Quick Combo of Abilities Questions


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

Ok, I’ve got a magus armed with a whip and he has cast chill touch.

1) If I cast True Strike, do I lose the Chill Touch attacks or not? I thought I remembered reading that I do lose them, but I can’t find it now.
2) If I trip a wolf with the whip does he take Chill Touch damage from being hit with the whip and spellstrike?


not to ignore the original question, but why not cast the true strike first, and then the chill touch? that would definitely work

round 1 attack spell combat cast true strike

round 2 spell strike chill touch with the true strike bonus

Grand Lodge

Quote:

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge

In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

So casting the True Strike would dissipate the Chill Touch.

Scarab Sages

Koshimo wrote:

not to ignore the original question, but why not cast the true strike first, and then the chill touch? that would definitely work

round 1 attack spell combat cast true strike

round 2 spell strike chill touch with the true strike bonus

That is what I usually do. However, in this particular case, I didn't realize the target was tough enough that I might need the true strike to hit reliably.

Grand Lodge

For the Trip question, this is difficult. A trip attempt uses the weapon, but does not actually "hit". It just succeeds. For me, that means it would not discharge the spell. But expect variation.


Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
For the Trip question, this is difficult. A trip attempt uses the weapon, but does not actually "hit". It just succeeds. For me, that means it would not discharge the spell. But expect variation.

Actually, to do a trip, one must connect with the enemy, i.e. touch them, which is all a touch attack needs. So yes, it would indeed discharge the spell. There is no variation in thought on it.

Grand Lodge

Meiliken wrote:
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
For the Trip question, this is difficult. A trip attempt uses the weapon, but does not actually "hit". It just succeeds. For me, that means it would not discharge the spell. But expect variation.
Actually, to do a trip, one must connect with the enemy, i.e. touch them, which is all a touch attack needs. So yes, it would indeed discharge the spell. There is no variation in thought on it.

RAI, this may be true, but RAW, there is no indication whether or not the weapon you use hits the target. For example, if you trip a creature with a +1 Flaming Whip, you would not deal the +1d6 fire damage as part of the trip. For the same logic, I would say you do not discharge the spell.

But as I said, variation is expected. Especially if you explictly state you are aiming to trip and touch the target at the same time.


I would say no. Spellstrike allows you to deliver the spell as part of a melee attack. It is specifically NOT a touch attack. You cannot target it against a touch AC and touching them (with the weapon) is not enough. Trip also REPLACES the melee attack. It is not made as a melee attack.

So, when tripping, you are not making a melee attack which is one of the requirements for spellstrike.


Trip is a combat maneuver, combat maneuvers are attack rolls; tripping with the whip is a melee attack so spell strike applies.


Except, Trekkie90909, for all the things that says that everything you just said is not true.

PFSRD wrote:
Spellstrike... he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
CRB p199 wrote:
Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action.
CRB p201 wrote:
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack.
Trekkie90909 wrote:
Trip is a combat maneuver, combat maneuvers are attack rolls; tripping with the whip is a melee attack so spell strike applies.

Trip is a combat maneuver. Combat maneuvers are resolved using attack rolls. Not all attack rolls are melee attacks. Trip is in place of a melee attack. A melee attack does damage. Spellstrike requires a melee attack, not a melee attack roll.

If I have apples in place of oranges, I have apples, I no longer have oranges.

If I make a trip combat maneuver in place of a melee attack, I have made a trip combat maneuver, I no longer have made a melee attack.

Using your example: Trip is a combat maneuver, combat maneuvers are attack rolls; tripping with a longsword is a melee attack so 1d8 damage applies.


"in place of a melee attack" seems pretty damning.

While I'd probably allow it at my table, Trip + Spellstrike doesn't seem to be RAW-legal.


It is a lot easier to hit many opponents with trip than it is to hit them with a melee attack.

And in other cases it would be harder, but leaving that option open to a character to choose the best one is not very balancing.


@Komoda

Quote:


leaving that option open to a character to choose the best one is not very balancing

What?

It's perfectly balanced as long as your NPCs get the same benefits. Or do you mean "balanced" in a different sense? If so, what sense?

Scarab Sages

Well this was a RAW query. So bad news on both questions. Was kinda expecting it, but thought I'd check.

In this particular case it didn't matter because the warpriest full attack demolished the war wolf before my turn came up again.

But the info will help in the future. Thanks folks.


CripDyke wrote:

@Komoda

Quote:


leaving that option open to a character to choose the best one is not very balancing

What?

It's perfectly balanced as long as your NPCs get the same benefits. Or do you mean "balanced" in a different sense? If so, what sense?

The idea that a character can choose their best attack method vs. the enemies worst defense method for the same ability is unbalanced.

Trip is not equal to attacks. It is not defended against in the same way. It is MUCH easier to gain bonuses to trip than attacks. Every bonus to attacks works for trip, then you also get to add additional bonuses to the trip.

So take the Whip example. A character builds themselves around the whip and spellstrike. Size modifiers become mute. If a creature is larger, their CMD goes up making it harder to hit them. But their AC goes down, making it easier to hit them a different way. So there is no way to make it harder for you to spellstrike them. If they go smaller, their AC goes up but CMD goes down. So again, you would have your pick at the type of attack.

Weapon Focus (whip) costs a feat and gains the Magus a +1 to hit with his spellstrike. Improved Trip costs one feat and would give the Magus a +2 to Spellstrike with all weapons. Greater Weapon Focus would give him a +2 with the whip, and he would have to be 16th level. Greater Trip would give him +4 and he would only have to be 8th level.

With minimal effort, you could apply spellstrike to a lot more targets than the ones that a Magus would normally be capable of hitting. A wizard that cast shield gains no defense against a Magus that can just use trip for the spellstrike.

Using trip allows the attacker to ignore the entire armor/shield system, if it suits him.

It would be akin to allowing a wizard cast a charm spell and choose not only if the caster level or spellcraft check is what the DC of the save is based on, but also which save the target must use rather than it being a will save.

There are a lot more parameters that go into the balance of a sub-syetem than just the ability for both sides to be able to do it.

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