shield. That gets you Shield Mastery at 6th level instead of fighter at 11. The ranger is a little more offensive than the Fighter. I played the (non-dual)Shielded Fighter as a high AC tank for PFS and loved pushing things around the battlefield, but I didn't do any real damage with him until about 7th level. The new size stacking FAQ is also going to reduce his damage, as Shield Spikes and Bashing enchantment will no longer stack officially.
You do realize that the shield must be enchanted separately, as weapons and shield, right?
The shield price table does not apply to shield as weapons.
You must pay for them separately.
You do realize that the shield must be enchanted separately, as weapons and shield, right?
The shield price table does not apply to shield as weapons.
You must pay for them separately.
There is a feat that allow for your shield enhancement to apply to attacks as if it is a weapon enhancement. That is why the player is trying to do this.
2 shields is allowed by the rules and it has actually been a real fighting style. It is just not as popular as using a sword or other weapon in the opposite hand.
I presume you are referring to the video of a martial artist doing forms with two tiger 'shields' that actually seemed much more like scizores due to being a half tube of steel strapped to the forearm that ended in two spikes going beyond the hand? If so I take issue with your statements.
If you were to try and use two normal shields to fight with in a game, I would ask you to show me where it states this is possible rather than just point out it doesn't say you can't.
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Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See "heavy shield" on the Martial Weapons table for the damage dealt by a shield bash with a heavy shield. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon.
The specific entries for shield do not say they are counted as a one-handed or light weapon per se but only "For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls" it is called out as a specific case for a specific type of attack, shield bash. It's inclusion in the weapon tables is explained in that way as well.
The RW or not stuff is beside the point if it was just to be counted as any other weapon weapon it should be "Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning one-handed weapon".
To me it's you chaps that are house ruling due to exploiting the wording of the shield entry to allow you to do something you want rather than what was intended.
But hey as you say that's just me and my opinion, you won't ever play in a game with me, forget I spoke.
Even if you are enchanting the shields at a lower cost, you are enchanting 2 of them. Plus you are spending a lot of specialization on the two weapon fighting. Greater Two Weapon fighting requires a dexterity of 19, which will really cut into your budget for buffing strength. Having such a high dexterity and losing armor training means that you will be optimally using lighter armors.
A regular fighter using a two-hander would pump out similar, if not better numbers, without trying so hard. So, it's not like this build is OP. It's just adequate.
The Two Weapon Warrior archetype is completely unnecessary for this... in fact, I think it might be a mistake... You don't need 'improved balance' at all because shield master makes it so you take no penalties for wielding a weapon in the other hand (it doesn't matter that both are one handed), and you lose armor training! That might not sound like a huge deal, but bear in mind that you need a lot of Dex for the later 2wf feats... if you want to maximize his AC, armor training will be awesome (at 11th level it would let you wear mithril full plate with upto +6 Dex and no penalty to movement).
In fact... Dex is really important for a build like this... Why not run with that... This might be a little bit cheesy, but a 1 level swashbuckler dip might really open up this build... Take weapon versatility with large shield so you can count it as a 1 handed slashing weapon, then take Slashing Grace with it- now you can use your Dex for damage instead of Str, and SG plus swashbuckler's finesse means you get to use Dex for attack rolls too! Weapon finesse makes you take your shield's ACP as a penalty to attack rolls, but shield master doesn't say that you take no 2wf penalties, it says you take no penalties to attack rolls with your shield while wielding another weapon... so, technically, you get to ignore the finesse penalty too!
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I did find the Bashing enhancement aswell, but i dont think its actually good.
If you have a medium sized heavy spiked steel shield it deals 1d6. making it bashing, granting +2 size categories you go to 2d6.
That's actually incorrect as well.
A Heavy Shield deals 1d4A Spiked Heavy Shield deals 1d6
A Bashing Heavy Shield deals 1d8
A Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield deals 1d8
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If you were to try and use two normal shields to fight with in a game, I would ask you to show me where it states this is possible rather than just point out it doesn't say you can't.
If you were to try and use two normal swords to fight with in a game, I would ask you to show me where it states this is possible rather than just point out it doesn't say you can't.
If you were to try and use two normal daggers to fight with in a game, I would ask you to show me where it states this is possible rather than just point out it doesn't say you can't.
If you were to try and use two normal axes to fight with in a game, I would ask you to show me where it states this is possible rather than just point out it doesn't say you can't.
Funny enough, none of the two-weapon fighting rules list which specific weapons you're allowed to fight with. Obviously, this means you're not allowed to use any weapons at all.
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Yes - that is the most powerful TWF combat style (though feat intensive - plus a trait). You lose a bit of damage vs normal TWF as you have a weaker crit (though +2 to hit higher), but that's more than made up for by having better defense than sword & board (not for AC - but you have another item to spread other defenses around on more cheaply) and getting your enchantment for the same cost as two-handed.
It's superior to sword & board TWF as it's cheaper and you get the static bonuses (especially with fighter weapon training/weapon spec etc) for both weapons.
The main reason to get Bashing is if you're starting the campaign below level 11, before you can get Shield Master. In addition, an extra d6 physical damage is generally better than d6 energy damage. (except against swarms) This is because if the target has just resistance 5, the d6 damage is virtually worthless. Likely the rest of the weapon's damage has already punched through any DR that the target may have, so they virtually always take the extra d6.
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I did find the Bashing enhancement aswell, but i dont think its actually good.
If you have a medium sized heavy spiked steel shield it deals 1d6. making it bashing, granting +2 size categories you go to 2d6.That's actually incorrect as well.
A Heavy Shield deals 1d4
A Spiked Heavy Shield deals 1d6
A Bashing Heavy Shield deals 1d8
A Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield deals 1d8
That's debatable as a Heavy Spiked Shield is listed as a seperate entry on the weapons table.
I did find the Bashing enhancement aswell, but i dont think its actually good.
If you have a medium sized heavy spiked steel shield it deals 1d6. making it bashing, granting +2 size categories you go to 2d6.That's actually incorrect as well.
A Heavy Shield deals 1d4
A Spiked Heavy Shield deals 1d6
A Bashing Heavy Shield deals 1d8
A Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield deals 1d8
It's still a bit iffy, because the spiked shield has its own weapon entry. You could argue the bit about sizes in the weapon description is just flavor text.
You could also argue that a shield spike is not a "size changing effect", because it is a real permanent part of that thing and not an "effect".
A flaw in the entire "2 shields" combat style is that you are only allowed to have one magic shield. You only have one shield slot (CRB p459).
So, if you want to TWF with a magic shield and a non-magic shield, you can. But if you want to TWF with two magic shields, one of them is non-functional.
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Then it needs to be enchanted as a weapon and not as a shield. If it is enchanted as a shield they cannot then use the shield enchantment as a weapon enchantment if they are already doing that with the other shield (due to only one shield slot).
So yes, you can save half the money on one shield but not the other.
They're putting that second shield in the Weapon slot, because they're using it as a weapon.A flaw in the entire "2 shields" combat style is that you are only allowed to have one magic shield. You only have one shield slot (CRB p459).
So, if you want to TWF with a magic shield and a non-magic shield, you can. But if you want to TWF with two magic shields, one of them is non-functional.
I agree with this ruling, but I do wonder how it affects all of the other shield enchant bits. For instance, the bashing enchant is on the shield part of the shield, and if you aren't using the shield as a shield, should you really be able to benefit from its "shield-ness", when using the shield as a weapon.
...stuff
I mean, i wanna attack with attack with my shield. what do the rules say? "treat it as a onehanded weapon". i wanna do 2 attacks with my shield, can i do this?. ofc since is treated "as a one handed weapon".
I have a shield in each Hand. can i attack with both? no, you could do this with a shield and a one-handed-weapon, but not with a shield and a 2nd shield even though it is treated "as a one handed weapon"?. Doesnt sound too logical in my ears.
I think that would go a bit far. Anything you can do with a Weapon, you also can...
The full quote under Weapons in UE is "You can bash with a heavy shield instead of using it for defense. The shield entries for heavy shields appear on page 11." p.11 gives you the specific rules for the shield.
It doesn't actually say if you want to attack treat it as a one-handed weapon though does it? it says for attack penalties treat it as a one-handed weapon. As for anything you can do with a weapon bit, it also works like armour, it has an armour check penalty and really that's the bit that puts the kibosh on it for me, in rule terms, it is so big and awkward and heavy it imposes a penalty on dex and strength based skill checks.
Even if you make it from Mithril it wouldn't alter the fact that it should have an ACP. It also wouldn't allow you to hold anything in your hand for a heavy or wield anything you held for a light. You will also notice that the term bash is used for a shield attack pretty much across the board again indicating it's something different from normal.
As for logic, I apologise for the RW connection but if you have a museum or armory near you go and have a look at a shield. I understand it's not about reality but we already stretch it with shield bashing.
As for why the rules don't specifically ban it I've played D&D and now PFRPG for 38 years and this is the first time I've ever encountered people thinking you could do it and it makes sense. Like I said I'm not your GM so this is just how I see it.
Thanks for trying to answer the points I made.
Edited for too many nows
On another point how would you put the other shield on?
You strap a heavy steel shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy steel shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else.
Or You strap a light steel shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light steel shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.
So can you manipulate stuff with a light shield on? Pick locks etc?
You can do it all with one shield if you're a shield champion. Talk about saving money!
Shield: +5 to Attack, Damage and AC = 25,000 gp
Unarmed Strike: VS +5 to Attack, Damage = 100,000 gp
And Shield Champions also get a scaled base damage for the shield, which can be raised with Monk's Robes.
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The shield is a weapon.
Stain your panties, or houserule as much as the desire hits you.
This doesn't change the fact that, within the real world, and more importantly, within the Pathfinder game, shields are weapons.
Do I have to mention again, there are Metal Fighting Beards, and Bat'leths in Pathfinder?
lets say i make it a +5 shield with +1 ghost touch on the weapon side, do i get the shield bonus to incorporeal touch attacks?
No. Unless you have some ability that lets you use the shield's shield enhancement bonus as a weapon enhancement bonus (there are some), they don't interact.
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No. Unless you have some ability that lets you use the shield's shield enhancement bonus as a weapon enhancement bonus (there are some), they don't interact.lets say i make it a +5 shield with +1 ghost touch on the weapon side, do i get the shield bonus to incorporeal touch attacks?
You mean like the Shield Master feat he mentioned getting? (Though I don't think making the shield a ghost touch weapon would affect the AC bonus at all. No indication that it would.)
That's one of them. I think there's an equipment trick too, but I don't have access to my books atm. I agree about the non-enhancement abilities, but there may be some character ability that works on those too.
2 shields is allowed by the rules and it has actually been a real fighting style. It is just not as popular as using a sword or other weapon in the opposite hand.I presume you are referring to the video of a martial artist doing forms with two tiger 'shields' that actually seemed much more like scizores due to being a half tube of steel strapped to the forearm that ended in two spikes going beyond the hand? If so I take issue with your statements.
If you were to try and use two normal shields to fight with in a game, I would ask you to show me where it states this is possible rather than just point out it doesn't say you can't.
Why would the rules need to state it is possible? Shields are also weapons. You would need to prove that it can't be done. Now if shields were only shields and not listed as martial weapons then you would have a point.
As an out of game argument you can look up the name of the fighting style. It was based out of China if I recall correctly.
However there still may be a rules issue with this, but just using two shields is not one in and of itself.
There is a feat that allow for your shield enhancement to apply to attacks as if it is a weapon enhancement. That is why the player is trying to do this.You do realize that the shield must be enchanted separately, as weapons and shield, right?
The shield price table does not apply to shield as weapons.
You must pay for them separately.The feat only allows you to have your +X shield act as a +X weapon.
This still closes out things such as bane and energy bonus damage enchantments and much of anything else that's not a +X enhancement bonus. So don't expect a lot of Paladins, Arcane Duellist Bards, or magi (even the ones with the shield using archetype) to find this of much use.
I understand that, but that is not a point I was making.
There is no weapon slot that I know of. I guess holding two magical shields is treated as wearing two necklaces or 3 rings etc etc. Once of them turns off.
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I personally think the dual-wielding klars is the way to go with this.
Primarily because they look cool as hell. You're stabbing people to death with giant lizard skulls.
"There is no weapon slot that I know of. I guess holding two magical shields is treated as wearing two necklaces or 3 rings etc etc. Once of them turns off."
disagree. you can wear a Magic weapon and a Magic shield, no doubt. since a shield is also a weapon, i think you can run 2 shields.
if not, then you take:
1 shield enhanced with armorenhancements
1 shield enhanced with weaponenhancements.
in that case i think its obvious treating 1 as weapon and 1 as shield in Terms of magical item Slots.
Yeah that could work, but the OP partly wanted it for the double reduction in price, however for thematic reasons that should work.
Also when I said one of them turns off I was speaking of as a magical shield. The magic item section specifically says you only get one magical item per slot, and there is a shield slot. Of course rings are the exception. You get two of those.
edit: I see you are the OP, but yeah look at the magic item section and rule on slots.