Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee


Advice


I'm trying to make a character who epitomizes the saying. Are there any feats that improve your defenses for moving aside from wind/lightning stance. I'm looking for something that would synergize with the jabbing style tree well in particular, but other ideas are welcome.


well not exactly what you are saying, but there is a feat called butterfly's sting. Basically let you hand off critical hits with a team member. Gets really awesome when You are twfing with kukris or something else with high critrange, and your friend has something like a scythe or a heavy pick or something.


Huh, that is a pretty sweet ability and I could definitely see the possibilities, especially with a swashbuckler/gunslinger or other grit/panache user, but it's not quite what I'm looking for.


Panther Style (etc) does but as another style isn't compatible with jabbing. If you're doing something multiclassing brawler and MoMS monk you could combine them I guess.

If you want to play a goblin Roll With It might be of use. Lunge with the free 5' moves from Jabbing Dancer would help you stay out of reach of full attacks. Just out of Reach would synergise with that if you could spare the feats.

I'm not sure what class you're using; Monk of the seven Forms might work.


Thanks for the tips avr, I had not thought of lunge synergizing with jabbing dancer, that would fit very well with the character vision I've got. And yeah, I was thinking of MoMs 1/Brawler X so I could do jabbing dancer. Panther would work for the quick jabbing/ducking fighting style I've got in mind as an expression of the quick punches/kicks/etc. this would use.

Also anyone know if Pummeling style requires assuming pummeling style as an active style? The feat description doesn't say that the ability granted requires you to be in a specific style after all, while pretty much every other style does mention what happens while using the style and other benefits that seem to apply continuously.

Pummeling Style:

You collect all your power into a single vicious and debilitating punch.

Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit. You can only use Pummeling Style with unarmed strikes (see errata at right).

I was also thinking taking wind stance/lightning stance for the concealment bonus from lightning stance after moving at least 10 feet, which, in my reading, would mean that if I am able to move twice from jabbing dancer, then I would get concealment.

Dark Archive

If you worship Norgorber and your speed is low but your movement is high(possible, believe me) Shadow Dodge it gives +3 AC/move speed through different light conditions. One way is using a mount and being a merfolk riding a flying mount(5' speed, 60'-120' mount speed, mount double moves, your AC is now 3*120/5-240/5=+72-144 AC)


Any of these works:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s45b?As-fast-as-Dwight-Schrute-The-Snake-Panth er


Ok, Helcack, that mechanic is pretty much what I'm looking for, although that'd be hard to work into the idea of the dodging, darting, boxer, although it might work with jabbing dancer at higher levels and a small character, or the merfolk example you gave, although that's pushing it a little to much for me.

Secret Wizard,

I haven't had a chance to look at the melee tactics toolbox. But circling mongoose sounds pretty awesome for the build, it'd also help with the shadow dodge feat if I wanted to go that route. hmm, this could be fun.

Edit: Would Jabbing Dancer essentially give me two moves with each attack in conjunction with circling mongoose? one before, one after the first, then another one before the second and then again after the second attack etc.?


@ Helcack

You do realize that you only gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC once per round, right? This is supported a couple of ways.
1) The feat says "equal to or greater than..."
2) Bonuses from the same or similar source do not stack.


I was reading the feat that way too galahad, but +3 AC is still pretty good.


Ok, Here's what I'm thinking for the Graceful Boxer:

Human MoMs 2/Brawler X
S: 10 D: 17 C: 13 I:10 W: 16 C: 10

Feat Plan:
1. Weapon Finesse
a. Human: Pummeling Style
b. Monk: Jabbing Style
2. Monk: Jabbing Dancer
3. Dodge
4. Brawler: Mobility
5. Spring Attack
6. –
7. Circling Mongoose
a. Brawler: Canny Tumble
8. –
9. Lunge/Wind Stance/ Belier’s Bite/Agile Maneuvers/Combat Expertise

So, he's got pretty good AC, acrobatics to avoid AOO's, not much damage per hit, but able to do lots of them and move around to stay out of trouble/be where he's needed. I liked the build that Secret Wizard had, but trying to fit jabbing style in with panther was just too much. Jabbing with circling mongoose should give him some crazy maneuverability and circling mongoose with canny tumble should give him a +4 bonus on all attacks after the first (until he misses at least) which makes his iteratives only one less attack bonus than the un-boosted iterative before it. I'm pretty sure that the ability scores still need some work. Dex could be boosted at the expense of wisdom for better attack (and damage with an agile amulet of mighty fists) and the same AC. Any suggestions, critiques, tear-downs? I've got no idea what to do with this guy from 9th level on, and I'm sure some of the plan for the stuff before that is wonky too.


Would canny tumble only trigger on a successful acrobatics check to move without triggering an aoo? Or just the act of attempting the acrobatics check gives you the attack bonus.

Canny Tumble:

Benefit: When you use Acrobatics to move through an opponent's threatened area or space without provoking an attack of opportunity from that opponent, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on your next melee attack roll against that opponent, as long as you make that attack before the start of your next turn.

Dark Archive

@galahad2112
You're probably right, oh well. Still better than dodge.

Liberty's Edge

I have a couple of untested builds (PFS legal) that may be similar to what you are building.

Basically blending into a Half-Elf MoM chasis either fighter & rogue, or slayer & hunter & bloodrager.

With the right skills and gear/item selection at level12,
its nat20s to hit them (pre-buffed AC: 37) and they get IUS
AoO each time enemies miss.

If it is not too cheese-y/min-max-y for your tastes,
PM me for the full detailed build. :)

BalancedStatic_JoAT:

FTR = Fighter: Brawler
ROG = Rogue
MoM = Monk: Master of Many Styles & Sacred Mountain

Level01, FTR1 : <Dodge>, [CombatReflexes], {ExoticWP:B-Sword}
Level02, ROG1 : Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
Level03, MoM1 : [SnakeFang], stunning fist, unarmed strike, <SnakeStyle>

Level04, FTR2 : Close Control(+1BullRush/Drag/Repos), [Belier's Bite]
Level05, ROG2 : Evasion, {PressurePoints}, <CraneStyle>
Level06, MoM2 : [CraneRiposte], IronMonk

Level07, MoM3 : Fast movement, manuver training, still mind, <Fortified Armor Training>
Level08, MoM4 : IUS=1d8, Ki Pool (magic), BastionStance, +1DEX
Level09, ROG3 : Sneak attack +2d6, trap sense +1, <VitalStrike>

Level10, ROG4 : {ShadowClone}, uncanny dodge
Level11, FTR3 : Close Combatant(+1/+3), <WeapFocus:IUS>
Level12, FTR4 : [WeapSpec:IUS], +1DEX

BAB +10, +9/+9/+6

B-Sword : +10/+5 at 1d10 +4
IUS AoO : +13 (dex_bonus/round) at 1d8 +9

SpeedyBrustyBrute:

SLR = Slayer
HTR = Hunter : Verminous(worm - no pet)
MoM = Monk: Master of Many Styles & QiGong
BLR = BloodRager

Level01, SLR1 : 1st studied target, Track, {ExoticWP:B-Sword}, <Dodge>
Level02, SLR2 : [Slayer talent : CombatReflexes]
Level03, MoM1 : [SnakeFang], stunning fist, unarmed strike, <SnakeStyle>

Level04, HTR1 : Vermin Companion, Vermin Focus, 1 - - - - -
Level05, MoM2 : [CraneRiposte], Evasion, <CraneStyle>
Level06, MoM3 : Fast movement, manuver training, still mind

Level07, MoM4 : IUS=1d8, Ki Pool (magic), [Qi Power: DenyDeath], <Belier's Bite>
Level08, SLR3 : Sneak attack +1d6
Level09, BLR1 : Celestial, Angelic Attacks, bloodrage, +10'move,
<VitalStrike>

Level10, SLR4 : [Slayer talent : FuriousFinish]
Level11, SLR5 : 2nd studied target, <Fortified Armor Training>
Level12, SLR6 : [Slayer talent : Ranger Combat Style (ShieldSlam)], sneakattack +2d6

BAB +10, +13/+11/+6

B-Sword : +12/+7 (StudiedTarget) at 1d10 +4
IUS AoO : +15 (StudiedTarget + MantisFocus) (dex_bonus/round) at 1d8 +6


Remember that circumstance bonus stack! So you could get Canny Tumble and Disorienting Maneuver both for a total of +4 attack while tumbling.


There is a feat from dreamscarred press, cloak dance that lets you use a move action to gain concealment or a full action to get total concealment.
That way it is not really movement that protects you, because you do not move from one place to another but the flavor is movement.

Cloak dance

Scarab Sages

The unchained monk has a Style strike called flying kick that lets you move and flurry. Unlike pummeling style, you can use it with a style feat active.

Sovereign Court

I think pummeling style wont synergise well with jabbing style; the first makes all your hits into one while the other needs multiple hits to work.


I think somthing like Moms2 swashbuckler rest with Snake and Panther style figthing could be the way.
Level -2 to damage is gonna help with the bee part and there are also stuff among the deeds that will help.
Performance combat also have things that will ad to this.


@Dizzy I had pummeling style in there more for the flavor of that one big punch you'd use to finish off the fight after wearing your opponent down from a bunch of jabs.

@Secret Wizard Disorienting maneuver requires you to move through the target's space, does this include his threatened area or just the square(s) they are occupying?

@Guess That sounds cool, but I'd prefer to stay in paizo material only. I apologize for not mentioning this earlier.

@Imbicatus Yeah, I'm interested in the unchained stuff, but I'm waiting for the PDF to take a look.

@Cap Darling I'm not sure swashbuckler works for the rapid punches part as much since it's nearly impossible to flurry/TWF with the swash and that would require snake style in addition to everything else.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.


The sting part was in my suggestion covered by the AOOs from Panther and snake style. You wont get jabbing style but you Will get the feel i belive you want. If you dont use TWF you get to use precise strike on every AOO you get:)


I have 2 tricks for being harder to hit.

Gain the Scent Ability, take the Blind Fighting Feat, and get an Eversmoking Bottle. The Smoke will make everyone within a 20' radius Blind, including you, but you will be quite functional between Scent and Blind Fighting.

The disadvantage is that you will often Blind your allies, but if this is a homespun campaign--not PFS--then you might get all your allies to each find their own way of seeing in the dark as well. Half-Orcs can get Scent as a Feat, Catfolk can get it as a race ability. Dwarves can get Tremorsense as a Feat. Alter Self, which can be gotten in a lot of ways, can be used to turn yourself into a humanoid with Scent, like a Bugbear. Or just a combination of Blind Fighting an a very high Perception Mod. Or maybe just Greater Blind Fighting.

Once you have that, you have opened the door to some cool feats like Moonlight Stalker and Nightmare Fist: +4 damage between them.

Another trick I just discovered while arguing with Darksol the Painbringer is the combination of a Throwing, Quickdraw Shield, the Quickdraw Feat, and a Blinkback Belt.

Throwing a Throwing Shield is a Free Action, so does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity, even when you throw it in melee. Related to a Blinkback Belt, the Throwing Shield Returns to your hand immediately after the attack is resolved. Drawing a Quickdraw Shield when you have the Quickdraw Feat is a Free Action. So you can enjoy the AC benefit of the shield and still make full attacks with both fists. I suppose you could try to go Full Munchkin and try to execute an unlimited Free Action loop of shield-throwing, but DMs are expressly empowered by the rules to put limits on the number of Free Actions players can take just to stop such shenanigans.

If you are already taking Mobility, maybe you should climb the Panther Style Tree. Panther Parry increases your AC.


Here's another question:
Does the movement after an attack from jabbing dancer apply to the attacks made with panther style against AOO's or a normal AOO?


Performance feats or bard dervish dancer or both would do it.


Anyone who can cast vermin shape :)


Ok, here are some questions that I have on various things that have been brought up in the thread:

Would canny tumble only trigger on a successful acrobatics check to move without triggering an aoo? Or just the act of attempting the acrobatics check gives you the attack bonus.

Disorienting maneuver requires you to move through the target's space, does this include his threatened area or just the square(s) they are occupying?

Does the movement after an attack from jabbing dancer apply to the attacks made with panther style against AOO's or a normal AOO?

Thanks


Here's another thought: Dirty Tricks. You can play Dirty Tricks to make your opponents Blind, then Deaf. There is a level 1 Ranger Spell called Negate Aroma, so you will also be invisible, inaudible, and inosmible. Good luck getting hit then.

There is the Ninja Vanishing Trick. That will have a profound shape on the kind of character you make, though. Since your Invisibility will only last until you make your first attack, you'll need to design your build around making single, big attacks that also do Sneak Attack Damage. I was kind of thinking Ninja-Gunslinger, but how about Ninja, Monk Master of Many Styles with Pummeling Tiger Style? Tiger Claws is all about the 1 big attack with both hands, and so is the Pummelling Style Feat. Maybe you could climb the Scorpion Style tree as well. Be a Drunken MOMS Monk so you will have a steady supply of Ki to turn invisible with.


Brawler with high dex and decent strength.


Another question to be added to the list:
can disorienting maneuver be activated multiple times in a round?

Disorienting Maneuver:

If you successfully use Acrobatics to tumble through an opponent’s space, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on attack rolls against that opponent until the start of your next turn. If you choose to make a trip attempt against that opponent, you gain a +4 circumstance bonus on your combat maneuver check. This bonus on trip also lasts until the start of your next turn.

it's a circumstance bonus which stacks, but if I am able to make multiple acrobatics checks to move through the opponent's space, from using circling mongoose in conjunction with the move from jabbing dancer for instance as mentioned above (which I'm also not sure would actually work), could I activate disorienting maneuver each time for a +2, then +4, +6, etc. as long as I was able to keep succeeding at the checks of course.


I was under the impression that circumstance bonuses do not stack. Could someone cite the rule?


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From d20pfsrd.com, I'll try to find the PRD entry(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary):
Bonus

Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

emphasis mine


I'm thinking that it would not stack multiple times in a round since the feat is probably considered a source and so can't give the same benefit multiple times but it could still stack with canny tumble.

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