The future of Pathfinder


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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First thing first, I don't know if it's the right place for my observation/opinion.

Nonetheless, here it goes.

I'm a old veteran. I began with D&D Red Box in the 80'. Passed the 1st Edition and dived in the second. When the third edition hit the shelves, I passed. Finally return with Pathfinder a few years back.

Pathfinder is a freight train in the RPG world. I see some patterns similar to the second edition of AD&D emerged in recent years. I began to fear that the Pathfinder is in decline. The supplements, the adventures and the rules his extensively probe, analysed and modified. Here, I think of all the new hardcovers for Pathfinder that reminds me of Player's Option like Combat & Tactics for the 2nd Edition AD&D.

There will be an end. My estimation is in less than 3 years. The lifespan of a RPG is ten years.

I'm hoping that I will be wrong.

What is left to explore rule-wise? I think that's the weak point of a game: the rules. The mine of ideas is almost depleted.

The world of Golarion is half or two-third covered. There is place to cover more supplements in this direction.

Finally, the last question: What is next?


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I don't think Pathfinder is on a decline. They may need to go back and revise a few things here and there, but as long as they can at least keep coming out with new races, classes (and archetypes), equipment and setting locales/interesting personalities, then it will continue on.

Like Southern Garund? What's there? Or Azlant? Or Arcadia? Or Sarusan? There is a LOT of room to expand in, and it is only really like, well, 1/3 covered actually...

Rule wise, new classes, archetypes, weapons, feats, etc. Always room to add more.

As for what is next? No clue, but it'll be fun!


Considering the number of changes between 3.5 and Pathfinder aren't that many you may need to extend your estimate for the life of a system: obviously people a willing to play a game that isn't too much different from what they've played before. If we project this into the future Pathfinder need not change very much for people to keep supporting it.


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Aneirin Rhodri wrote:
Like Southern Garund? What's there? Or Azlant? Or Arcadia? Or Sarusan?

Plus Casmaron: it's on the same continent, but we've seen almost nothing for it. There's hope that they're going to cover Vudra once they have Occult Adventures.

Dark Archive

I almost agree with OP.

My first impression is that Pathfinder can't go on forever. No other game has why should Pathfinder be different.

But they are different in a lot of ways. They've built a huge, stable and loyal customer base. They appear to be driven by customer satisfaction over profits, realising that it's better to have less profits over a long time than more profits all at once.

And most of their profits are for the adventure paths which are theoretically story based as opposed to system based.

They can't go on forever, but I believe they have a lot more than 3 years, even though I think they may have reached their peak already.

So, two options really- they reach stasis where they have carved out their niche and they hold it. Not too bad really. The loyalists get their regular dose of game and the company continues to turn a tidy, but regular profit.

The problem is that things change- people change. The 70's saw the birth of RPG's, the 80's saw complexity as the sign of a good game, the 90's went for flavour and setting, the new millennium opted for streamlining of rules and now we have new systems experimenting with themed resolutions for flavoured play styles.

So, second option, they change. If they follow true to their current style, they change with the fans. They ask what the people want, they playtest, they provide.

My guess is that with all the unchained options and strategy guide and such that they are collecting information for a second edition. Few RPGs are perfect, and most go into a 2nd ed. Why not Pathfinder? It's certainly the thing to do if sales start going backwards too much.

That said, they are taking things slow and steady, carefully learning from the mistakes of other RPG companies.

My prediction- 2nd Edition released in 5 years with a big focus on backwards compatibility and a few choice APs re-released and updated under the new rules.

Dark Archive

I really don't feel like it's on the decline, rather the opposite. Pathfinder is now science-fantasy(albeit it always was, just more stuff on it now), and I believe they could go into some serious world expansion. They may have covered Golarion, but they haven't covered many of the other planets in the solar system or even the origins of the Numerian ships. They are slowly moving into creating not just a world, but a universe.

Scarab Sages

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I can't tell you the future of the pathfinder game, but I can tell you the future of the pathfinder boards.

In two months, there will be a thread that decries the rules bloat of pathfinder after unchained and will proclaim the game is declining and will be done in 2-3 years.

Two months after that, there will be a thread that decries the rules bloat of pathfinder after Occult Adventures and will proclaim the game is declining and will be done in 2-3 years.

Two Months after that, there will be rage about the stealth errata x and will proclaim the game is declining and will be done in 2-3 years.

And so on.


There are plenty of places to go with the rules even if we don't get any more classes, weapons, or feats. They can expand or revise existing rules, such as exploration or social encounters. They could create theme books with rules to explore that, like they are doing with Occult Adventures. Hell, they only just got their foot in the door on scifi stuff. They probably have ideas that I'm not even considering.

And the point is, even if they can't sustain the core rule line, it doesn't matter. They largely do this for us. They make their bank mostly on Adventure Paths, which is a veritable endless motherlode. Paizo is doing alright.


Albatoonoe wrote:

There are plenty of places to go with the rules even if we don't get any more classes, weapons, or feats. They can expand or revise existing rules, such as exploration or social encounters. They could create theme books with rules to explore that, like they are doing with Occult Adventures. Hell, they only just got their foot in the door on scifi stuff. They probably have ideas that I'm not even considering.

And the point is, even if they can't sustain the core rule line, it doesn't matter. They largely do this for us. They make their bank mostly on Adventure Paths, which is a veritable endless motherlode. Paizo is doing alright.

How are other adventures by the way? I haven't been as impressed with other adventures as I have with Pathfinder's but I only have real experience with a very few few other preconstructed adventures from other games.

Sovereign Court

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Screw splats I'm here for the adventure paths. As long as Paizo keeps those rolling I'm game.


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Imbicatus wrote:

I can't tell you the future of the pathfinder game, but I can tell you the future of the pathfinder boards.

In two months, there will be a thread that decries the rules bloat of pathfinder after unchained and will proclaim the game is declining and will be done in 2-3 years.

Two months after that, there will be a thread that decries the rules bloat of pathfinder after Occult Adventures and will proclaim the game is declining and will be done in 2-3 years.

Two Months after that, there will be rage about the stealth errata x and will proclaim the game is declining and will be done in 2-3 years.

And so on.

Pretty much this. Threads like this tend to pop up every three to four weeks and burn brightly then fade away. The general conversation is that a few people believe that a second edition is on its way or the game is over and we should pack our things, with voices on another side showing that sales are fine and people are happy, and a goodly number of people in the middle commenting "Oh, is it that time again already?"

The future of the game seems to be to add more options and continue with adventure paths. From James Jacob's thread he mentioned something about working on the ones we have not even heard about yet after those that we have, so they seem to be planning several years in advance and do not seem to be overly concerned.

Even on the off chance that there is nothing left to explore rules-wise -- something I don't believe -- they still have a myriad of ideas for adventures and world-building for decades to come.

There is no "end" for the game unless the company goes under, and even then people will likely still play; a new version is not the end either. There are people still playing all the various versions of Dungeons and Dragons, Champions, Shadowrun, WoD and so on.

The sky is not falling. Nothing is over, nothing has even been hinted as being close to knowing someone that heard something about being over.


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Things that Paizo can continue to do with the pathfinder setting.

1. Detailed splats for each of the non inner sea continents with thematic archetypes, new races, and perhaps new classes.

2. Splats exploring the outer planes

3. Spelljammer style setting using the tech book and exploring the planets

4. Splats exploring each of the planets detailed in the setting book.

5. A splat detailing the dark tapestry and creatures therein.

Disregarding that the first item on that list could be years of work, if sales don't drop off there's really no reason to come to an end, and with PFS being supported as it is as a mechanical balancing factor for the game rebalancings aren't particularly necessary unless they decide that the unchained rules are better as core and put out a 2nd ed.

Scarab Sages

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Oh, we're doing this thread twice a week now?


Would you rather be spammed by Korean Gambling Halls and Massage Parlors :-)

Scarab Sages

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captain yesterday wrote:
Would you rather be spammed by Korean Gambling Halls and Massage Parlors :-)

Oh god, were those not threads for a Kickstarter for an Asian-themed setting?

BRB, calling credit card company.

Shadow Lodge

OtakuQc wrote:
There will be an end.

Well, this I agree with.


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Even is Paizo closed its doors tomorrow my group would still play it.


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The big thing about Pathfinder is that the rules bloat comes down to only one really big release per year.

The ACG was the biggest release in years because prior we hadn't gotten much more in the realm of base classes since the APG.

Occult Adventures should prove to be most interesting because we will be getting new ideas thrown at us, and in different ways.

The concept that this edition is dead or whatever really comes from the 5e bandwagoners. Sure, they could pump out a new edition with different rules, but we're so far into this one that we would end up just complaining that we don't have all the options that we once had in Pathfinder 1.0 or whatever.

That doesn't even go on to mention the possibility that paizo could potentially create an entire new setting, as Farun was to Greyhawk, or Eberron.


TOZ wrote:
OtakuQc wrote:
There will be The End.
Well, this I agree with.

man i love that one! f&%!ing classic

Scarab Sages

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Also, look at the strength of the 3rd Party market. Numerous publishers putting out Pathfinder-compatible products on a regular basis. Small publishers would not be wasting their time if there was not a strong demand.

This goes for RPG-related software as well. Pencil and paper games will migrate as young people join in the fun.


OtakuQc wrote:

First thing first, I don't know if it's the right place for my observation/opinion.

Nonetheless, here it goes.

I'm a old veteran. I began with D&D Red Box in the 80'. Passed the 1st Edition and dived in the second. When the third edition hit the shelves, I passed. Finally return with Pathfinder a few years back.

Pathfinder is a freight train in the RPG world. I see some patterns similar to the second edition of AD&D emerged in recent years. I began to fear that the Pathfinder is in decline. The supplements, the adventures and the rules his extensively probe, analysed and modified. Here, I think of all the new hardcovers for Pathfinder that reminds me of Player's Option like Combat & Tactics for the 2nd Edition AD&D.

There will be an end. My estimation is in less than 3 years. The lifespan of a RPG is ten years.

I'm hoping that I will be wrong.

What is left to explore rule-wise? I think that's the weak point of a game: the rules. The mine of ideas is almost depleted.

The world of Golarion is half or two-third covered. There is place to cover more supplements in this direction.

Finally, the last question: What is next?

People were writing articles like this over 5 years ago. There are still other planets to explore, major cities, organizations, planes, creature types and so on.

PS: There is no default timeline for RPG's in general. Some have been going for decade, and some come out of the box already on the way down.


I would expect things to follow the same cycle that they usually do.

- New game comes out, claiming to simplify/fix/streamline the previous edition
- New edition's creators produce more content if it's successful
- Some not so great content is made, some people decry the system is becoming bloated
- Systems flaws become more clear over time, customers ask for another overhaul of the system to fix them
- Time passes as more content is put out for the current edition
- Designers/publishers feel things have become stagnant and that they need something to juice sales
- New game comes out, claiming to simplify/fix/streamline the previous edition


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I remember back in 1999 when people were saying that Magic the Gathering had 2-3 years left in it, tops. It's 2015, and it's still going strong.

BECMI lasted from 1977 to 1999 - that's 22 years.

Palladium's RIFTS has lasted from 1990 to today, so 25 years.

If we're going on the Palladium System itself, then 1983 with the release of the Palladium Fantasy Roleplaying Game, which is the same rules set that featured in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Robotech (with Robotech being made on-and-off for years, and has served as a minor basis for the Robotech Tactics minis game - this was actually the first RPG I ever played, because I'm an unrepentant Macross fanboy and will immediately buy ANYTHING with the Macross logo on it). That's 32 years of a game system surviving.

GURPS has lasted since 1986. 3rd ed lasted for 16 years (1988-2004); 4th ed has lasted for 11 and is in no danger of disappearing anytime soon.

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There are two major reasons why games fail, and it has very little to do with quality or content:

1) Lack of interest/marketing.

There are a LOT of RPGs out there, and they're all competing with one another. They also have to compete with Dungeons & Dragons, which is by-far the best known RPG in the world, despite being only one of dozens.

As many people have noted elsewhere (including me), Pathfinder didn't become popular by its own efforts alone. Lots of people absolutely despised 4E and wanted to keep playing 3.5 things. The Core Rulebook was D&D 3.75, and that's what people wanted - a game which fixed a lot of problems with the core rules & Classes of 3.5, but still allowed them to use all their myriad 3.5 books without any problems worse than the upgrade from 3rd ed to 3.5. Pathfinder succeeded spectacularly at that.

So, it didn't become popular by being a new game - it became popular by being an update to a game people already loved.

It spread by word-of-mouth among players of D&D, and when people wanted to learn how to play D&D, veteran players introduced them to Pathfinder.

It became HUGE by then elaborating on that game and turning the world and the rules into it's own beast, mostly by walking a fine line between experimentation/innovation and time-tested design concepts, giving rise to familiar-enough classes like the Cavalier & Magus (which are basically ersatzes of the Marshall and Duskblade/Hexblade), and radically-new classes like the Alchemist & Gunslinger (before the Gunslinger, firearms & sharpshoosters were thought to be impossible to work into high-fantasy RPG games, despite firearms having existed congruently with Knights and swords & spears for hundreds of years).

Pathfinder tapped into an already-existing market (players who wanted 3.5 material), and then began a process of creating it's own identity once its name was established. By now, the name "Pathfinder" alone sells books - the fact that it's backwards-compatible with older material is just icing on the cake.

Those games which have survived and didn't piggy-back off existing material, however, have largely done so by creating identities unto themselves:

Palladium's games, especially RIFTS, are the craziest, most unbalanced games to ever exist, and yet it's fun as hell.

White Wolf's games are extremely rich & interesting, and focusing more on the LARP aspects than on tabletop dungeon crawls helped tremendously in setting itself apart from other games.

Shadowrun is exactly what it says on the cover: It's a Cyberpunk Fantasy game. It's like Ghost in the Shell meets Hellblazer meets Blade Runner meets Shannara. There wasn't any other game out there that attempted to merge to do things like place Elric of Melniborne in Neuromancer, and it's lasted due to its unique flavor.

GURPS survives because of what it is: a (purportedly) General, Universal Role Playing System. While the level of it's "universality" is a bit suspect compared to other systems (d20 and Palladium's system are both very-much universal themselves), and requires patches to work in specific genres, but for the most part GURPS hasn't tried to be any ONE game genre - it's whatever you want: western, cyberpunk, high fantasy, space-operatic, Lovecraftian horror, etc. It couldn't really win in any ONE genre, so it's hit EVERY genre, and gave a fluid system which could be ported to whatever genre players wanted - considering Steve Jackson Games is fairly megalithic in the gaming world, despite being a very small company (sounds like Paizo, huh?), it shows how well this model succeeded.

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2) Bad Business Practices

It's no secret that TSR imploded in on itself in the last half of the 1990s. But it's not so much directly because of Dungeons & Dragons faltering as it is some of the worst leadership ever seen ([[url-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorraine_Williams]Lorraine Williams[/url] makes Joffrey Baratheon look like King f$&%ing Arthur by comparison). Denying designers the ability to playtest their games (no playing games on company time, after all), trying to jump into the CCG market that was already flooded with competitors who were all getting beaten to death by Wizards of the Coast's Magic the Gathering from Day 1, suing individuals because they dared to even MENTION "Dungeons & Dragons" IP on websites (thus creating a venomous environment for something that has proven to be a boon to RPGs since), and wallowing in her own self-interests by constantly trying to shove the Buck Rogers RPG to the company's forefront (she's the inheritor of the Buck Rogers franchise) despite the game being an abysmal failure commercially.

Palladium faced financial troubles due to embezzlement & other problems in the early 2000s, which happened to coincide with a serious drop in interests in tabletop RPGs in the wake of the rise of TCGs/CCGs and the fall of TSR. Palladium actually looked like it would close shop for a long time in the mid 2000s, but has apparently survived.

White Wolf's World of Darkness games already had a bit of a hiccup with the end of the first World of Darkness line and the reboot which dropped about half the titles. Flagging sales from the aforementioned decline of TRPGs in the wake of huge TCG games like MTG, Pokemon, and YuGiOh helped starve and already-shrinking market. In 2006, they were bought by CCP, and managerial issues abounded (like playing musical chairs with who was assigned to World of Darkness and who was assigned to EVE Online). Exalted has a 3rd Edition coming, supposedly, but it's been 2 years since the Kickstarter, and who knows when (or if) it will be released.

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Paizo and Pathfinder still have incredibly large amounts of interest, and the business model so far seems to be extremely stable.

If there's anything to worry about, it would probably not be the Pathfinder RPG itself (it's rarely the game itself for companies), and instead be periphery products. Stretch an IP too thin, and it can break, creating a house-of cards effect. However, expanding to multiple forms of media is necessary for a Franchise to survive, as well. It's a fine line that has to be walked, but so far Paizo seems to be walking it well. Being a site that sells OTHER RPGs and games helps Paizo create a safety net, as well, rather than simply putting all its eggs in one basket (Steve Jackson Games, by comparison, ONLY sells its own IPs, but it has enough highly-popular ones like OGRE, Munchkin, and GURPS that it can afford to do so).

If Pathfinder 2nd Edition ever comes about, it will almost certainly be a single book - the Core Rulebook - that gets a change, and would likely just implement popular alternate mechanics from Pathfinder Unchained that don't create massive snarls with previously-published books.

Silver Crusade

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I'm fairly new to Pathfinder so apologies if my comments have been made by others elsewhere. For me the biggest barrier to getting into the game was the Core Rulebook. The Beginner Box and the recent Strategy Guide are big steps forward but for future new entrants to the game I would still like to see more "friendly" ways in. Maybe a "Beginner Box 2" or perhaps "Module Lite" or an "Adventure Path Lite" (which would lead new GMs and players through with rules tips boxes a bit like Everflame). For me the future would also have the Core Rulebook accessible in alternative forms. E.g. Arcane Casters Rulebook. Melee Fighters Rulebook. My players won't buy a Core Rulebook. Once again apologies if this debate is irrelevant or has occurred elsewhere.


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Chocolate Thief wrote:
I'm fairly new to Pathfinder so apologies if my comments have been made by others elsewhere. For me the biggest barrier to getting into the game was the Core Rulebook. The Beginner Box and the recent Strategy Guide are big steps forward but for future new entrants to the game I would still like to see more "friendly" ways in. Maybe a "Beginner Box 2" or perhaps "Module Lite" or an "Adventure Path Lite" (which would lead new GMs and players through with rules tips boxes a bit like Everflame). For me the future would also have the Core Rulebook accessible in alternative forms. E.g. Arcane Casters Rulebook. Melee Fighters Rulebook. My players won't buy a Core Rulebook. Once again apologies if this debate is irrelevant or has occurred elsewhere.

One thing to realize is that the Core Rulebook isn't just for players.

In D&D, there are three books - the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual. They all cost $40, so buying all three costs $120.

The Pathfinder Core Rulebook is literally (Pathfinder IS an update to D&D 3.5 after all) the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide rolled into a single, $50 book.

It's important to keep the basic architecture of the game contained in one single book.

Creating Rulebooks for each group of characters - Arcane Spellcasters, Divine Spellcasters, Martial Characters, etc. - instead of one Core Rulebook would just create more of a monetary investment for players in the long run, and be all the worse for not having the basic rules of the game spread out between 3+ large books.

For those who want extra, specific options, there are a few Player's Companion products called Tactics Toolboxes - Ranged Tactics Toolbox, Melee Tactics Toolbox, etc. They're fairly cheap and very useful, although they aren't part of the PRD like the hardbound books are.

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Your idea also doesn't make any sense at all in practical applications - simply being a Caster doesn't preclude characters from engaging in Melee, ESPECIALLY if they're a Bard, Cleric, or Druid. And the Paladin and Ranger get very-minor spellcasting later on, while the Rogue can gain Minor and Major Magic, meaning they have to have access to spell descriptions in order to choose what to gain access to.

If you have a Caster, but didn't have rules for Combat, yet wanted to wield a Sword as a Cleric (which is a good idea), you'd have to buy the Melee Characters Rulebook anyway.

Then, of course, you have Prestige Classes like the Dragon Disciple, Arcane Trickster, Arcane Archer, and Eldritch Knight, which merge Martials and Casters together (not WELL, except for the DD, but they kinda try to, at least).

The only real alternative to the Core Rulebook would to create a "Red Box", where the Core Rulebook is broken up into pamphlets and booklets based on their Chapters, with each Race and Class getting its own pamphlet.

But that creates issues of its own - for one, most of the Races and Classes are only a few pages each; for another, what if you lose one of the pamphlets or booklets; and if you think rummaging through a single book is bad in order to find rules for something, try going through back and forth between two booklets: Core Rules: Magic and Core Rules: Combat.

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Your players also have major alternatives to buying a physical Core Rulebook:

A PDF copy of the book runs $10 (-15% right now), and all the information is available via the Pathfinder Reference Document.

There's also the d20PFSRD, which is basically a wiki page for Pathfinder and is extremely useful for how it categorizes info.

That being said, only ONE person at a table really needs to own a copy of each book, so it's not like everyone NEEDS to buy one themselves.


I'm grateful for all the replies so far.

I see that I'm not the only one that had that impressions. That means there is a concern (real or not)about this. I'm aware that it will not be the last.

Like I said, I saw patterns of things. I believe that the peak of the current form of Pathfinder is in the past. As it goes now, it will decline gradually. And like everything in the RPG world, it will cease or evolve.

To be honest, my point of view is tainted by nostalgia. I never had an interest in the 3rd edition of D&D. I was infuriated that my entire collection 2nd edition was replaced. My brother take the plunged on the new version from WOTC in 2000. When Pathfinder system replace or continue on the 3.5, my brother stopped. I take the relay. Now, I see Pathfinder takes options like the 2nd edition. Archetypes are Kits. The Ultimate series look likes the many brown and blue handbooks. It sounds like my good old days... my golden years.

Maybe, maybe I was burned in the past. To love a RPG that much (yes, I was a real fanboy of the TSR stuff) and to lose it all takes it toll. I'm now afraid that it will happens again. Even if history is never the same, sometimes it feel similar.

Now, if Paizo will avoid and learn from the mistakes from others. I'm happy with that. I will continue to support Pathfinder as long there is product that interest me.

My personal request will be to urge or plead Paizo to revive or create something similar of the setting Birthright. It's a good time with all the crazyness of the Game of Throne to have a setting that promote political backstabbing, alliance, etc., etc. Kingmaker opened a door, but for me it was just a part of the possibilities. The rules was more for the internal management and few external management with other kingdom.

I could add more things that I would like to see. I will stop now.

P.S.: I'm sorry for the sentimentality rant. It was long due for me to share.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chocolate Thief wrote:
I'm fairly new to Pathfinder so apologies if my comments have been made by others elsewhere. For me the biggest barrier to getting into the game was the Core Rulebook. The Beginner Box and the recent Strategy Guide are big steps forward but for future new entrants to the game I would still like to see more "friendly" ways in. Maybe a "Beginner Box 2" or perhaps "Module Lite" or an "Adventure Path Lite" (which would lead new GMs and players through with rules tips boxes a bit like Everflame). For me the future would also have the Core Rulebook accessible in alternative forms. E.g. Arcane Casters Rulebook. Melee Fighters Rulebook. My players won't buy a Core Rulebook. Once again apologies if this debate is irrelevant or has occurred elsewhere.

I run characters of all types as do most of the folks I know. The LAST thing I want, is to manage half a dozen or more "Player's Handbooks".


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OtakuQc wrote:

I'm grateful for all the replies so far.

I see that I'm not the only one that had that impressions. That means there is a concern (real or not)about this. I'm aware that it will not be the last.

Like I said, I saw patterns of things. I believe that the peak of the current form of Pathfinder is in the past. As it goes now, it will decline gradually. And like everything in the RPG world, it will cease or evolve.

Even if you mean well, you're just one in an ocean of doomsayers who have claimed The Downfall of Pathfinder Is Nigh! for... well, since before the Core Rulebook was even printed, really.

Every game gets this, and it's kind of annoying - not you as a person, just the idea as a whole.

Like I said, people said that Magic the Gathering was in its twilight years in 1999 - it's been 16 years since then, meaning there's less time between its creation and the Invasion Block (when people "saw" the end of the game coming), than between that time and now. Before then, people said that in 1997 when WOTC was bought by Hasbro, and 6th Edition came about with its then-radical redesign of the basic game mechanics. People have said "Magic is dying!" since then, and it hasn't been true.

People say "It'll only be around for a few more years" for practically everything - DC and Marvel Comics, games, etc. By now, I think people WANT the things they like come to a fiery end, JUST so they can say "SEE! WHAT'D I TELL YOU!"

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People sometimes say "well look at all the people who believe it! it must be true if it's so common!"

Except, it's really not.

For one thing, just because people believe something doesn't mean it's true - people believe DA GUBMENT GON' TAKE MAH GUNS!, but, uh... it's been 226 years since the Constitution was signed, and they haven't come for the guns yet, nor do they really care to (I mean, they have freakin' Stealth Bombers and missiles - you think they're really worried about some redneck in Oklahoma with an AK?).

People have, as I've said, been preaching the Gospel of the End Times of Paizo for its entire life, and it hasn't happened yet.

5th Ed won back the top RPG slot at the tail end of last year, but lord knows if that'll hold, given that people already complain about lack of options in 5th, and WOTC has publicly said they don't plan on making Splat Books for 5th (given the abject flaming failure that was 4E, aka Splatbooks: The Game!, you kinda can't blame them).

They ARE following Pathfinder's example of putting out lots of Adventures, but as a whole the department seems a bit more reserved about output than in previous editions; at the same time, WOTC doesn't... I don't wanna say they don't "care" about D&D, because they do, but it's nowhere near a top priority for them, since their flagship product since 1993 has been MTG, and it's currently more popular than ever (yes, numbers-wise, it's even more popular than back when ESPN-2 covered the Worlds tournament).

Even if Paizo goes back to being number 2, it's highly likely to STAY at number 2 - no other RPGs come close to competing with D&D or PF, even well-respected games like Fate. By now, Pathfinder has as much name recognition as D&D to gamers (D&D still wins out for civvies), and people go to Pathfinder stuff simply because it's PF.

For another thing, the number of people declaring the downfall of Pathfinder are less than 1%.

Paizo forums aren't the only place that people talk about PF. The other two big forums are Reddit and Giant in the Playgrounds, and the overwhelmingly-vast majority of players don't even have "it's going down!" in their heads.

AND, of course, that's not even all the players of the game. Just a conservative guess, but probably 50% of people who own PF books or play it don't spend time on PF forums of any kind.

Get a large enough pool of people together, and you'll see "a lot of people" with the same opinion - after all 1000 people IS a lot... it's just not a lot when you realize it's 1000 people compared to 1,000,000.

---

Anyway, I really don't think you have anything to worry about.

5th Ed is popular, yes, but it also doesn't have an Open Game License, and likely never will.

THAT may be a near death-sentence for 5th Edition, but still likely not; 3rd-Party support is one of the key qualities of both 3rd Ed/3.5 and Pathfinder, and Paizo being even MORE generous with it's Pathfinder Reference Document than WOTC ever was with its SRD has led to multitudes more, and higher-quality, 3rd Party products out there, creating a thriving environment for the whole community.

5th Edition not allowing 3rd Party support means that there will be fairly limited interest in it from other games manufacturers and even players; meanwhile, Pathfinder making ALL their Base Classes and (non-Golarion-specific) hardbound books Open Content means that publisher pay attention to them, and fans of those publishers in turn pay attention to Pathfinder.

If 5th Ed survives for a long time, it will simply be based on brand-recognition alone, since Dungeons & Dragons is as much a household term as Kleenex. Mind you, Brand Recognition is a very powerful thing, thus why I'd expect the game to last for a while, even if the PHB, DMG, and MM are the only rules books they ever put out.

D&D also has something else Pathfinder doesn't have to worry about: a gigantic corporation and arse-tons of investors looming overhead, analyzing everything you do. Hasbro has been kinda-good about not sticking their noses into WOTC's business, but they HAVE before (thus why Mythic cards exist in MTG, even though the designers hated the idea initially until they found a way to make it statistically work in the players' favors), and very well may again.

Paizo is a fairly small, private company with a close-knit group who work together directly, meaning there are no giant corporate big-wigs who've never met the devs or played the games calling the shots, and no Wall Street investors to placate who, again, probably have never even picked up a d20 in their lives.

So, yeah; I'd worry more about the longevity of 5th Edition than I would the longevity of Pathfinder, honestly - unless something catastrophic happens, I'd expect Pathfinder to be in it for the long haul.


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On a slightly-related note:

One SMART thing WOTC is doing is they're making their Adventures very rules-fluid, so that they can be played with 1st, 2nd, 3rd/Pathfinder, and 5th Editions very easily.

By now, they've realized they're never going to WIN the Edition Wars, so they may as well change gears and start making weapons for all sides of the conflict; that way, 1st & 2nd Ed holdouts can get adventures for the first time in 15+ years (as well as sexy new hardbound versions of their books printed between 2012 and now), 3.5 players (who are now Pathfinder players) can play new Forgotten Realms adventures with their Pathfinder characters, and 5th Ed converts obviously get their toys, as well.

Oddly enough, this helps both WOTC and Paizo - 3.5 players use Pathfinder almost without question. There are a few people who like 3.5 better than PF, but they are a minuscule minority.

Therefore, in the end, Paizo gets sales from people wanting new options & rules, and WOTC cashes in by providing adventures which are fairly compatible with the 3.5 rules set, and thus with Pathfinder.


I've heard these kinds of claims for years now, not only applying to Pathfinder. Of course there's an end to everything, people just seem to think it's always closer than they need to.
Personally, I feel like there are several years left for this system, any more precise estimations are irrelevant.

People have been talking about Pathfinder 2.0 for so long, as if Paizo should consider throwing out their entire system and renew everything just to make some small fixes in their current one.
But I don't belive we'll ever really get there. With the current release of Unchained which contains a lot of new rules, in many ways, plain improvements and not just a set of side alternative rules.
I think we're looking at the beginning of what most people would consider Pathfiner 2.0, only that it's released as an extention of the current system and not as a separate game.

Bottomline: I don't see an end any day soon.

Liberty's Edge

chbgraphicarts: Mike Mearls said on a Reddit AMA that there's going to be an equivalent of the OGL for Fifth Edition (more than likely it's not going to be a repeat of What Happened With Fourth Edition's OGL.) It's probably going to be out in the spring, when the first batch of errata hits.

Also, from what I've seen so far, the only 5e expansions were free PDFs; Wizards' attitude seems to be "More paths for character classes? Absolutely. More spells? Definitely. More feats? Yeah, sure, some people use those. New races? FO SHO. New classes? ...Well, do you really need more than twelve?"

The Point.

Pathfinder is going to come to an end someday, despite what a vast majority of the board wants to believe.

Fifth Edition is going to come to an end someday, despite what I personally want to believe.

I would rather they both go out somewhat gracefully with something totally experimental like Third Edition did (depending on whether you see the Book of Nine Swords, the Tome of Magic, or Star Wars: Saga Edition as 3.5e's swan song) than crashing and burning under the weight of its own crunch like Fourth Edition did (*cough*essentials*cough*)

The Glorious Resurrection.

When Pathfinder does end, there will be a more streamlined game based on what Buhlman, Jacobs, & al. will have learned; a... I dunno, "Second Edition," if you will. It'll still have elves with creepy monocolor eyes, it'll still have gnomes doing interesting stuff to stave off The Bleaching, Riddleport's still going to be an utter hellhole, Ameiko Kaijutsu is still going to be the most awesome NPC in the recent history of RPGdom, you will still have fighters horribly outclassed by spellcasters around the equivalent of twelfth level, and I will enjoy running a game where my players make me regret ever saying "Okay, guys, you all meet up in (a tavern, jail)."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
OtakuQc wrote:

I'm grateful for all the replies so far.

I see that I'm not the only one that had that impressions. That means there is a concern (real or not)about this. I'm aware that it will not be the last.

Like I said, I saw patterns of things.

It's more accurate to say that Humans PUT patterns on things. That's why a whole generation of astronomers looking through primitive telescopes drew very nice drawings of Martian canals.... that did not exist.

Games "peak" "rise" and "decline" in one factor... sales numbers. Paizo has a lot of people that lived through the mismanagement and mistakes of TSR and WOTC. And they've learned marketing strategies that simply could not exist in those days thanks to the Internet of today.

Paizo does not market or make products the way WOTC did. They're also not repeating many of the mistakes either. They're staying focused on ONE single campaign setting, instead of pumping out a half dozen which split the fan base and support teams. They're also not cranking out a rules splatbook a month.

Eventually the need for new rules kits will plateau out. As for what you're looking for in a "Birthright" clone, pay close attention to the next AP coming out after Giantslayer plays out.

The reality is simply that the total market for every player in the RPG field is a lot smaller due to generational shifts. There are a lot of teenagers who don't have any interest in playing the games their aging parents so adore. Those who are still in the buisness have to adapt to the reality of carving out slices of a much smaller pie. The entire RPG market is a fraction of the annual sales of one major board game.... and I won't even talk about cards. Which by the way, was the main reason for Hasbro's purchase of WOTC. The RPG division was just a collateral acquisition.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

If the doomsayers continue to prophesy long enough, eventually they will be right.

Silver Crusade

LazarX wrote:
Chocolate Thief wrote:
I'm fairly new to Pathfinder so apologies if my comments have been made by others elsewhere. For me the biggest barrier to getting into the game was the Core Rulebook. The Beginner Box and the recent Strategy Guide are big steps forward but for future new entrants to the game I would still like to see more "friendly" ways in. Maybe a "Beginner Box 2" or perhaps "Module Lite" or an "Adventure Path Lite" (which would lead new GMs and players through with rules tips boxes a bit like Everflame). For me the future would also have the Core Rulebook accessible in alternative forms. E.g. Arcane Casters Rulebook. Melee Fighters Rulebook. My players won't buy a Core Rulebook. Once again apologies if this debate is irrelevant or has occurred elsewhere.
I run characters of all types as do most of the folks I know. The LAST thing I want, is to manage half a dozen or more "Player's Handbooks".

Sorry, I hadn't really thought it through.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chocolate Thief wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Chocolate Thief wrote:
I'm fairly new to Pathfinder so apologies if my comments have been made by others elsewhere. For me the biggest barrier to getting into the game was the Core Rulebook. The Beginner Box and the recent Strategy Guide are big steps forward but for future new entrants to the game I would still like to see more "friendly" ways in. Maybe a "Beginner Box 2" or perhaps "Module Lite" or an "Adventure Path Lite" (which would lead new GMs and players through with rules tips boxes a bit like Everflame). For me the future would also have the Core Rulebook accessible in alternative forms. E.g. Arcane Casters Rulebook. Melee Fighters Rulebook. My players won't buy a Core Rulebook. Once again apologies if this debate is irrelevant or has occurred elsewhere.
I run characters of all types as do most of the folks I know. The LAST thing I want, is to manage half a dozen or more "Player's Handbooks".
Sorry, I hadn't really thought it through.

No problem... it's the one common pitfall of many "great ideas".


Snorb wrote:

The Point.

Pathfinder is going to come to an end someday, despite what a vast majority of the board wants to believe.

Fifth Edition is going to come to an end someday, despite what I personally want to believe.

I don't think anyone is saying that Pathfinder will carry on forever unchanged.

Even BASEBALL has seen some radical changes to its rules over time, and THAT game is about 150 years old.

We're just saying "don't expect it to end in the next 5-10 years"

Given that there are many games which have lasted for well over 10 years or more, you can easily expect PF to follow suit.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
If the doomsayers continue to prophesy long enough, eventually they will be right.

"It's only paranoia until they prove you right" - George Carlin


I want more campaign settings! There is always room to grow in that regard.


We really need more campaign setting hardcovers more then anything(except hardcover bestiaries) and I hope we will see more books like Inner Sea World Guide, Inner Sea Gods, Inner Sea Race, etc.


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we need more campaign setting hard covers that aren't clip shows of pathfinder's greatest hits:-p

bring on a Garund hard cover, or even Sarusan or Arcadia:-)


Well yes, campaign setting books on the continents, planets, and planes are especially of interest to me.

Sovereign Court

Everybody is looking forward to the Inner Sea Races book...so we will see coming out in September.


Eltacolibre wrote:

Everybody is looking forward to the Inner Sea Races book...so we will see coming out in September.

i'm not that excited to be honest i already have all those books, don't need the re-mastered greatest hits:-p


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Scavion wrote:
I want more campaign settings! There is always room to grow in that regard.

As much as I enjoy a kitchen sink campaign setting, having more thematically defined and separate campaign settings has it's advantages. The most obvious one is that you are able to tailor mechanics to that setting's tone, difficulty level, and themes.

Think of the kitchen sink setting as a bard. Jack of all trades, master of none.


Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Scavion wrote:
I want more campaign settings! There is always room to grow in that regard.

As much as I enjoy a kitchen sink campaign setting, having more thematically defined and separate campaign settings has it's advantages. The most obvious one is that you are able to tailor mechanics to that setting's tone, difficulty level, and themes.

Think of the kitchen sink setting as a bard. Jack of all trades, master of none.

While I can agree with that, I don't think it is a binary thing. Pathfinder isn't a kitchen sink in that way that "everything all the time". It's basically several smaller settings stitched together. They did invent tons of rules for Numeria, for instance. That said, you are correct that specialized settings are stronger in that regard.


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Pathfinder will carry on as long as people play it.


It seems the spirit others than myself is strong.

I agree with some people that Paizo should expand there line of setting. They could develop other planets from the Golarion universe, create something ressembling Planescape, or just start another setting different to what we have now.

They could create a modular world. Each GM could link different nation or kingdom of what he want in his world.

I will repeat myself that rule-wise, Pathfinder will come to a stop. But, supplements and adventure will have a better lifespan.

Enough conjecture and hypothesis for my part.

I thank you all to have answered and contributed to this thread.

Shadow Lodge

I would love to see a pathfinder second edition. The paizo team has clearly learned a lot over the years of publishing pathfinder rules. They started on the chassis of 3rd ed d&d. The crb clearly reflects those previous assumptions. Then they came out with their own classes, their own design style and everything changed. There's a clear evolution from the original base classes to those in the advanced class guide. There's rules that were added later as patches to "fix" things considered not working as intended, or missing. There are obviously aspects of the game that the current design team would change if they were to rewrite the rules now with all the experience they have making the first version. So why not? I'd love to benefit from that experience in receiving a new version of a game I love.

Liberty's Edge

I would not use Palladium Books as a example on how to run a business. Sure the company has been around for 32 years. But their not thriving. Just surviving. Their not moving as much product as before. Nor making as much money. Hell even game stores in the city where the company is located. For the most part don't carry their products anymore.

So one can't even remotely compare Paizo and Palladium equally. While I think PF is mostly a rehash. They at least included so minor new material. Even regular D&D with 3E and after changed the system. Palladium game engine is a house ruled version of AD&D that has not changed in any real significant way in 32 years. The books have the same copy and paste errors. The look of the books look like they are published in the late 1980s. The owner can't give a realistic release schedule to save his own life. I enjoy the system flaws and all. But it's not the company to follow if you want to succeed in the business.

While I don't think that a new edition will arrive anytime soon. If it does it can't be another rehash with a few minor rules changes. With new cover and interior art. I doubt a unchanged version will sell as well as the current version of PF will. Their more competetion. 5E, 4E, 13th Age, PF 1E, earlier editions of D&D. With that much selection gamers will be asking why they should reinvest in another PF. Even Chaosium with Call of Cthluhu with 7E did more than just reissue a rehash with better production values.

Shadow Lodge

I don't see Paizo splitting its userbase. I can see it releasing an updated rulebook with slightly more changes than what you get in every printing in any event.

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