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But take the iPad example - an infant may be able to use it when it is charged, not locked, has something for the infant to use installed and likely set inside of an infant safe protective casing.
However after a few hours of use by that infant when the iPad is out of battery, or when the security system locks the screen, or if the infant drops the iPad a few too many times it won't be so usable and the infant is unlikely to be able to unlock the iPad, know how to plug it in to charge or how to repair it if the screen is cracked.
And on the end of that power cable the iPad requires a whole system of power distribution or creation.
And that software on the iPad requires a way to connect to the network (which itself requires power and more infrastructure) and the related systems to pay for content etc.
in short while an infant can, briefly, use the iPad soon he or she won't be able to do much at all with it.
likewise in a fantasy setting introducing a few pieces of technology doesn't mean that anyone, even the smartest of wizards, will be able to make and keep the technology working - it was typically designed in an environment that assumed a lot of shared technology resources (power, materials etc)
In a high magic setting I can well imagine that a precocious infant keeps itself endless entertained with innate magical abilities (consider a Gnome infant - not sure if they get their spell like abilities on birth - but imagine a child with the ability to speak with animals, create ghost sounds or dancing lights or the infinite abilities of prestidigitation - I can well imagine endless curiosity and play.
When the wand runs out of magic, UMD doesn't help. Someone else has to make a new wand.
The game assumes an infrastructure is in place for magical components, i.e. shared magical resources.
UMD assumes that you have experience and/or have been trained in how to bypass or activate magical items and control them, i.e. education.
The two aren't all that different. I'd liken a wand more to a firearm, although the former is way harder to figure out how to use.
==Aelryinth
550 years ago with the entire worlds supply of brilliant minds moving us forward a millimeter at a time.
Slowed, because they didn't share information readily, and didn't educate the next generation, so that new ideas and viewpoints would refresh and renew what was going on.
One mind going at 550 years would be an awesome GUIDE for the process, if they could formulate this information sharing network that guided the process, remember the old and absorb the new.
That's not the same as a cantankerous tinker sitting in his room alone throwing out ideas. The amount of time required to develop theories, develop the tools needed to test those theories, and then build the end result with those new tools is IMMENSE.
That's what technology is...lots of hands and minds.
I mean, think of something like the Saturn V rocket. It took tens of thousands of cumulative man-years of thought and labor to make the component parts of that thing, from theory to execution.
One mind can make a difference. But DO IT BY THEMSELVES? Ugh. WHile I could see a long-lived person who already knew the way building up to high tech by themselves far more quickly, developing everything from low-tech?
Not that easy.
==Aelryinth
More like he's arguing why some elves starting ten thousand years ago in their great pre-history (i.e. Golarion) didn't idly invent high tech, just because they could.
hey, +3 Int modifiers for age means it's even MORE likely!
==Aelryinth
Elf psychology would probably the big limiter there - an elf that tried to study the same thing for 500 straight years would get bored.
It's also worth noting that Golarion is vastly more volatile than Earth, and getting the infrastructure in place to actually move the tech level forward would be much harder there.
Even at our worse, we're not sharing our planet with (a) intelligent monsters who (b) are often outright stronger than us and (c) view us as delicacies and/or slaves.
Hah! That's totally downplaying the immortal mindset.
An elf could study the same thing for 500 years, and not notice that 500 years had passed! (as counterpoint). Losing yourself in your work takes on a whole new meaning when you can live forever.
==Aelryinth
Well, the key with that elf is what he can do with techno magic, which would bypass much of the need for certain technologies, especially a power source.
If he can invent a weapon that can be powered by cantrips...that'll definitely revolutionize warfare. The big thing is if non=spellcasters can MAKE it. That's the revolution.
==Aelryinth
Hah! That's totally downplaying the immortal mindset.
An elf could study the same thing for 500 years, and not notice that 500 years had passed! (as counterpoint). Losing yourself in your work takes on a whole new meaning when you can live forever.
==Aelryinth
No, he really couldn't. See this page.
An elf's absolute maximum lifespan is 750 years. The average maximum lifespan is 552 years. 500 years of study would take him from toddlerhood to death, most likely.
I'm talking Golarion elves, which have been noted to not have a maximum upper age. There are elves around from before Earthfall who are not 20th level wizards.
==Aelryinth
So am I. Those are Paizo rules.
I tend to agree with the above posts saying no.. but if you did want to invest the time/effort into doing it, once word gets out.. the gm should throw every nasty guy at you to take that technology/ put you in a slave labor camp making it for him. =D
Anyone you can do, I can do better!! - GM's everywhere
I think it was noted in Elves of Golarion, and JJacobs has mentioned it several times.
Golarion elves can live to be really, really old. They still take the age penalties unless they take steps, of course....which can mean a lot of years at -6 to physical stats. Happily, there's cloaks and ioun stones which can take care of that for them.
==Aelryinth
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And all of that leapfrogging preamble was based on thousands of years of much slower progress. What you forget to take into account was the critical thresholds in many fields of tech that needed to be in place before you could have the much more rapid fields of advancement.
Well, actually, a lot of it really wasn't. Aside from a few brilliant minds dotting history, there wasn't really a lot going into advancing new sciences for a very long time and we had this really nasty habit of screwing ourselves over as a species what with basically destroying knowledge and culture, or religiously or socially oppressing advancements and developments.
Plus there's the smart-guy problem, which I mentioned before in game-terms. DC 30 to answer a majorly difficult question in a field of study isn't something normal people do. If Einstein's theory of relativity was DC 30, it would be incredibly difficult for someone to ever answer that.
Normal people are like 1st level. Trained/educated professionals still naturally gravitate around the +5 mark in their field, whereas you need a +10 just to be able to have a 5% chance to make a breakthrough in a field.
Which means you basically need a normal person (about 1st level) who has an above-average Intelligence, trained in a skill, invested ranks into the skills, and took Skill Focus, and manages to roll a 20.
But as the singularity progresses, we have greater and greater tools helping us to answer complex questions, a better educational system spitting out more professionals to attempt to answer these questions, etc.
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Or you can give up on the idea that a knowledge skill system that's mostly designed to let characters know what tactics to use against monsters is a remotely valid simulation of scientific research in the real world.And all of that leapfrogging preamble was based on thousands of years of much slower progress. What you forget to take into account was the critical thresholds in many fields of tech that needed to be in place before you could have the much more rapid fields of advancement.Well, actually, a lot of it really wasn't. Aside from a few brilliant minds dotting history, there wasn't really a lot going into advancing new sciences for a very long time and we had this really nasty habit of screwing ourselves over as a species what with basically destroying knowledge and culture, or religiously or socially oppressing advancements and developments.
Plus there's the smart-guy problem, which I mentioned before in game-terms. DC 30 to answer a majorly difficult question in a field of study isn't something normal people do. If Einstein's theory of relativity was DC 30, it would be incredibly difficult for someone to ever answer that.
Normal people are like 1st level. Trained/educated professionals still naturally gravitate around the +5 mark in their field, whereas you need a +10 just to be able to have a 5% chance to make a breakthrough in a field.
Which means you basically need a normal person (about 1st level) who has an above-average Intelligence, trained in a skill, invested ranks into the skills, and took Skill Focus, and manages to roll a 20.
But as the singularity progresses, we have greater and greater tools helping us to answer complex questions, a better educational system spitting out more professionals to attempt to answer these questions, etc.
Given that the identifying monsters is only a small subset of the Knowledge skill and that Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering), and Knowledge (Geography) are standard knowledges, I'll have to politely disagree with you good sir.
Well, Knowledge is about what you know about what is KNOWN.
It doesn't really have a lot to do with finding out something literally new, i.e. concept, theory, experimentation, implementation, validation, all of which are time-intensive and often costly activities.
If nobody knows something, a Knowledge check isn't going to let you find that knowledge anywhere.
Thus, knowledge checks about high tech development are impossible, as the knowledge is simply nowhere to be found. Finding someone's records on how you fit this gizmo into that doo-dad while fiddling with this thingamajigger like so, is one thing.
The THEORY behind all that tech? Which would help you replicate it? It's not anywhere.
==Aelryinth
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I'm pretty sure whichever god created the world (or some other ageless and insanely knowledgable being) knows about it. DC 30 is the upper end for obscure knowledge. However, if you want to play this route, we can do that too. We just exchange Knowledge with Profession and his point remains the same.
Check: You can earn half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession's daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems. You can also answer questions about your Profession. Basic questions are DC 10, while more complex questions are DC 15 or higher.
At which point it's just up to the GM to set the DC for the complex question that you're pondering. Given that everything that we have today is within the range that normal people can accomplish, DC 30-35 probably is probably the highest one would go through and still be consistent.
Which returns to his original point of:
1. Make skill checks to know.
2. Make the thing.
Man, OP sure bailed on his thread in short order.
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The real problem is that all the people who have the intelligence to make technology seem to be snatched up by spell-casters. I imagine that there are many wizards who make a habit of going around with detect thoughts up in order to find high int people. So all the high int people become magic users that don't have time for technology. Technology might be about to do more then magic in the long term do to being more repeatable (no spells per day limit). However spell-casters can't see the potential enough to devote years to the problems when they have so much else to do.
A mage might be able to gain the craft skill to create kevlar with fabricate. However it would not stack with mage armor. And the mage in question has no way of knowing all the potential applications ahead of time. Well in the mean time every spell caster has a bunch of other ways of making huge amounts of money.
There is one factor that might motivate a mage to devote the time and energy to learning technology craft skills. The existence of alien technology. It imply that technology might be able to do things magic can't or at least do it on a larger scale. However there is a rather non-scientific group sitting on it.
The real problem is that all the people who have the intelligence to make technology seem to be snatched up by spell-casters.
The easiest way this is sidestepped is the existence of an area/region/ect with dead or erratic magic, making traditional magic less tempting there. Or an area with a dislike of arcane magic or a love of tech like Lantan in the Realms.
So technology progress is happening. It is just that currently it is thought of as an odd habit of dead magic backwaters?
Also I suspect that even many of the smart people living in dead magic areas leave because well if you could move somewhere that you could become a wizard would you?
So technology progress is happening. It is just that currently it is thought of as an odd habit of dead magic backwaters?
Also I suspect that even many of the smart people living in dead magic areas leave because well if you could move somewhere that you could become a wizard would you?
Depends who lives near you. The smart thing may be to stay put in the dead magic area's safety. Demons, necromancers, dragons ect. Or the area has been spared some magic devastation by it's effects.
No matter the reason for being there, after a while the population would get used to not having magic or even developing a pride in getting by without it.
I guess a good example is harry potter. In those books they have technology however wizards tend to dismiss it or look at muggles with condensation. Just in pathfinder their is less hidden magical world.
Technology exists as it does (being ubiquitious in the real world because of the invention of mass production.
Crafting has not reached the level of mass production, it is still done by smiths in single unit batches. Therefore, it will never reach the level of technological saturation that exists in the real world...they will always be singular items, just like magic items.
... Crafting has not reached mass production, so it can not reach mass production?
That's um. Very poor logic.
Three hundred years ago: Humans have not flown, so they cannot fly.
Today: I could book a flight at the nearest airport and be in the air before midnight rolls around.
The poor logic is your strawman. I never said it cannot. I said it has not.
It is, however, one of the pre-requisites to spreading technology to the point where it can advance as fast as it has in the last decade or so.
Only through mass production has technology become common to the point it is mundane today what was unheard of less than a half dozen generations ago.
If you don't have mass production, technological devices are nothing more than magical ones through other means.
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... Crafting has not reached mass production, so it can not reach mass production?
That's um. Very poor logic.
<snip>
The poor logic is your strawman. I never said it cannot. I said it has not.
<snip>
Er...
Technology exists as it does (being ubiquitious in the real world because of the invention of mass production.
Crafting has not reached the level of mass production, it is still done by smiths in single unit batches. Therefore, it will never reach the level of technological saturation that exists in the real world...they will always be singular items, just like magic items.
The use of "never" and "always" indicated "cannot" instead of just "has not".
You may have engaged in hyperbole (possibly on purpose, or possibly accidentally in a slippage of words); you may, on the other hand, have simply used the wrong terms or wording; but according to your other statements, it cannot, because "never" and "always" are absolutes.
This is what kestral287 meant.
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GURPS fantasy worlds has magic actively fighting against higher tech, especially the development of firearms. Every time gunpowder weapons raise their head, they are quickly fireballed into extinction.I personally have magic have deleterious side effects on technology that are subtle yet powerful.
1) That which is most combustible, combusts.
This means that incredibly volatile chemical mixtures and fuels, like gunpowder and refined gasoline, spontaneously combust. The only way to make them is to make the things actively fire resistant or develop them in anti-magic shells.2) Electricity doesn't always follow the path of least resistance.
Electricity is chaotic, and sometimes doesn't take the easy path. Which means it inevitably slags anything not using magic to control it.3) That which is unnatural is unmade by the natural.
Many modern chemicals, plastics...
Wow, that's a terrible world I'd never want to touch. Worse than the Emberverse.
So, per RAW (even though I wouldn't let anyone use lasers in my campaign in the first place, much less get the skills/feats required to do this) you can make a laser pistol.
The DC is 23, you have to have 5,000 GP in raw materials (per Craft), and you need to succeed on that save until your Craft result * the DC equals 100,000 (price in SP). You can only make that check once a week normally, which means this is going to take a while.
Doing quick math in Excel, I find that average rolls with a +33 in whichever craft (most likely Mechanical?) would only take you 100 weeks. If your GM gives your character a couple years (just shy of 2 if you use the Earth calendar of 52 weeks in a year) of downtime, you MIGHT be able to get this to work. Of course, a single failed check could cost you 2500 GP and add a week to this number, and then there's the fact you need access to a Military Lab, which requires 100 charges per day to be operated. To get that power, you could be lucky enough to find a working Military Lab with a working generator, pay for the ability to use one, or find one that works but doesn't have a generator, which means 10 batteries per day, at 100 GP each would end up being 700,000 GP worth of batteries.
Fabricate says that you still need to roll for "articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship", which sounds to me like "don't bother using this for a laser gun". Sure, you might get some refining of the basic materials, but that likely won't cut much off your crafting time.
Short answer? RAW says yes to crafting but no to Fabricate. It'll be a major pain, plus most games won't be happening in an area/setting where you even have the option. Also: very impractical. o_O They really don't want people doing this.
Wow, that's a terrible world I'd never want to touch. Worse than the Emberverse.
GURPS fantasy worlds has magic actively fighting against higher tech, especially the development of firearms. Every time gunpowder weapons raise their head, they are quickly fireballed into extinction.I personally have magic have deleterious side effects on technology that are subtle yet powerful.
1) That which is most combustible, combusts.
This means that incredibly volatile chemical mixtures and fuels, like gunpowder and refined gasoline, spontaneously combust. The only way to make them is to make the things actively fire resistant or develop them in anti-magic shells.2) Electricity doesn't always follow the path of least resistance.
Electricity is chaotic, and sometimes doesn't take the easy path. Which means it inevitably slags anything not using magic to control it.3) That which is unnatural is unmade by the natural.
Many modern chemicals, plastics...
You're welcome to your opinion. Keep in mind that you just said "Wow, so you have rules which actually justify having every traditional fantasy setting ever. I hate those worlds."
The way around much of this is, of course, to use magic, whereupon you can control everything and it acts normally.
It's what keeps it a magical universe, and the evils of mass production out of the system.
Oh, yes. Vastly mechanized processes are heavily Law-inclined, and generally end up attracting all kinds of axiomatic influences. So building a production line could very easily end up with all your advanced mechanical stuff coming abruptly to life and seeing how they can process yoU!
Gotta be careful with stuff:)
==Aelryinth
You'd be right if Elves were immortal... which they're not. They're also highly chaotic doing the same thing FOR THEIR ENTIRE LIVES, is not exactly par for the Elven mindset. You might get the one exception, but that's one person working alone with no support.Hah! That's totally downplaying the immortal mindset.
==Aelryinth
I am right since I'm referring to Golarion elves, which technically have no maximum age. There are elves that have been around since before Earthfall 10k years ago.
And Chaotic doesn't mean they can't be obsessive. Actually, Chaotic is textbook for the guy who gets obsessed with one facet of life, and lets everything else slide to pursue his obsession.
I think you're thinking 'dronework', where you just do your job and its boring. Going for thirty year spurts between one Eureka! and the next is a different animal, as you're choosing the object of your study and time simply has no real relevance.
==Aelryinth
I'm pretty sure whichever god created the world (or some other ageless and insanely knowledgable being) knows about it. DC 30 is the upper end for obscure knowledge. However, if you want to play this route, we can do that too. We just exchange Knowledge with Profession and his point remains the same.
Check: You can earn half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession's daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems. You can also answer questions about your Profession. Basic questions are DC 10, while more complex questions are DC 15 or higher.At which point it's just up to the GM to set the DC for the complex question that you're pondering. Given that everything that we have today is within the range that normal people can accomplish, DC 30-35 probably is probably the highest one would go through and still be consistent.
Which returns to his original point of:
1. Make skill checks to know.
2. Make the thing.
It's obscure if someone knows it somewhere on Golarion and you can research it.
If it's not known on Golarion it's unknown and no knowledge check whatsoever is going to help you, which is entirely the problem here.
And finding a nameless entity out there who knows the science and can convey it to you in a reasonable manner within the confines of a contact other plane or Commune is well nigh impossible, given the limitations of the spells.
Likewise, the entities that DO have high tech which you might converse with use a completely unfamiliar form of tech that probably has more to do with science then natural laws. It should be noted that the creatures that killed the Divinity had superscience and FTL drives, but didn't have wormholes and don't understand how all of the divinity tech works...despite having +25 and more knowledge checks available to them.
So, no, calling up a god for answers doesn't work, either. Calling them up a LOT might get you on the right road, but then you have to get yourself in hock to a god, and where that might lead...
As for profession checks, if you can steer me to someone on Golarion with Profession (Computer Hardware Engineer) or (Atomic Physics), they might indeed be able to answer such questions. Sadly, such professions aren't present, either.
==Aelryinth
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Kind of failing to see your argument for fabricate not working.
Kind of failing to see your argument for fabricate not working.
Well, there is no reason why fabricate could not work, from a "technical" point of view.
If you had the knowledge of what you wanted to create as well as the knowledge of how to create the component parts, which they themselves are on par with magical items, you'd be able to do it.
Everyone seems to gloss over it when talking technology, but the reason that Moore's law works is due to the sheer number of minds involved in the advancement of technology. We don't have just one person working the "problem".
We have millions of minds out there all working in concert/competition in order to improve this or bring out the next thing that.
Conceptually, given the medieval based game environment, you could potentially have a single dude with the fabricate doing nothing else that may be able to create a pew pew laser or force shield, but it would never be able to be reproduced by others in order for the uneducated public to use it...society (in pathfinder) despite (or maybe because of) the ubiquitousness of arcane magic has not advanced far enough to achieve this.
The same can be said that divine healing magic has a retrograde effect on mundane medicinal advancement.
After all, why learn medicine when you have a cure-all cleric in the closest city ...or you can just buy a wand of cure-light wounds if the peasants pool their money.