Breaking out of the PFS mold


Advice


I am presently running a campaign of an unusual stripe, trying to drag a number of mostly high-school age, inexperienced players, outside the narrow confines of PFS. They would like to begin exploring a broader roleplay experience and more open-ended play, and eventually want to build the toolkit to run games on their own. The point of this campaign is to facilitate this, in large part by breaking them of bad habits, especially those which seem okay in PFS but become acute problems outside of that box.

I've opted to achieve this by adapting a Call of Cthulu module, "Beyond The Mountains of Madness". Its length rivals an Adventure Path, but the horror/survival theme will be new to these players and because C.O.C. modules are driven more by flavor than rules, it provides an ample stub on which to hang focused lesson plans... err... encounters. I can then explain plotting and encounter design as I go to provide some insight to the would-be GM's.

So far I've been attempting to drive home some basic lessons of etiquette, teamwork and planning...

* If the GM is giving out pointed tips, don't ignore them.
* No man is an island. Make sure the PARTY covers its bases.
* Share information and assist one another.
* Actions have consequences:
Do not do anything IC that you can't at least try to justify.
Swordplay isn't always the answer.
* Do not assume the encounter is weak just because you are.

This week will be a personal favorite, "Leave dragons alone." After that though, I'm open to additional input. It's been a long time since I counseled true newbies. What non-constructive behaviors have you seen (especially in PFS) that, given the chance, you'd like to see players broken of before they move into static groups?


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My gut feeling is that turning your games into "lesson plans" and "teachable moments" where you are stopping to explain plotting and encounter design is precisely the wrong way to show anyone how to have an enjoyable game or encourage better game play.

Some things you teach by example, not lecture. Just build and run a fun game, don't try and make it a how to roleplay seminar.


Since PFS happens in public places on a first-come, first serve basis, people tend to not know each other, and they tend not to have party cohesion. Even if you keep going to the same store, and a rogue's gallery of familiar faces keep coming to the table, they don't always show up with the same characters, you still don't develop an instinct for working together. An ongoing homespun campaign may reveal your players doing that naturally.

I find in homespun campaigns, the Appraise Skill gets used much more. DMs I've played with usually like to place treasure in all kinds of exotic forms, barrels of spices, rolls of fabric, statues, magical beasts whose preserved organs are valuable spell components, etc, and if the players don't recognize the value of what they are seeing, they lose out. That's a skill that PFS players never cultivate.

You have an opportunity to create an ecology for your players to examine. What do the dangerous monsters in the cavern or on the island eat? Maybe the ogre chasing the children away from their favorite swimming hole is only doing that because he noticed a Black Pudding bloom there, and he's actually protecting them.

Peasant wrote:
* If the GM is giving out pointed tips, don't ignore them.... * Do not assume the encounter is weak just because you are.

I want to caution you. As the players play, they will be writing the story along with you. Maybe, they will not want to run away from the plot-device-evil-overlord army because it does not fit with their ideas of heroic fantasy. Maybe they will look at your array of clues and draw a completely different conclusion or decide upon a completely different course of action that still makes good sense. Don't railroad them too much.

Grand Lodge

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Don't give them lessons. Just show them a good time.

A great way to break them away, is to have the PCs build off a theme.

Example:"You are all from the same village. Figure out how you know each other".

Now, all the PCs have a connection. No random adventurer, working with random adventurer.

This is just one way, you can get the ball rolling.


If that is your takeaway, Dave, then I have failed to properly convey what's going on here. I chose that particular module primarily because success in its story is dependent on cleverness and observation on the player's part. Adapted encounters were initially designed just to be interesting and engaging. And sometimes that's enough. If the evening goes well, hoorah and huzzah.

Where we have gotten into trouble is when the players have demonstrated a lack of (mostly) social skills around the table. This group has a great deal of trouble with basic things like separating IC and OOC knowledge, keeping OOC personal issues out of the game, marginalizing one another to steal the spotlight or intransigence. We've only had five sessions so far and basic bad behavior would have ended the campaign then and there had I not intervened and rebuked various parties.

Now, I could just walk away. I'm only running the campaign as a favor after all. But instead I've been looking for teachable moments buried inside unfolding events, though I do not raise the topics then. At the end of the night I pull the curtain back, generally discussing how things went in a fashion that depersonalizes events and diffuses the ridiculous amount of testosterone at the table.

So I suppose what I'm really asking for is thoughts on common problems you might expect to see coming from inexperienced and poorly socialized players. This is not the pool from which I usually draw my players, and it would be nice to have a short list to draw from when I'm trying to define their antics as something other than "Frank, you're being an ***. Cut it out or don't come back."

You might be wondering where the dragon lesson plays into this. It doesn't really. I just dislike it when people assume they're such hot s~$! they can tangle with anything they want. That's an entirely separate issue and I should have left it out of the opening.

Grand Lodge

The random adventurer, working with random adventurer problem, as I mentioned.

Force players to find a connection between their PCs.

Also, don't use XP.

Use story based leveling.

This means, at certain points in the story, the PCs level.

They can kill a hundred enemies, but if they don't progress the story, they don't level.

You are the arbiter of when this happens.


To your last, Scott, if one takes something different from a clue than I intended, that's one thing... and frankly more power to them for reaching any kind of conclusion and acting in a self-directed fashion.

Here I was actually referring to a failure of basic listening skills. They asked me what creature types would be featuring prominently. I told them oozes and aberrations. They asked what knowledges they would need for that. I told them Knowledge: Dungeoneering. No one bothered to put even a rank into that skill (it was in class for several) and then they got pissy because I wouldn't tell them the weaknesses of their enemies.

To Blackbloodtroll... tried that. I provided them a common origin and hooks to connect during chargen. Even offered perks for doing so in the form of custom traits for creative backstories. They responded by going out of their way to create barriers to communication and interaction because they all wanted to be the mysterious and misunderstood special snowflake. They've also responded to story-based leveling by trying to kill one another over out of character slights. After all, someone else will do the thing that needs doing, right?

Grand Lodge

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Pregens.

I think you gave them too much control, too fast.

There is a reason there is only one Wolverine in the X-Men.

Wolverine is a dick. Having the X-Men comprise of all Wolverines, is bag full of angry dicks, who can't work together.

Give them a selection of Pregens, and let them each choose one.


I would suggest letting the game get off the rails and focus a lot less on the mechanical boosts (i.e. custom traits or guided tips or suggestions about what skills they should have invested in on character creation etc).

instead I would ask them about their past experiences (i.e. PFS, computer games etc) and see what they all collectively are most excited about doing as a group and adjust accordingly.

if they are newer players I would also be fairly flexible about allowing for retraining/rebuilding of the characters - whether this is letting them adjust some skills if they find they aren't using the skills as expected or even letting someone build an entirely new character if they don't like how their current character is playing I would be very flexible (I'm this way even with experienced players - a home game isn't anyplace I think to ask someone to play a character they aren't having fun playing - especially if they tried something and then decided it isn't working or doesn't fit the game as it is playing out)

I also wouldn't worry too much about the mechanics - about creating mechanically perfect characters or giving them custom traits etc - whether new players or experienced ones they don't always want or appreciate mechanical rewards. Instead i would look for ways to make sure that everyone at the table gets the spotlight some of the time - and reward the players for playing well together by emphasizing the stuff they are enjoying - and going quickly (if at all) through the stuff they don't enjoy.

This may mean the game goes places you don't expect.

On the issue of out of game issues carrying over to the table that's a bigger issue than just in game - that gets to people being immature (a group of high schoolers isn't surprising though I've seen this with older players as well). It may only be solvable by changing who is in the group - but that 's something I would address outside of the game context. The point of a game is to have fun - if people aren't having fun playing together no amount of tricks will resolve that.

To keep things fluid I would seek ways to minimize the amount of system mastery they need to have - pregens are one approach, helping them outside of game nights with character leveling is another - or adopting some aspects of other rules systems may be a worthwhile approach (some of the things in the latest hardcover - Unchained might be worth exploring - stuff like background skills to flesh out characters but also possibly some alternative approaches to aspects of the game that currently require heavy system mastery)


Im going to suggest that your problem isn't what you think it is. Not entirely.

You have players who are new to the game, and what's in it. They've noticed, correctly, that there are quite a lot of rules about fighting. Entire chapters of combat. Plus the chapter on weapons and armor, which are...mostly for fighting. And the chapter on spells, many of which are useful in fights...etc.

So how do they resolve problems? With the games' main conflict resolution mechanic, fighting.

Instead, push them to resolve more with skills. Allow skills to be used on each other. Read either Rich Burlew's or Justin Alexander's fix to the Diplomacy skill. And push them to do more role playing. Ask them to describe things, what they look like, how they feel.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

The random adventurer, working with random adventurer problem, as I mentioned.

Force players to find a connection between their PCs.

Also, don't use XP.

Use story based leveling.

This means, at certain points in the story, the PCs level.

They can kill a hundred enemies, but if they don't progress the story, they don't level.

You are the arbiter of when this happens.

There is something to be said for pregens. I envision using pregens for use in limiited duration campaigns designed to teach your players how to work together more than to actually play. Although I almost never have as much fun with a pregen as I do with a character I make myself. And I usually resent being restricted to the shallow end of the pool

@ OP,

As to your players ignoring your advice about how taking some ranks in Knowledge Dungeoneering and not brushing up on how to deal with oozes and aberrations, I guess you have to burn them at least a little. Have an NPC make fun of them for not bringing lamp oil. Gouge them on the price a little. And let them learn some hard lessons.

As to getting them to work together and be nice to each other, there are limits as to what you can do. You can talk with them about the kind of story they want to tell with their characters, and adapt your story so that each of them has a chance to act out their own stories.

Give each of them a piece of a puzzle so that they have to work together to solve it. Or create encounters tailor-made for the players to defeat if they work together. Or put them up against weaker opponents that humiliate and dominate them because they work together.

You might try the-enemy-is-spying-on-us trick, but I find that attacks party cohesion rather than brings it together. I guess it depends on how you use it. If the players take creative countermeasures and stick to them, such as only talking by casting Obscure Object on a pad of paper and writing notes to each other on that pad, so that the evil overlord watching through his crystal ball can't tell what the party is up to, allow that to work, and allow the party to misdirect the Big Bad with false clues. I dunno, look for opportunities to reward creative and cooperative play.

Scarab Sages

Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:

So how do they resolve problems? With the games' main conflict resolution mechanic, fighting.

Instead, push them to resolve more with skills. Allow skills to be used on each other. Read either Rich Burlew's or Justin Alexander's fix to the Diplomacy skill. And push them to do more role playing. Ask them to describe things, what they look like, how they feel.

I think this is one of the places where PFS is actually better than most APs/Modules. You get your wealth for completing the mission objectives, no matter how you go about them (and many of the objectives are non-combat).

Outside of PFS Scenarios, players are actually penalized in wealth when they find non-combat ways of dealing with the situation. Many of the APs/Modules non-combat solutions reward the players with XP but no wealth. If as a GM you want to encourage non-combat solutions you should up the treasure in other areas to keep WBL (and thus APL) in expected ranges, then at least you're not penalizing them for being creative.

If you want to incentivize them, then make the reward tied to the creative solution, and more customized/larger than if they'd just killed the NPCs and looted their bodies.

There are some item/loot systems in Unchained that are supposed to minimize this loot dependence.


You might use something like the Hackmaster Honor system.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Example:"You are all from the same village. Figure out how you know each other".

A classic is "you're a party of dwarves from the same clan." It's cliche, buts it's easy to role play and does the trick.

The Exchange

Then there would be the "we all go to the bar and get drunk amd start a bar fight" bit :p

Nothing would get done and the party would end up cleaning the mess later(Hey wait! That's a team building exercise).

Maybe get them as a group and collectively give them a talk regarding group balance, while throwing random scenarios on how they would fix it. I.e in a group of beatsticks, ask thrm how they would handle a batch of strix rangers flying above them and shooting at them.

If they feel like murderhoboing things, tell them, in game, like RL, has laws. How are you going to explain killing people in broad daylight in front of the town guard because "they looked at you funny?"


The collective thrust here is interesting. None of it strays terribly far from my own thoughts (including those comments that question my overall approach). To a few of those thoughts...

Pregens & Redesign - In retrospect Pregens, which never even occurred to me, probably would have been a boon. They were eager to make their own characters, but had negligible interest in creating a cohesive (or even functional) party. I am always open to even sweeping redesign, but it isn't a viable option until they stop trying to make characters that render one or more (often all) of the other players irrelevant.

Player Selection - Of the seven players, I only even invited five. Those five apparently had enough fun that they asked two more to join. I permitted this because the ultimate goal is to get them playing with their friends. But it has since become apparent that the latecomers are after an entirely different experience than the others.

The Rails - Moving off the rails is my general preference, but they aren't ready for it. None of them wants to lead, nor to follow the lead of anyone that isn't an NPC. In the absence of player requests, the module moves forward.

Wealth - I rarely hinge the party's wealth on their combat performance. I rarely hang too much importance on monetary wealth at all simply because most of character wealth will be spent on ways to improve combat performance.

Murderhoboing - Been there already, Just A Mort. One of the PC's assaulted a journalist, earning the party's employer exceptionally bad press and earning the PC an earful. In the very next scene he attempted to murder another PC, was subdued and locked up to await trial. He then died in an escape attempt because the player didn't think I was serious about consequences. He still doesn't. He's having his fun by trolling the rest of the party.

Removing Players - With this particular group, this isn't an option for me. If the majority are unanimous about it, fine. But they aren't unified. Heck, one of them got incredibly bent out of shape that I would kill the previously mentioned murderhobo because it didn't fit with his own personal story. Note that... he was pissed because he wanted to basically have the fellow owe him his life and be his slave.

Anyhow... thank you all for the input. I believe I'll tone down the teaching and let them slit their own throats if they can't get it together. I only agreed to run something a bit more substantial than a single-night module. Some measure of responsibility for coming together as a group has to fall on them. If they continue going out of their way to do the opposite, there's only so much I can do.


There's no better teacher than experience. You have 7 players. Keep 3, turn to the other 4 and close your eyes and point. "YOU have been selected as the NEW GM!"

Hand that player your CRB and have him help the other 3 make up PCs. Don't completely abandon the person; work with him/her between sessions to prep a very simple module like Master of the Fallen Fortress. Once the next session comes around though send these 4 into a separate room with a "Good luck and god speed" and let them go.

If not a separate game, delegate some of your own. See what they've learned as you join the ranks of the players for a game or 2. At the very least put them in charge of maintaining initiative, taking notes, posting recaps, etc.

I have 2 games and one lurches sluggishly while the other seems so far to be humming along. I attribute that to 2 things:

1. Players should be engaged: by this I mean the players should know what's goiong on but ALSO have a vested interest in what's going on. Also THEY should drive the story forward, not you. To that point try to help your players understand and appreciate downtime. Got 2 hours to kill on the road? You could make a low-level scroll or potion, do a tiny amount of work on a cheap item, question your contacts, go hunting, etc. Stress to your players their characters should ALWAYS be doing somethnig.

2. Make the game about them: the PCs are the heroes. COC does a good job of reminding the players how fragile they are and how ultimately useless their actions are against the oncoming horrors. However PF is a game generally where the PCs are at the pinnacle of mortalkind, even at level 1. Even random encounters should somehow relate to them; maybe a monster knows one of their names, was a foe of their uncle or is at least from the same village. The plots should involve them and at some level be JUST for them.

Everything else you've mentioned teaching usually develops from play. If they're HS kids then just go back to when you were a kid and think: how did I learn teamwork and fair play? Generally it sank when, just after the pizza got there one dude who didn't pay took 4 slices when everyone else got 3 so in the next hallway when the ogre jumped us we left his level 3 wizard there while we all dove through a door and closed it behind us.

Seriously. Risk your health, drink tons of soda, crank up some (whatever gaming kids are listening to these days) and play every night for a couple weeks straight. Suddenly you'll find the PFS habits giving way to true gamer quirks. You'll get Loner Guy, Dude that Always Looks for Girls and Barbarian-Trapped-in-an-Arcane-Caster's-Body Guy in no time.


Don't forget wants-to-cook-food-during-game guy and every-character-is-a-(pick a race or class).

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