Obtaining Telepathy


Advice


I'm going to be playing a necromancer in an upcoming campaign, and I'm looking for the earliest/cheapest/easiest way to get at-will telepathy to command my undead on the battlefield without all that pesky vocalization. Suggestions?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Nothing, early or cheap.

-Improved eldritch heritage and the aquatic bloodline but well that's level 11, without counting the steep requirement in charisma and feats.

-Telepathic bond can be made permanent with a permanency spell but again...not really cheap or early.


Well now, that is disappointing. I'm also open to any 3.5 or 3pp material, if that makes a difference.


Telepathy=Mind affecting

Undead=Immune to mind affecting.

Technically speaking, you can't use telepathy to communicate with undead at all (despite spellcasting undead being able to use spells like telepathic bond), which has always struck me as rather amusing.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

well 3.5 there are many materials, you can just look at some old handbooks for that.

For 3pp...I would normally recommend psionics but pretty sure mindlink and many other powers like telepathy are mind affecting effects [undead are immune to mind affecting effects].

Edit= Actually funny enough in 3.5 most of the telepathy stuffs are divination without the mind affecting descriptor.


Lashunta (race, See Inner Sea Bestiary or People of the Stars) are able to communicate telepathically with any creature that shares a language within a short radius (30ft). This would include undead, if they shared a language.


well it depand if you control the undead as servents or via some form of domination. as domination allready inclode a mind ordering power.

i would try and argue the later with your dm. otherwise how would undead understand what you talk to them if they are from the worng speciy? rise a normal lizard folk zomby(they are xenofobic and dont usaly know common) how does it understand you? if not from this form of domination?

more so, say a drow who uses underdark to command his undead have one being possed by a wondering cleric with the command undead ability. that cleric speak no underdark yet he can order the undead around.
i think undead control is more like domination then like charm where you need to understand what the order is.


Assuming my DM does decide to play it by RAW and not allow undead to be able to use telepathy, any other suggestions for accomplishing the same thing? Lashunta is sadly out, as I'm already built as human.


Isn't there a metamagic fear that allows you to use enchantment on undead?


TheBlackPlague wrote:
Assuming my DM does decide to play it by RAW and not allow undead to be able to use telepathy, any other suggestions for accomplishing the same thing? Lashunta is sadly out, as I'm already built as human.

Where are you getting the idea that telepathy is mind affecting.

The universal monster rules don't say anything of the sort.


I think they're referring to spells that emulate the monster ability.


I'm mildly surprised no one has thought of this.

Be a Wizard or a Sorcerer or anything similar, and get a Familiar. Then take Improved Familiar. Many of those creatures have Telepathy out to various distances; for example, pseudodragons. Far from perfect of course, but it should do.


Snowblind wrote:
TheBlackPlague wrote:
Assuming my DM does decide to play it by RAW and not allow undead to be able to use telepathy, any other suggestions for accomplishing the same thing? Lashunta is sadly out, as I'm already built as human.

Where are you getting the idea that telepathy is mind affecting.

The universal monster rules don't say anything of the sort.

The comment about six up from yours. Silly me, I assumed it was correct without double-checking (since it does sort of make sense). Telepathic Bond, for example, says nothing of the sort. In which case, I'm back to my original question.

It had never occurred to me to use Improved Familiar. That seems like the cheapest option for sure.


there are some classes who can get that as a 3rd level .
tifling cleric variant findish vessel can pick one of 3 (imp, quasit, or cacodaemon) at 3rd level. they also get their channale energy changed to channale evil. which is great incase you use undead since it heal evil(both undead and alive) instead of being evil and only healing your undead.and it damages good with the same channel :)

if you want a famelier that can hold stuff go ether demon or devil. but i like the cacodaemon for his agbility to steal the daed soul of my enemies once/day and spiting it back as a soul gem. can be usfull for making items or casting coslty spells(or bargening chip). (and make the gm think twice before throwing a very high level hd craeture at you. the higher the hd the more it's soul is worth ;)


Ishpumalibu wrote:
Isn't there a metamagic fear that allows you to use enchantment on undead?

Threnodic Spell. Unfortunately, it makes the mind-affecting spell that you apply it to only work on Undead, and adds 2 levels to the level of the spell for casting (but not DC calculation) purposes. You could make a custom Helm of Telepathy that uses it, but it would be even more expensive by a considerable margin, especially if you wanted it to work both ways (you would have to use the rules for combining 2 magic items into 1). Also, the range is not great (60 feet, and it is a cone rather than a line, so you have to use Widen Spell to expand it, which adds 3 levels for casting, thus really blowing the cost through the roof).

For 3rd Party, you could be a Psion Telepath, which at 8th level gets you telepathy to 400 feet range without the [mind-affecting] descriptor. But that is an awful lot of levels that don't do anything for your Necromancy (as far as I can tell with a brief look now and an extensive look a long time ago, Psionics doesn't give you a way to make undead, and you really need 8th level of Telepath without resorting to something like Cerebremancer that gives you "+1 Manifester Level").

I think Improved Familiar is the best way to go.


about the improved familiers..it seems they are not the same.(scroll down in the links)
a Quasit has telepathy only at touch range.
imp seem to not have telepaty at all.
but (my fevorite) the Cacodaemon has a 100 ft telepathy (among other abilities,like being immune to death effects, disease, poison)

EDIT: about imps. foudn this later on:
"One in every thousand imps possesses the ability to communicate telepathically with creatures within 50 feet and the power to change its form into that of any Small or Tiny animal, as per the spell beast shape II. These imp consulars are highly prized by powerful devils, who send them to serve their favored minions or to corrupt mortals with great destinies. An imp consular can be summoned via the Improved Familiar feat, but only by a spellcaster of 8th level or higher. Diabolists tell of other breeds of imps with similarly specialized abilities, but if such creatures truly exist they are an especially rare lot."


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Ishpumalibu wrote:
Isn't there a metamagic fear that allows you to use enchantment on undead?
Threnodic Spell. Unfortunately, it makes the mind-affecting spell that you apply it to only work on Undead, and adds 2 levels to the level of the spell for casting (but not DC calculation) purposes.

Threnodic spell isn't too bad as a rod.

Unfortunately it doesn't really help solve your problem. The only enchantment that would help you communicate mentally with undead that I can think of offhand is dominate monster, and that is obviously way too high level.


if you are feat starved a souldrinker get a cacodaemon familier. a 2 level dip would lose you one level of spell casting but get you that and the energy drainig touch attack and soul pool as well (the requirments are not that hard as you need 5 ranks in knowledge religion which any undead master should have and 5 ranks in spellcraft, again something you should have anyway)
getting magical knack trait will loosen the caster level cost(but not he spell casting range cost)


As far as class suggestions go, it won't help, as I have a very specific build that I can't afford to drop levels into. A Helm of Telepathy is the logical choice, although as said the sixty foot range and cone-shaped emanation make it unwieldy - not to mention how cost-prohibitive it is, especially in the first ten levels, which makes it basically a nonstarter for what I'm looking for. Threnodic Spell won't really work for a communication system. So far an Improved Familiar sems like the best bet, although it is still a bit later to come online than I was hoping.


well.. how about having a sidequick doing all the vocal orders for you? getting someone hired and telling ihm before hand what to order the udnead to do.then tell them to follow his lead untill you tell them to stop listening to him. if the main probelm is switching orders on to unintelegnt undaed.

and also i dont see what is such a big problem with giving orders yourself. speaking is a free action one can do even not in his own turn. unelss you dont want the enemies to know what your saying. in that case pick a very rare languge and use that to order them about.


Might not be the best mystery but an oracle of the outer rifts can get the telepathy revelation which grants you telepathy, within a 100 ft. Have to be fairly high-leveled though


zza ni wrote:

well.. how about having a sidequick doing all the vocal orders for you? getting someone hired and telling ihm before hand what to order the udnead to do.then tell them to follow his lead untill you tell them to stop listening to him. if the main probelm is switching orders on to unintelegnt undaed.

and also i dont see what is such a big problem with giving orders yourself. speaking is a free action one can do even not in his own turn. unelss you dont want the enemies to know what your saying. in that case pick a very rare languge and use that to order them about.

A couple reasons, actually. This character is for Skull & Shackles, and my minions (many of which will be aquatic, many of which will be ship-to-ship, and some of which are amphibious) will be spread between (at least) two ships (including in the rigging, belowdecks, etc), the surrounding seas, and anywhere in between. It isn't reasonable to assume that vocal commands could be easily heard (or heard AT ALL) over the sounds of two crews in pitched battle, plus the wind howling and the waves crashing, especially not with such spread-out troops. It's hard enough in decent, non-combat weather to shout to someone up in the crow's nest or belowdecks and be heard well, much less with all the other facets to take into consideration.


..there are at least 3 spells that let you talk to your team mates over some distance. some have a very long duration.

message is a cantrip. last 10 min\level and has a range of medium (100ft + 10 ft per level) and can effect 1 creature per level. as a cantrip you can cast it all day. a creature per level mean that by level 5(normal levle to start heaving undead minis) you can talk to 5 of them. if you have more. divide them to groups with orders to follow what the "leader" of each group do(as attack his target. raw the ship etc) and target the leaders.

as a necromancer( which i presume is a wizard who's school is necromancy) that spell should be at your spell book when your at level 1 for free,unless it is in your prohibited spells.)
range might not be enough if ships seperate but if you do find telepathy. it won't normaly have larger range then 100 ft.

massage is the casters cell-phone,at higher level he is an operetor :)


Alas, as I am a cleric, nothing so simple as message to make my life easier.


hmm i don't know cleric spells that well. but maybe there is some kind of spell that work like that in his list. isn't there a spell to keep tabs on your fellew party? 'statues' or soething. maybe something else like messenger animal?
see if the gm let you get a magical item that cast messege? there is one that does mage hand at will. and other for light and such. ask\craft a messege one with a fellew wizard. as i said every level 1 wizard have it in his cantrip list.

you can try for message's ugly lonly cousin. but i think a magical item that let you cast message wil lbe the cheapest thing if allowed.(of course you might want to spend some cash on that to increase the caster level to higher then 1. to have it effect more targets at furter range and for longer time betwin uses so you dont have to call every1 close every 10 min)

also helm of telepathy won't work with undead. it uses detect thought as a base .and let you send thoughts to whoever you read his mind for 1 round with detect toughts. which is a mind efecting spell that undead are immune to.


^Secret speech is going to have the same problem as normal speech with respect to range and interference after it is cast, and the casting of it is Touch.


If you are a cleric and your casting stat is wisdom, and you don't mind 3PP products, you can pick up telepathy by multi-classing into Vitalist and you'll have telepathy to a number of creatures equal to your casting stat or vitalist level/2 (a single feat will allow you to count your cleric levels in that mix: expansive collective).

Done.

Collective + Collective Healing + Spirit of Many + Telepathy

1) You can channel negative energy into a single undead next to you to apply to other undead in your collective) -- if you heal with negative energy, you can cast it on yourself.

2) Spirit of Many strips the "mind affecting" component of the 3rd level telepathy ability so that undead can be affected.

3) The telepathy ability at 3rd level allows for unlimited communications.

With your collective, you'll also be the best healer ever (undead or otherwise), bar none.

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