| 9 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey Guys,
There are a few threads that discuss whether or not you can cast magic vestments on a suit of summoned armor from the Oracle's mystery abilities like Armor of Bones. Has there been any comment from the designers, from the FAQ, from Sean K. Reynolds, ANYTHING official? I ask because our GM is on the fence about allowing it in our game, and a designer comment would push him one way or the other.
Anyone know of anything official about the combo?
Thanks
I'm not sure it is that simple. Armor of Bones specifically says that you 'conjure armor' so it does indeed seem to be armor. And in general, you can cast spells on conjured things, such as bull's strength on a summoned monster.
I can't come up with any reason to not allow it, although I am not sure that those scaling, no max dex armors were intended to be able to be enhanced.
This is the reason I was asking if there was anything from the Paizo guys. You would argue (as some players in my group would) that it's a magical effect.
Others (including some player's in my group) might argue that:
You can conjure armor made of bones that grants you a +4 armor bonus.
(emphasis mine) sounds like a suit of armor. I've seen and heard both sides of the argument and I don't think there's a need for us to rehash it here. I'm wondering if there's been anything even seemingly official. Did the PFS adjudicators weigh in ever? Was there a thread marked for an FAQ, and you made your argument and then they said "Yeah, LazarX has it right, no need for an FAQ on this one"?
Thanks.
No need for a FAQ. Armor and clothing show up in the Equipment section of the Core rulebook. Armor has stats for things like armor check penalty, weight, and a classification as light/medium/heavy. The armor of bones is not in the Equipment section of the Core rulebook, APG, or other book. Magical vestment doesn't apply. Just like it won't apply to the mage armor spell.
Lets just look at it from a balance point.
You want to make armor of bones with +17 AC, no move speed penalty, Max Dex of infinite, no ACP, and no weight vs +14 AC, speed reduction, +1 Max Dex, -5ACP, and 50lbs??
I would say....no. :)
While there is no official word if Magic Vestment were allowed to work on armor effects like this one it would open the door to a lot of abuse.
Where I draw the line is, does the ability create actual, listed suit of armor where you can reference the stats of the armor in the armor list?
If yes, I generally do not see a problem with Magic Vestment working on it.
If no, then I do see a problem with Magic Vestment working on it as it is not a "suit of armor" or clothing.
So, since it isn't armor, it doesn't take up the armor slot or have problems stacking with armor enchantments that are on the armor that you are wearing?
Something tells me you guys think that it is indeed 'armor' when it comes to those things, despite the lack of book stats.
Taking it one step further, would it affect a monks abilities? If it's not armor enough for enhancement it's not enough to affect abilities that require you to be unarmored right?
Couldn't you get the enhancement bonus to AC from casting Magic Vestment on your clothes and then using the armor power for an armor bonus? An I missing something here?
Couldn't you get the enhancement bonus to AC from casting Magic Vestment on your clothes and then using the armor power for an armor bonus? An I missing something here?
Clothing is treated as "+0 armor" for magic vestment. Also, magic vestment grants an enhancement bonus (which is added to the object it is enhancing), not a general "AC bonus." So, the clothing grants one armor bonus (+0 plus magic vestment) and the oracle revelation grants a separate armor bonus. Per stacking rules, only the highest armor bonus applies between the two objects.
You don't get to apply an enhancement bonus on one object to another object. That's like applying the enhancement bonus on a +4 dagger to the attack and damage rolls of your +1 keen falcata when Two-Weapon Fighting.
As to the original question, if the revelation conjures physical armor (i.e., ice with the Waves mystery), then I'd allow it to benefit from magic vestment. However, if dispelled (either by the oracle or through dispel magic, etc.) the magic vestment is lost and must be re-cast if the oracle re-conjures the armor (as it is technically a "new" suit of armor).
Couldn't you get the enhancement bonus to AC from casting Magic Vestment on your clothes and then using the armor power for an armor bonus? An I missing something here?Clothing is treated as "+0 armor" for magic vestment. Also, magic vestment grants an enhancement bonus (which is added to the object it is enhancing), not a general "AC bonus." So, the clothing grants one armor bonus (+0 plus magic vestment) and the oracle revelation grants a separate armor bonus. Per stacking rules, only the highest armor bonus applies between the two objects.
You don't get to apply an enhancement bonus on one object to another object. That's like applying the enhancement bonus on a +4 dagger to the attack and damage rolls of your +1 keen falcata when Two-Weapon Fighting.
Hm. Do you have a rules quote on that one? I've always heard that an Enhancement bonus increases your Armor Bonus and is not applied to the character in a more roundabout manner, but I've never seen any rules supporting that other than tradition.
I honestly can't figure out if an enhancement bonus applies to the armor bonus (which is then applied to AC) or if there is an armor bonus and enhancement bonuses that are added from shield, armor, and natural armor enhancement bonuses because they are called out to explicitly stack.
Xethik,
Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.
Xethik,
Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.
Hah, that'll do it, thanks. I was looking at the Magic Armor section of the PRD and it really avoids the straight answer.
The ice armour spell specifically conjures a breastplate. I would assume that magic vestment could be cast on that.
On the other hand, the oracle revelations don't specify which armour they conjure, I always read those as if they were like the mage armour spell...without any actual justification except how my mind interpreted their effects.
Can you cast magic vestment on a mage armour spell? I'd say no.
Mage Armor doesn't conjure physical armor that takes up the armor slot. The Oracle revelations do. Nowhere does the mage armor spell refer to the force barrier as actual armor. The Oracle revelations do.
Different things.
Yes, that's why I wrote it, but my point is:
There are 3 cases.1 actual armour or clothes where magic vestment works.
2 mage armour where magic vestment does not work.
3 oracle armour revelations where the rules are unclear and therefore there is disagreement.
I would treat the oracle revelations as being like mage armour, with regards to magic vestment.
RAW and RAI are unclear.
Um, because it says that it is physical armor? Is it your contention that you can get an armor bonus from physical armor without wearing armor in the armor slot?
So, I could wear a mithral enchanted chain shirt with a bunch of armor enchantments on it, then activate the Oracle armor to get the higher AC bonus?
And that's less broken?
Mage armor is neither armor, nor a physical object. It's a force field that provides an armor bonus.
What type of armor is it? How long does it take to put the armor on or take it off?
Well, the armor is automatically donned when activating the revelation, and definitionally removed when deactivating the revelation. So, standard action to put on or take off.
Um, because it says that it is physical armor? Is it your contention that you can get an armor bonus from physical armor without wearing armor in the armor slot?
So, I could wear a mithral enchanted chain shirt with a bunch of armor enchantments on it, then activate the Oracle armor to get the higher AC bonus?
And that's less broken?
Mage armor is neither armor, nor a physical object. It's a force field that provides an armor bonus.
A Ring of Force Shield is a force field too and it seems to be treated as an actual shield. Bracers or armor, snakeskin tunic, pelt of primal power and a robe of the archmagi all grant AC bonuses and don't take up an armor slot. It's not as clear as you make it seem. And what of those abilities that don't call themselves armor? Look at Coat of Many Stars (dark tapestry): "You conjure a coat of starry radiance that grants you a +4 armor bonus." So is that body? Chest? Or would you still want it in a armor slot.
Myself, I don't assume abilities/powers do things they don't say they do, like take up item slots. This is especially true in this case as it's a MAGIC item slot and the item that's being conjured seems to be a mundane armor (or at least treated as such by _Ozy_).
EDIT: Armored coat also shows that you can wear multiple armors at once and you take the "better AC bonus" for doing so. "The only magic effects that apply are those of armor, clothing, or items worn on top." So if you assume that it's actual armor, you activate the ability first then put an your armor with all the goodies enchanted on it second.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, the armor is automatically donned when activating the revelation, and definitionally removed when deactivating the revelation. So, standard action to put on or take off.
I think he was referring to what "type" of armor is it according to the ARMOR section of equipment. If it is specifically armor, and takes up the armor slot, then it would have to be defined there.
Do traits like Defender of the Society (Benefit: You gain a +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.) work with it? What about other traits or feats that specifically effect "armor"?
Well, the armor is automatically donned when activating the revelation, and definitionally removed when deactivating the revelation. So, standard action to put on or take off.I think he was referring to what "type" of armor is it according to the ARMOR section of equipment. If it is specifically armor, and takes up the armor slot, then it would have to be defined there.
Do traits like Defender of the Society (Benefit: You gain a +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.) work with it? What about other traits or feats that specifically effect "armor"?
This is what I was getting at. Armor follows certain rules, and those rules are not listed for this ability.
I always assumed it was actual armor and as such could be the target of MV.
Hey Guys,
There are a few threads that discuss whether or not you can cast magic vestments on a suit of summoned armor from the Oracle's mystery abilities like Armor of Bones. Has there been any comment from the designers, from the FAQ, from Sean K. Reynolds, ANYTHING official? I ask because our GM is on the fence about allowing it in our game, and a designer comment would push him one way or the other.
Anyone know of anything official about the combo?
Thanks
To return to the original question: No, there doesn't seem to be any.
I hope you are enjoying the discussion!To sum up: it's a definite 'maybe'. (Unless you 'know' exactly what the developers intended.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see how one can gain the benefit of armor unless it is worn, and armor is worn in the armor slot, no? Do you get the armor bonus just for using the ability? You're right, it never says you have to wear the armor, so I suppose you can just put it away into your backpack and still get the bonus?
Some things don't need to be repeated for every item. The fact that you need to wear armor to get the benefit is one of them.
Heavens Oracle says:
Coat of Many Stars (Su): You conjure a coat of starry radiance that grants you a +4 armor bonus. At 7th level, and every four levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +2. [etc]Which slot does it occupy? Armour? Why?
Bones Oracle uses the word 'armour' instead, so it should occupy the armour slot. But does that mean you have to remove any actual armour you are wearing before activating it? The revelation does not explain.
Does a Heavens oracle have to remove any coat he/she might be wearing? Body, chest or shoulders?
Mage Armour specifies 'Unlike mundane armor, mage armor entails no armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, or speed reduction.'
The various oracle revelations do not specify these factors, one way or the other; physical armours do (of course).
I would like to see something that clearly states that the revelations count as actual armour (in which case they should have some sort of check penalty or max dex, weight, category for applying feats/traits/etc) and therefore magic vestment should apply - or a clear statement that they don't count, have no max dex, etc, like mage armour does.
As it stands, it is a leap of interpretation to be 'sure' either way. In a game, I'd have to ask my GM. That's not an ideal situation for a rule. I don't have an axe to grind here, I simply find it easy to see both viewpoints and would prefer some sort of clarification.
If you wanted to you could see, the 'armour' gained by these revelations as some sort of 'defending' armour bonus - the Bones (if you use that mystery) could be whirling around you, not occupying any slot, as physical objects. Since you don't seem to have to be actually wearing them, magic vestment can't apply. Thus, no armour check penalty, etc, no need to remove existing armour (and you'd then have to use whichever armour granted the higher bonus), and so on. Do I think that is what was intended? No, not really.
You can wear multiple armors at once. MAGIC ITEM armor takes the MAGIC ITEM armor slot. Check out armored coat. You are mixing up a magic slot with what armors can be worn. Having 2 ring slots doesn't limit you to wearing 2 rings. You can wear a vest and a shirt. I can keep going on, but NOTHING suggests that the 'armor' created by oracle abilities are counted as magic items.
SO you can't prove that they take a magic slot and even if you could do that you couldn't prove which one they take as I count at least 5 slots that can hold items I KNOW give AC bonuses.
Coat of many stars: Yep, I got mystery wrong. You are wrong that it's ever called armor. "You conjure a coat of starry radiance".
"Some things don't need to be repeated for every item. The fact that you need to wear armor to get the benefit is one of them": Other facts are that armors have types, weights, max dex, Armor Check Penalty and Speed. None of these are part of an oracles 'armor' abilities.
Compare to the spell Ice Armor: I spell that ACTUALLY creates a suit of armor. "It offers the same protection as a breastplate, except it has hardness 0 and 30 hit points." Here I can answer ALL those facts about armors. Type, weight, max dex, Armor Check Penalty and Speed; it's all there. THAT'S armor.
|
You can wear multiple armors at once.
I don't really believe that is true; or, at least they certainly wouldn't stack. There is only one 'active' armor slot from which you can gain benefit.
Source: Magic Item Slots.
Personally, so far I'd vote to allow the spell to work. Smells like "armor" to me.
|
Absolutely, and whatever provides the higher armor bonus will shut down the other, as per the armor stacking rules.Um, because it says that it is physical armor? Is it your contention that you can get an armor bonus from physical armor without wearing armor in the armor slot?
So, I could wear a mithral enchanted chain shirt with a bunch of armor enchantments on it, then activate the Oracle armor to get the higher AC bonus?
If Oracle armor isn't armor then the armor stacking rules don't apply.
Really? Woot! then lets bring on the +5 bracers of Armor stacking with my +5 Breastplate! [/sarcasm]
In all seriousness, Bracers of Armor aren't 'armor' (see Monks) and even without the explicit rules for bracers designed to prevent you from stacking armor abilities (a problem that was new for pathfinder and required the extra rules), the armor Bonus never stacked with the armor bonus from, say, a breastplate (even in 3.5, which didn't have the explicit bracer stacking rules) because they are both <armor> type bonuses
it's a tricky question.
The +17 upthread is at level 20 or so, and I always try to think of "what would this combo look like at level 7?" to worry about it. +17AC at level 20 is meh.
I'd say, that as they're Supernatural abilities, you're asking if an effect created by a supernatural ability can be enhanced/augmented by a spell or effect?
Is that already covered in the rules somewhere? Summon Monster doesn't count.
The Bless Equipment feat from the undead slayers handbook could be combined with come of these to create some great combos if so..
You can wear multiple armors at once.I don't really believe that is true; or, at least they certainly wouldn't stack. There is only one 'active' armor slot from which you can gain benefit.
Source: Magic Item Slots.
Personally, so far I'd vote to allow the spell to work. Smells like "armor" to me.
Did you miss what you linked? MAGIC item slots? Is the Oracle armor enchanted as a magic item? Wearing multiple normal armors is a different subject.
You can wear multiple armors at once. MAGIC ITEM armor takes the MAGIC ITEM armor slot. Check out armored coat. You are mixing up a magic slot with what armors can be worn. Having 2 ring slots doesn't limit you to wearing 2 rings. You can wear a vest and a shirt. I can keep going on, but NOTHING suggests that the 'armor' created by oracle abilities are counted as magic items.
SO you can't prove that they take a magic slot and even if you could do that you couldn't prove which one they take as I count at least 5 slots that can hold items I KNOW give AC bonuses.
So, oracle armor is slotless? That's your assertion? I can just bundle it up into my backpack and keep the armor bonus? Let's get you on the record here, just what slot, if any, do you think that oracle armor takes?
Coat of many stars: Yep, I got mystery wrong. You are wrong that it's ever called armor. "You conjure a coat of starry radiance".You should really double check things before getting them so very wrong:
At 13th level, this armor grants you DR 5/slashing.Compare to the spell Ice Armor: I spell that ACTUALLY creates a suit of armor. "It offers the same protection as a breastplate, except it has hardness 0 and 30 hit points." Here I can answer ALL those facts about armors. Type, weight, max dex, Armor Check Penalty and Speed; it's all there. THAT'S armor.Really? 'protection' does not mean weight, max dex, armor check penalty, or speed. It means armor bonus. You haven't been told what any of those other stats are.
Slotless armor: Yes, it's NOT a magic item so it doesn't take up a magic slot. Multiple normal items may be worn in the same area covered by a magic slot. Example, leather armor, and a armored coat. Vest and shirt.
Coat of stars: Ok, I looked at the base power and didn't look at the level ups. Sue me.
Armor: SO anything that that calls itself armor and grants an AC bonus is armor? PHYSICAL 'protection' of the armor type does mean weight, max dex, armor check penalty, or speed.
Anything that actually acts as armor tells you certain thing so that it can interact with rules that deal with armor. Type is the big one, and it's something missing from the 'armor' of oracle abilities. Does wearing one affect a monks abilities? A barbarian? Swashbuckler? Brawler? Ranger? Rogue? They ALL have abilities that are effected by armor. So what type IS it?
|
|
Absolutely, and whatever provides the higher armor bonus will shut down the other, as per the armor stacking rules.Um, because it says that it is physical armor? Is it your contention that you can get an armor bonus from physical armor without wearing armor in the armor slot?
So, I could wear a mithral enchanted chain shirt with a bunch of armor enchantments on it, then activate the Oracle armor to get the higher AC bonus?
If Oracle armor isn't armor then the armor stacking rules don't apply.
Really? Woot! then lets bring on the +5 bracers of Armor stacking with my +5 Breastplate! [/sarcasm]
In all seriousness, Bracers of Armor aren't 'armor' (see Monks) and even without the explicit rules for bracers designed to prevent you from stacking armor abilities (a problem that was new for pathfinder and required the extra rules), the armor Bonus never stacked with the armor bonus from, say, a breastplate (even in 3.5, which didn't have the explicit bracer stacking rules) because they are both <armor> type bonuses
*facepalm*
Dude, read the post above yours, it's not about stacking the armor bonus.
*faceplam*
Dude, look at the timestamps. They were posted at effectively the same time (within a minute of each other)
|
|
Multiple normal items may be worn in the same area covered by a magic slot. Example, leather armor, and a armored coat. Vest and shirt.
This is a little misleading, as only one of those items will be active. An Armored Coat states that, if it is worn over other armor, "..., use the better AC bonus and worse value in all other categories."
Therefore, a character may claim to be wearing more than one bit of armor, but it is cosmetic - only one armor slot exists and only one item may be active within it, as far as any benefit is concerned.
Did you miss what you linked? MAGIC item slots? Is the Oracle armor enchanted as a magic item? Wearing multiple normal armors is a different subject.
The title of the content heading does say "magic item slots", but it is referencing all slots, magic or not. For example, a mundane suit of scale mail DOES take up the armor slot given on that list.
|
|
Er, i'm not talking about stacking the armor bonus, i'm talking about getting the armor bonus from the oracle armor, and various armor enchantments from your +1 chain shirt of fortification, or whatever. I thought that was pretty clear from my statement where I mentioned 'a bunch of armor enchantments'.Yes it still does. even though it's not a standard suit of armor it provides an armor bonus which is separate from your mithral armor bonus. Bonuses of the same type do not stack, irregardless of what produces said bonus.Absolutely, and whatever provides the higher armor bonus will shut down the other, as per the armor stacking rules.Um, because it says that it is physical armor? Is it your contention that you can get an armor bonus from physical armor without wearing armor in the armor slot?
So, I could wear a mithral enchanted chain shirt with a bunch of armor enchantments on it, then activate the Oracle armor to get the higher AC bonus?
If Oracle armor isn't armor then the armor stacking rules don't apply.
The bracers of armor are not your friends here. They created precident for how conflicting sources of an armor bonus work with when those sources have Armor abilities as well.
Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Multiple normal items may be worn in the same area covered by a magic slot. Example, leather armor, and a armored coat. Vest and shirt.This is a little misleading, as only one of those items will be active. An Armored Coat states that, if it is worn over other armor, "..., use the better AC bonus and worse value in all other categories."
Therefore, a character may claim to be wearing more than one bit of armor, but it is cosmetic - only one armor slot exists and only one item may be active within it, as far as any benefit is concerned.
Did you miss what you linked? MAGIC item slots? Is the Oracle armor enchanted as a magic item? Wearing multiple normal armors is a different subject.The title of the content heading does say "magic item slots", but it is referencing all slots, magic or not. For example, a mundane suit of scale mail DOES take up the armor slot given on that list.
Yes, you read the armor coat but MISSED what it said. "use the better AC bonus" As to "only one item may be active", there is only ONE magic item active, the enchanted armor. The non-enchanted oracle ability isn't enchantment so there isn't anything that's active on it.
Slots: there are NO mundane slots. PLEASE post anything you think describes mundane slots. For example, where does it say I can only wear 2 normal rings or can't put a vest over a shirt. Nothing stops me from wearing a mail coif under a plate helm. In fact, historically you wore a great helm over a mail coif over a close-fitting iron skull cap known as a cervelliere.