Unadulterated Loathing


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Shadow Lodge

now I have no Issues with Save or Suck spells but this one gives me some pause especially within a PFS Setting

ran into a player with this spell the other day when I was running a new season 6

this particular scenario the BBEG was a "Fight till the death" in a relativly enclosed space ,and had me call the fight as soon as the spell landed and the BBEG Failed the save

1 day/ level on a lvl 3 spell that causes the target to be nauseated when within 60 feet of the designated creature is a bit overpowered

My main curiosity is if anyone else has had issues with this particular spell

Scarab Sages

Wraith235 wrote:

now I have no Issues with Save or Suck spells but this one gives me some pause especially within a PFS Setting

ran into a player with this spell the other day when I was running a new season 6

this particular scenario the BBEG was a "Fight till the death" in a relativly enclosed space ,and had me call the fight as soon as the spell landed and the BBEG Failed the save

1 day/ level on a lvl 3 spell that causes the target to be nauseated when within 60 feet of the designated creature is a bit overpowered

My main curiosity is if anyone else has had issues with this particular spell

Bards can take it as a 2nd level spell -it is at least mind affecting emotion spell - and bards don't get many spells

Witches get a lot of spells that a large class of monsters are immune but when you are not immune, evil eye hex and the spells are bad. I agree it is an overpowered spell considering the person who the target loaths does not get a save, so you can have a summoner loath his eidolon or caster his familiar druid his animal companion and yes days per level. the BBEG loaths his bodyguard etc. But at least the witch has at most one or two of these - a sorcerer can spam them constantly,

remember that it is short ranged, is spell resistance yes, and

The Exchange 5/5

I saw a Martial type PC do a little over 150 HP damage with one blow the other day - Lancer on a Charging mount (halfling on a Warg - I think he was 7th or 8th level).

Now I have no issues with martials doing losts of damage, but this one gives me some pause, especially in a PFS Setting ....

sorry for the sarcasm - but I've seen several one-shot kills lately. Why is it spell casters get dumped on, but it's ok for martial PCs to kill the BBE with one blow?

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

nosig wrote:

I saw a Martial type PC do a little over 150 HP damage with one blow the other day - Lancer on a Charging mount (halfling on a Warg - I think he was 7th or 8th level).

Now I have no issues with martials doing losts of damage, but this one gives me some pause, especially in a PFS Setting ....

sorry for the sarcasm - but I've seen several one-shot kills lately. Why is it spell casters get dumped on, but it's ok for martial PCs to kill the BBE with one blow?

There's a reason that the evil overlord list includes NOT standing in a charge land from where the pcs enter the room.

MUCH harder to block all the save or dies though.

The Exchange 5/5

This guy gives his mount fly potions sometimes - and has the feat to turn once during a charge - and can charge thru friends.... so it's one bad guy a round. Unless he rolls a "1" ...

Save or die spells don't work on a LOT of things.

In the same group with the lancer, I saw a Witch Slumber hex the BBE guy... only to have it pointed out that he was an Elf (sometthing all the players knew - but had forgotten in the heat of battle).

Players tend to put the monsters down some way.....

Martials damage them.

Casters spell them.

Heck, I have a PC that talks them into becomeing her "love slave"...

The Exchange 5/5

This spell is a mind effecting, short range enchantment spell that gives a save and SR. It forces the target to remain more than 60 feet from something or someone - and can be dispelled.

also, "... If traveling beyond 60 feet of the object of its loathing would place the target in obvious physical danger, the target can attempt a second save to break the spell's effect." so it even gives the possibility (however slim) of another save.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Also why the evil overlord list calls for a ready retreat route

Silver Crusade

You obviously never had a witch in your party, Wraith.

"The man turns around. 'Who are you?'"
"I slumber him."
"We take away his weapons and tie him up."

Fight over.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Blackbot wrote:

You obviously never had a witch in your party, Wraith.

"The man turns around. 'Who are you?'"
"I slumber him."
"We take away his weapons and tie him up."

Fight over.

Dm: You are so losing prestige for looting the Venture Captain Prior to the mission briefing.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Or earning bonuses, depending on who the VC is...

The Exchange 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Blackbot wrote:

You obviously never had a witch in your party, Wraith.

"The man turns around. 'Who are you?'"
"I slumber him."
"We take away his weapons and tie him up."

Fight over.

Dm: You are so losing prestige for looting the Venture Captain Prior to the mission briefing.

Can't be. VCs always make their save.

Shadow Lodge

yes I have had a witch in the group .. and yes I have dealt with high level / High DC Slumber Hex - but even those only last Rounds / level + there are ways around it (if he has friends they can take a standard action to slap their boss and wake him up) and then he generally cannot be hexed again for 24 hours

this one is Days / level ... and restricts you to a single move action that if you cannot move 65+ feet in 1 move action AND if the scenario is not a "Fight till the death" Situation there is no way around it (mind affecting aside) AND its a 3rd level spell maybe Im missing the mark but there are very few total shutdown spells at 3rd lvl with a duration greater than rounds / level

Scarab Sages 5/5

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nosig wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Blackbot wrote:

You obviously never had a witch in your party, Wraith.

"The man turns around. 'Who are you?'"
"I slumber him."
"We take away his weapons and tie him up."

Fight over.

Dm: You are so losing prestige for looting the Venture Captain Prior to the mission briefing.
Can't be. VCs always make their save.

You need to quit targeting Drendle Drang, we all know he is immune to sleep spells.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Wraith235 wrote:

yes I have had a witch in the group .. and yes I have dealt with high level / High DC Slumber Hex - but even those only last Rounds / level + there are ways around it (if he has friends they can take a standard action to slap their boss and wake him up) and then he generally cannot be hexed again for 24 hours

this one is Days / level ... and restricts you to a single move action that if you cannot move 65+ feet in 1 move action AND if the scenario is not a "Fight till the death" Situation there is no way around it (mind affecting aside) AND its a 3rd level spell maybe Im missing the mark but there are very few total shutdown spells at 3rd lvl with a duration greater than rounds / level

This is a rough spell, but as was stated earlier, martial types can also end the BBEG in one round. Color spray is another save or suck spell that can end combat quickly, especially when paired with a Heaven's Oracle with Awesome Display. Anything can break a combat, but I agree with nosig that casters do usually receive the brunt of the "this is broken" conversation.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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I'll be honest. I've seen very, very few situations in PFS where a long duration shutdown is any more powerful than a short duration one.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Definitely not what I thought this thread would be about.

Scarab Sages

nosig wrote:

This guy gives his mount fly potions sometimes - and has the feat to turn once during a charge - and can charge thru friends.... so it's one bad guy a round. Unless he rolls a "1" ...

Does he have he handle animal check to push the animal to act while flying - I think it is DC 25, since there is no fly trick

---
a fireball specialist (wizard with a crossblood dip, sorcerer, or flame oracle) who has the traits and metamagic can do a truly amazing fireball damage that can end encounters - and a 3000gp select rod does it around his friends.

---

BBEG should invest in displacement potions - or hire witches with slumber or retaliation hexes.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

noswald wrote:
nosig wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Blackbot wrote:

You obviously never had a witch in your party, Wraith.

"The man turns around. 'Who are you?'"
"I slumber him."
"We take away his weapons and tie him up."

Fight over.

Dm: You are so losing prestige for looting the Venture Captain Prior to the mission briefing.
Can't be. VCs always make their save.
You need to quit targeting Drendle Drang, we all know he is immune to sleep spells.

He's not just immune he breaks them for everyone around him.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

Wraith235 wrote:

now I have no Issues with Save or Suck spells but this one gives me some pause especially within a PFS Setting

ran into a player with this spell the other day when I was running a new season 6

this particular scenario the BBEG was a "Fight till the death" in a relativly enclosed space ,and had me call the fight as soon as the spell landed and the BBEG Failed the save

1 day/ level on a lvl 3 spell that causes the target to be nauseated when within 60 feet of the designated creature is a bit overpowered

My main curiosity is if anyone else has had issues with this particular spell

I had an issue with it, but not as a GM. A bard in the group I was playing in decided to cast this on the BBEG, only he did it when the BBEG was right next to the exit. The BBEG ended up running away since he couldn't get within 60-ft. of us and the Secondary success conditions required us to make sure no one got away. So we lost a PP.

Grand Lodge 2/5

nosig wrote:

This guy gives his mount fly potions sometimes - and has the feat to turn once during a charge - and can charge thru friends.... so it's one bad guy a round. Unless he rolls a "1" ...

Save or die spells don't work on a LOT of things.

In the same group with the lancer, I saw a Witch Slumber hex the BBE guy... only to have it pointed out that he was an Elf (sometthing all the players knew - but had forgotten in the heat of battle).

Players tend to put the monsters down some way.....

Martials damage them.

Casters spell them.

Heck, I have a PC that talks them into becomeing her "love slave"...

It's important to remember that wheeling charge doesn't actually negate the need to have a target to charge. So if you don't have line of sight to your target, you still can't charge. I'm not saying you didn't know that or that this situation needed that, I'm just saying that almost every suggestion I've seen for wheeling charge is for "charging around corners" which doesn't work as you can't see your target around a corner.

Best uses for it are in an open field where you can charge around your allies or using a flying mount to charge over your allies. In dungeons wheeling charge is mostly as useless as regular charges.

Grand Lodge 4/5

claudekennilol wrote:
In dungeons wheeling charge is mostly as useless as regular charges.

Not true. Wheeling Charge lets you charge through your allies.

The last line of the feat:

Quote:
Allied creatures do not impede your charge, though you cannot attack from or end your move in an ally’s space.

Shadow Lodge

Wraith235 wrote:
this particular scenario the BBEG was a "Fight till the death" in a relativly enclosed space ,and had me call the fight as soon as the spell landed and the BBEG Failed the save ..

For the purposes of PFS, Hideous Laughter is just as likely to end a single-enemy encounter with a failed Will save. As others have mentioned, Slumber Hex or Hold Person are just as likely. Then there's the scenarios you run where everything is undead or a construct. :)

I see this more as a problem with encounters that are intended to be climatic that spend the balance of their CR budget on a single enemy that is susceptible to insta-gibbing - whether from an enchantment spell or high physical damage (whether it was via a spirited charge, a nova magus, a X3 crit, etc).

Sometimes it's nice to have an encounter wrap up quickly to make the endtime of a slot and move on to other things. But when it's the hallmark/signature fight, I think it's up to scenario authors to know about the likely parties and to ensure the CR budget has enough things active that single target effects can't end the fight before at least every PC gets to act in round one.

Dark Archive

Now I really want to try to slumber the VC in the mission briefing...

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

ARGH! wrote:
Now I really want to try to slumber the VC in the mission briefing...

Just remember that Boxed Text provides immunity to everything for the duration of the text.

Sovereign Court 4/5

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More than a few VCs have used a slumber hex on me. Usually two sentences into the strange incantations they call "mission briefings," and I'm out like a light.

Will Save: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (10) + 1 = 11

Grand Lodge 2/5

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Jeff Merola wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
In dungeons wheeling charge is mostly as useless as regular charges.

Not true. Wheeling Charge lets you charge through your allies.

The last line of the feat:

Quote:
Allied creatures do not impede your charge, though you cannot attack from or end your move in an ally’s space.

Thank you. I'd forgotten about that line of the feat. Not nearly as not-useful as I'd remembered.

wakedown wrote:
I see this more as a problem with encounters that are intended to be climatic that spend the balance of their CR budget on a single enemy that is susceptible to insta-gibbing - whether from an enchantment spell or high physical damage (whether it was via a spirited charge, a nova magus, a X3 crit, etc).

I hate scenarios that dump all their "CR budget" into a single encounter. All it does it make it entirely likely that someone on the low end of the level range is going to die. Scenarios like this should be clearly marked that they were specifically written to kill characters and shouldn't be run at game days without explicit advertising.

p.s. I'm not bitter and I haven't actually died to any like this, but it just doesn't distribute the fun evenly because you steamroll everything until the end and then have to literally pull out every last trick (or save or suck like the topic at hand suggests) to eek your way through.

Silver Crusade

claudekennilol wrote:
wakedown wrote:
I see this more as a problem with encounters that are intended to be climatic that spend the balance of their CR budget on a single enemy that is susceptible to insta-gibbing - whether from an enchantment spell or high physical damage (whether it was via a spirited charge, a nova magus, a X3 crit, etc).

I hate scenarios that dump all their "CR budget" into a single encounter. All it does it make it entirely likely that someone on the low end of the level range is going to die. Scenarios like this should be clearly marked that they were specifically written to kill characters and shouldn't be run at game days without explicit advertising.

p.s. I'm not bitter and I haven't actually died to any like this, but it just doesn't distribute the fun evenly because you steamroll everything until the end and then have to literally pull out every last trick (or save or suck like the topic at hand suggests) to eek your way through.

So, Fortress of the Nail?

Dark Archive 3/5

Jason Hanlon wrote:
Definitely not what I thought this thread would be about.

I know. Can we *finally* get a ruling on whether or not singing this number as part of the spell gives a bonus to the DC? so tired of table variation.

The Exchange 5/5

bdk86 wrote:
Jason Hanlon wrote:
Definitely not what I thought this thread would be about.
I know. Can we *finally* get a ruling on whether or not singing this number as part of the spell gives a bonus to the DC? so tired of table variation.

wait, I wouldn't consider a minus 4 a bonus...


Couple weeks ago had a witch quicken evil eye persistent rod baleful polymorph the main guy. Wasn't mad more like wow, yup that'll do it.
As a player I've set up melee one shots on bbeg and area crowd controls that completely throw out the game plan.
It is the pcs job to complete missions for the society in an effective manner thus there is no problem when they build a character or have options that allow that. As players we have a duty to our fellow players not to abuse whatever we can do as to let everyone get a chance to do things. As a gm we have the duty to tell the story and sometime there is no exciting ending.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

"Quicken Evil Eye"?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

nosig wrote:
Can't be. VCs always make their save.

Incorrect. We have evidence in a published scenario that it happens.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
"Quicken Evil Eye"?

Probably quickened ill omen. :)


Yes thank you, kalindlara.

The Exchange 5/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
nosig wrote:
Can't be. VCs always make their save.
Incorrect. We have evidence in a published scenario that it happens.

there are big differences between "Backgroud setting" and "PC setting". All kinds of things can happen in "background" and "boxed text" that can't happen when the PCs are on the stage...

Shadow Lodge 5/5

nosig wrote:
All kinds of things can happen in "background" and "boxed text" that can't happen when the PCs are on the stage...

Then how is there a boon on a chronicle specifically about the PCs failing to save a VC? :P

4/5

I was debating killing a PC with a CR equivalent fight (for the entire group, vs only him) as the only mechanical action left open to me after he repeatedly refused to take a different action than the scenario required. A VO pointed out to me that "oh you get knocked out" was an entirely valid option.

Sometimes you just have to blocktext things so adventures run smoothly. I'm sure that is a lot better than trying to bruteforce things with mechanics.

"This unstatted venture captain surely has a bead of newt prevention" vs "oh, look at that, he made his save, now can we get back to the scenario"

A similar scenario occured when I was a player. 3/6 people at the table could always act in the surprise round. The GMs solution was to have stuff happen in a "pre" surprise round where NPCs got in position for an ambush, and then combat broke out of the subsequent round. The payoff was the scenario ran as written, rather than us stiffling the NPCs attempts entirely as they tried to get in position for the ambush, that would have sent the scenario off the rails quickly.

Scarab Sages

How I've always done things regarding save or sucks ending combat in 2 rounds, or the PCs winning initiative and doing the same with pure damage, is the following:

If we are playing down, and this was the final combat with nothing else happening in the scenario, and we have time in the slot, I'll offer to run the encounter at the higher tier just for the fun of it. Since it isn't legal for them to be fighting the encounter, I don't have them mark wand charges and such permanently, since they get nothing but the enjoyment of playing a harder encounter. This ended up being a lot more common in early seasons, where the big bad bit it in one round.

I do something similar if we are in the high-tier, but a save or suck spell ended it quickly. Again, the PCs already won and such, but I still offer to run it again, but this time, the big bad made the save, or his SR worked, or whatever. This way, the character who specialized in save or sucks gets to shine, and everyone else gets to have an "epic" battle if they so choose.

Of course, I do this after we make the sure the scenario is "finished". I don't want the PCs missing on the 2nd prestige since we had our fun extra, no consequence encounter.

Shadow Lodge

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David_Bross wrote:
A similar scenario occured when I was a player. 3/6 people at the table could always act in the surprise round. The GMs solution was to have stuff happen in a "pre" surprise round where NPCs got in position for an ambush, and then combat broke out of the subsequent round. The payoff was the scenario ran as written, rather than us stiffling the NPCs attempts entirely as they tried to get in position for the ambush, that would have sent the scenario off the rails quickly.

So, the GM cheated to negate specific player investment in their characters, and you're okay with that? In an organized play environment, especially, if I put in the effort to make my character do something most can't, I certainly wouldn't want it invalidated by GM fiat.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I can kind of see where your GM was going, though. Sometimes the scenario assumes the NPCs have surprise, and their actions are predetermined to fill up that assumed time.

If your PCs always act in surprise, I'd still interpret the NPCs to be at their assigned "start points". The players shouldn't know the NPCs were going to do X during surprise, so whether they spend their round moving into position, or that's just where the figs begin, none the wiser.

The scenario is being run as written, either way.

My recent comparative analogy:

I ran a dungeon where the PCs first encounter the BBEG's Familiar. The critter telepathically alerts boss when it sees the PCs, and PCs appropriately stomp it into oblivion.

The BBEG's tactics state that if he's been alerted by his Familiar, he preps X, Y, and Z.

After some minutes of adventuring (and quite a bit of noise) the PCs arrive at the BBEG's door and bust in.

I had him fully buffed, as his tactics stated, because "he was alerted". Even though, if he'd buffed when he was alerted, those buffs would have ended their durations.

It's almost like Schrödinger's cat, but for PFS. You never know if the BBEG is buffed until you open the door.

IMO, that's "running as written".

1/5

Nefreet wrote:

I can kind of see where your GM was going, though. Sometimes the scenario assumes the NPCs have surprise, and their actions are predetermined to fill up that assumed time.

If your PCs always act in surprise, I'd still interpret the NPCs to be at their assigned "start points". The players shouldn't know the NPCs were going to do X during surprise, so whether they spend their round moving into position, or that's just where the figs begin, none the wiser.

The scenario is being run as written, either way.

My recent comparative analogy:

I ran a dungeon where the PCs first encounter the BBEG's Familiar. The critter telepathically alerts boss when it sees the PCs, and PCs appropriately stomp it into oblivion.

The BBEG's tactics state that if he's been alerted by his Familiar, he preps X, Y, and Z.

After some minutes of adventuring (and quite a bit of noise) the PCs arrive at the BBEG's door and bust in.

I had him fully buffed, as his tactics stated, because "he was alerted". Even though, if he'd buffed when he was alerted, those buffs would have ended their durations.

It's almost like Schrödinger's cat, but for PFS. You never know if the BBEG is buffed until you open the door.

IMO, that's "running as written".

What do you do when the PCs realize that they have made a lot of noise and delay kicking in the door to allow buffs to wear off? I have done that before.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

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thorin001 wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I can kind of see where your GM was going, though. Sometimes the scenario assumes the NPCs have surprise, and their actions are predetermined to fill up that assumed time.

If your PCs always act in surprise, I'd still interpret the NPCs to be at their assigned "start points". The players shouldn't know the NPCs were going to do X during surprise, so whether they spend their round moving into position, or that's just where the figs begin, none the wiser.

The scenario is being run as written, either way.

My recent comparative analogy:

I ran a dungeon where the PCs first encounter the BBEG's Familiar. The critter telepathically alerts boss when it sees the PCs, and PCs appropriately stomp it into oblivion.

The BBEG's tactics state that if he's been alerted by his Familiar, he preps X, Y, and Z.

After some minutes of adventuring (and quite a bit of noise) the PCs arrive at the BBEG's door and bust in.

I had him fully buffed, as his tactics stated, because "he was alerted". Even though, if he'd buffed when he was alerted, those buffs would have ended their durations.

It's almost like Schrödinger's cat, but for PFS. You never know if the BBEG is buffed until you open the door.

IMO, that's "running as written".

What do you do when the PCs realize that they have made a lot of noise and delay kicking in the door to allow buffs to wear off? I have done that before.

Teleport away with treasure/kill hostages/destroy documents/otherwise escape with their lives and/or plans intact.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Flee with all of my gold , items and prestige

1/5

Jayson MF Kip wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I can kind of see where your GM was going, though. Sometimes the scenario assumes the NPCs have surprise, and their actions are predetermined to fill up that assumed time.

If your PCs always act in surprise, I'd still interpret the NPCs to be at their assigned "start points". The players shouldn't know the NPCs were going to do X during surprise, so whether they spend their round moving into position, or that's just where the figs begin, none the wiser.

The scenario is being run as written, either way.

My recent comparative analogy:

I ran a dungeon where the PCs first encounter the BBEG's Familiar. The critter telepathically alerts boss when it sees the PCs, and PCs appropriately stomp it into oblivion.

The BBEG's tactics state that if he's been alerted by his Familiar, he preps X, Y, and Z.

After some minutes of adventuring (and quite a bit of noise) the PCs arrive at the BBEG's door and bust in.

I had him fully buffed, as his tactics stated, because "he was alerted". Even though, if he'd buffed when he was alerted, those buffs would have ended their durations.

It's almost like Schrödinger's cat, but for PFS. You never know if the BBEG is buffed until you open the door.

IMO, that's "running as written".

What do you do when the PCs realize that they have made a lot of noise and delay kicking in the door to allow buffs to wear off? I have done that before.

Teleport away with treasure/kill hostages/destroy documents/otherwise escape with their lives and/or plans intact.

Then why was the BBEG still there with his loot when it took minutes for the PCs to arrive and buffs would have worn off if applied immediately?

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I don't think you're familiar with the concept of Schrödinger's cat.

1/5

Nefreet wrote:
I don't think you're familiar with the concept of Schrödinger's cat.

Yes I am, but that is metagaming of the worst sort on the part of the GM.

Scarab Sages

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To be totally honest one of the most amusing things I've seen in Pathfinder was a villain casting and unnatural lust on one party member and unnatural loathing on another. It wasn't quite Benny Hill territory but it was getting there :).

5/5

Zauron13 wrote:
How I've always done things regarding save or sucks ending combat in 2 rounds, or the PCs winning initiative and doing the same with pure damage, is the following:

I ran The Waking Rune tonight and the end boss died before he got to act, the perils of losing initiative to a gunslinger and an archer ranger. We had a bit of a chat about what could have happened and wrapped things up.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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thorin001 wrote:

Yes I am, but that is metagaming of the worst sort on the part of the GM.

I encourage such metagaming if it will make a good game.

5/5

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Jayson MF Kip wrote:
Teleport away with treasure/kill hostages/destroy documents/otherwise escape with their lives and/or plans intact.

Alternatively they take that time to buff themselves and teleport behind the group to take them by surprise. One of my bugbears about PFS play is people assuming that the environment doesn't react to their presence or that opposition sitting right next door will totally ignore the screams and wails of the dying and just follow their scripted tactics. If experienced murder hobo's are brutalising your outer guards you are going to take action to protect yourself.

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