Unadulterated Loathing


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Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
thorin001 wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I don't think you're familiar with the concept of Schrödinger's cat.
Yes I am, but that is metagaming of the worst sort on the part of the GM.

I disagree.

The encounter is set up to run a certain way.

If A,
Then B

If [NPC is alerted],
Then [Combat begins with him being buffed]

It's actually not metagamey. That would mean I was running the encounter with outside knowledge.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

That is very metagamey. Look how you ve defined it, then try to put the same idea in character

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Consider the actual setup (and I've encountered several scenarios like this):

Familiar notifies boss, at the beginning of the dungeon.

Boss is ready and waiting, at the end of the dungeon.

Even if the PCs rushed through the entire dungeon, triggering every encounter along the way, at least one of the boss's buffs (at 1 rd/level duration) would be expended by the time they found him.

If they actually take the time to search the dungeon, every buff he would have used will have expired.

So, when does he cast them?

You just have to assume, as I've laid out above, that he starts the (eventual) battle buffed.

It's the only way I see that makes sense.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Most often they're notified by the PCs shuffling around outside of their rooms. Or the fight just before the boss.

In the case of the hypothetical familiar, its probably going to say "they're 3 minutes out boss" in which case if the party is signifigantly faster than expected there will be less buffing and if they're a lot slower he may not still be there

Grand Lodge 3/5 Venture-Agent, Washington—Bellevue aka Divvox2

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Except doing that changes how the scenario was written, impacting the game mechanics. It's not there to make sense, it's there to set a difficulty level.

Just go with it, it's Art Fair.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Run as written is overwritten by unespected tactics. You have to adapt to the weird things the party does in character.

Sovereign Court

Unadulterated Loathing wrote:
You fill the target with a terrible loathing aimed at a specific creature. At the time of the casting, you designate a single creature as the object of the target's revulsion. Thereafter, the target does all it can to remain at least 60 feet away from the object of its loathing. As soon as the target moves within this range, it becomes nauseated until it can again get away from the object of its revulsion. If traveling beyond 60 feet of the object of its loathing would place the target in obvious physical danger, the target can attempt a second save to break the spell's effect.

If this SoS spell hits the BBEG "unacceptably early"* in the climax fight, I see at least two ways to preserve the encounter. (not including just fudging the will save in the first place, of course)

Bold text "out": The spell can be interpreted (RAI'd) as intended to keep the victim away from some thing rather than being a day/level Nauseate combat debuff as it's likely being used. The bold text says the nauseate only happens when the victim approaches the designated thing. Not that it's nauseated when the designated thing goes over to the victim.

Italics text "out": "Obvious physical danger" is a loophole you can do a loop-de-loop with a 747 through. As soon as the victim is engaged in melee, leaving that threatened reach provokes an AoO, and you can say an AoO is "obvious physical danger" and warrants the 2nd will save.

*= this can be round 1, or before the BBEG has had a chance to do whatever cool trick it has, or whatever the GM feels is "too soon to end the fight already".

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Run as written is overwritten by unespected tactics. You have to adapt to the weird things the party does in character.

100% agree.

But I don't believe the case I've laid out for you falls in that category.

Sczarni 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Run as written is overwritten by unespected tactics. You have to adapt to the weird things the party does in character.

This is really true. Often enough, encounter becomes much more difficult if you think outside the box. A little threat to kill "their downed friend" is all it needs to increase encounter difficulty from moderate, to deadly for example.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Nefreet wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Run as written is overwritten by unespected tactics. You have to adapt to the weird things the party does in character.

100% agree.

But I don't believe the case I've laid out for you falls in that category.

Waiting outside the door for the guys buffs to run out is pretty unexpected.

Dark Archive

Malag wrote:
This is really true. Often enough, encounter becomes much more difficult if you think outside the box. A little threat to kill "their downed friend" is all it needs to increase encounter difficulty from moderate, to deadly for example.

I resemble that remark >.<

I really need to quit trying to act like James Bond sneaking around doing things quietly and skillfully and with minimal loss of life, and just let the barbarian smash things outside narrow diplomatic-specialized circumstances :)

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Run as written is overwritten by unespected tactics. You have to adapt to the weird things the party does in character.

100% agree.

But I don't believe the case I've laid out for you falls in that category.

Waiting outside the door for the guys buffs to run out is pretty unexpected.

I agree. Had they doorbell ditched, that would have been different.

Grand Lodge

Unadulturated Loathing... new season 6 scenario... called the fight as soon as BBEG failed his save.

Oh hey. Hey, that was me. That was my fault! Sorry about that!

Yeah, this spell can be kind of silly sometimes but hey, it does have drawbacks!

To be fair, in this particular circumstance... we'd been fighting primarily things that either died before I got a chance to do anything but cast haste, or things that were 100% immune to most of my sorcerous tricks. So when this guy showed up, I saw my moment to shine and I took it!

Also do keep in mind because of the spell's terribly short range (most of my spells have that failing!) I had to do a totally kick-ass flying vault off a 20-foot ledge, while hasted, so I could maneuver into range to cast that spell.

Anyway, BBEG was totally cool with us tying him up and taking him back to cash in that bounty on his head, right? I mean, I'm still not sure about what the other dudes in the party were planning but I was totally up for taking him in peacibly, maybe after befriending him and stuff along the way! (No hard feelings about filing him with pure revulsion toward the party's Brawler, right?)

Sczarni 4/5

Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:


I really need to quit trying to act like James Bond sneaking around doing things quietly and skillfully and with minimal loss of life, and just let the barbarian smash things outside narrow diplomatic-specialized circumstances :)

Yes, unfortunately, sneaking is usually less rewarding option in general. It's good if you manage to scout slightly area and predict possible attack or ambush so you can prepare for it, but otherwise, playing J.B. isn't exactly great idea.

Dark Archive

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Malag wrote:
Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:


I really need to quit trying to act like James Bond sneaking around doing things quietly and skillfully and with minimal loss of life, and just let the barbarian smash things outside narrow diplomatic-specialized circumstances :)
Yes, unfortunately, sneaking is usually less rewarding option in general. It's good if you manage to scout slightly area and predict possible attack or ambush so you can prepare for it, but otherwise, playing J.B. isn't exactly great idea.

Not really sneaky, so much as a deceiver and talker - being able to talk your way past the entire den full of pirates to get to the boss is great, but only if that boss doesn't catch on to the deception, alert the rest of them, and then not only not bypass the underlings, but smush everything into one big fight >.< (Yes, pretty much this precise thing happened - we were trying to kidnap the boss right from under the others noses so that we could extract information from him at our leisure).

Grand Lodge

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Malag, Tiger Lily: I must respectfully disagree!

Any adventure where we manage to connive our way through, sparing the lives of the misguided souls we met along the way by use of our wit and charm... that's worth any amount of risk we place ourselves in!

Grand Lodge

I've personally seen that character diplomacy her way out of more than one sticky situation. Though the particular incident in question, left them in a very interesting and sticky one instead.

Shadow Lodge

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Tanoshi wrote:
To be fair, in this particular circumstance... we'd been fighting primarily things that either died before I got a chance to do anything but cast haste, or things that were 100% immune to most of my sorcerous tricks. So when this guy showed up, I saw my moment to shine and I took it!

How dare you. Don't you know your moment to shine is supposed to be a solemn occasion where you do something only marginally better than anyone else can. You're not allowed to bust up in there all fabulous covered in sequins screaming "I'm HERE!" Please try to shine more dully in the future. ;)

From the GM side of things, I can see how frustrating it is to have the "end boss" taken out in the first round. But I try to take a step back and realize that my players put in time and effort to be as good as they are, and it would be selfish of me not to allow them to do the things they worked to be good at doing.

Grand Lodge

NO! I am fabulous for a reason!

Though, I do believe my most... *ahem*... shining moment was that time I smeared an oil of daylight all over myself, then bluffed that scary demon into believing he wasn't going to be able to wink it out willy-nilly with his deeper darkness ability.

But we're getting off track! BartonOliver, do tell about this very interesting situation. Though, if you don't mind, I do think I'll be getting out my journal to mark down some notes. Might be nice to find some new tales to share with my Lord of Delectation after all!

Sovereign Court

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The most important thing is that people have fun. It sounds like the players had fun at the table, so mission accomplished.

I've played in (and run) games where the BBEG has a super cool build and has a bunch of really interesting tricks and tactics. Having those encounters get shut down with a SoS can be a huge bummer for the GM. It's also important for the GM to enjoy themselves, and in this case it sounds like it was at least a little bit disappointing.

My suggestion is to accept that the SoS stuck, and then see if the table wants to run the encounter as if the SoS had never been used without PC risk. At least then the GM has a chance to have fun running the BBEG and the players get to see a cool encounter for free.

Grand Lodge

Oh his character went to a small base, where using Bluff/Disguise he and his crew were able to explore the whole base, find the mini-BBEG and used a charm/compulsion spell to get him to follow them out to the boat. Where they began to question him. A threatening situation came up and he made the second save, leading to a fight on the boat and while they had pulled off shore they hadn't left in case they still needed something from the base. A battle ensued on the boat, but henchman ashore noticed and started lobbing arrows into the fight as well as getting the rest of the unharmed henchmen to come running. (If they had full out killed the mini-BBEG they would have need to go back into the base where all the henchmen were now gathering to fight them, but they ended up being getting him down or tied up and actually just got the boat turned down river and ran away)

Sczarni 4/5

Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:


Not really sneaky, so much as a deceiver and talker - being able to talk your way past the entire den full of pirates to get to the boss is great, but only if that boss doesn't catch on to the deception, alert the rest of them, and then not only not bypass the underlings, but smush everything into one big fight >.< (Yes, pretty much this precise thing happened - we were trying to kidnap the boss right from under the others noses so that we could extract information from him at our leisure).

I fully endorse this style of play! I have been rewarding people actually trying to do so in my games but most of them prefer kicking bad guys butts anyway :/

Sczarni 4/5

Tanoshi wrote:

Malag, Tiger Lily: I must respectfully disagree!

Any adventure where we manage to connive our way through, sparing the lives of the misguided souls we met along the way by use of our wit and charm... that's worth any amount of risk we place ourselves in!

Of course, it is a waste to not spare the misguided souls. I am sure that one day they will be grateful to you for what you have done for them.

Grand Lodge

Hmm, that tale wasn't quite as tantalizing as I was hoping!

But, for similar situations that could arise in the future, might I suggest investing in a good set of manacles? Perhaps more than one?

Granted, the Charm Person effect might end up dropping once he realizes you've got no real intentions of making good on the whole "let's have some fun with these" thing. But by that point, the BBEG should be properly secured and it shouldn't matter all too much.

1/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
thorin001 wrote:

Yes I am, but that is metagaming of the worst sort on the part of the GM.

I encourage such metagaming if it will make a good game.

Having whatever choice the characters make be wrong make it a good game for you? Remind me never to play at your table.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Why does everyone take the word 'if' to mean 'always'?

If you make it to PaizoCon I'd wager a round of drinks that you'd enjoy playing at my table.

Grand Lodge

Tanoshi wrote:

Hmm, that tale wasn't quite as tantalizing as I was hoping!

But, for similar situations that could arise in the future, might I suggest investing in a good set of manacles? Perhaps more than one?

Granted, the Charm Person effect might end up dropping once he realizes you've got no real intentions of making good on the whole "let's have some fun with these" thing. But by that point, the BBEG should be properly secured and it shouldn't matter all too much.

In this case the manacles wouldn't necessarily have helped, but for the full story it would include to many spoilers that I don't feel belong on the boards, sorry :(. Suffice it to say it worked out, but certainly left the players in an interesting situation.

Liberty's Edge

Balgin wrote:
To be totally honest one of the most amusing things I've seen in Pathfinder was a villain casting and unnatural lust on one party member and unnatural loathing on another. It wasn't quite Benny Hill territory but it was getting there :).

Apollo and Daphne?

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