So, party gets wasted due to obscenely stacked encounter and a handful of below-optimal decisions (APL 6 vs a CR 11+ encounter [ 9, 8, and thirteen 4s ], is that calculation about right?). Seems a great time to get the players more or less on the same page and build a better team, right? But, that was just *me* thinking, so that's for naught.
I've kinda committed to playing a paladin. I tested one out in a one-shot interlude, and I actually enjoyed it. The campaign we're playing feels like a great fit for a paladin. The Pathfinder conversion is so superior to the past versions in 3.0, 3.5, and 4th it's a bit earth-shattering -- for *me* to want to play a LG character is a thing not heard at a game table in over 20 years.
And I was looking forward to it.
There's a new player in the group who has undertaken to build all of his characters in direct opposition to mine. The last time that happened, my cleric of Rovagug poleaxed the LG samurai -- somewhat satisfying in a visceral sense, but no good for the group in the long term. His latest concoction is an evil-aligned half-orc scarred witch doctor that wants to build . . . carrion golems, I think? He has bragged about this character's 24 Constitution, and how everything ties to that stat . . . . Blah, blah, blah.
To be frank, I'm well past fed up with this whole thing. I tried to talk with the player last night to seek some sort of common ground, possibly find some other palatable solution than "The Shortly Expected Inquisition!!" No dice. It's a mechanics-based arms race with two of the smartest guys I know building characters that feed off one another and want little or nothing more than to work against me and my character. Not a recipe for disaster or disappointment at all.
I had planned to serve as the primary front-liner, and in order to help offset my notoriously low attack rolls (rolling 2s and 3s 80% of the time with a character making 4-6 attacks per round is PAR) I had elected to pursue the Weapon of the Chosen feat tree and Vital Strike. Not great, perhaps, but more effective for my customary degree of success. That whole bit is likely out the window, now . . . . Because I'm asking for a lot of help.
Here are the bare bones: 7th level, no traits, 23.5k gp, human, ability scores at 1st: 17, 16, 14, 14, 13, 10 (generated via 4d6 drop lowest).
What's the "best" possible build for a paladin to destroy two full casters with golems and summons as their bread and butter? I don't like it much, as I'd rather have a cooperative party that can be successful *together*, but I'm jonesing for a swan song event -- kill 'em all, and die in the attempt. Just a one-shot "Right back at ya!" and then bring in something different.
And this is just for the sake of the mechanical evaluation, people -- I'm probably going to co-opt the countermove with another cleric of lowdown and ruthless, just so we all can get along. I just want to know how y'all would build it.
This depends on a few things.
What sort of builds are the others probably toting? What is the other player's class anyway.
How are you going to engage them:
- Legitimate "fair" fight
- Full attack in the surprise round (with an item to enable this)
- Coup de Grace in their sleep
That said, here are a few things you should be aware of.
If the witch scarred doctor wants to make carrion golems he needs craft wondrous,craft weapons and armor, and craft construct. He has 1 feat left over. He won't be very specialized. He also will have a total of 3 hexes, or 4 if he blows his 1 feat on extra hex. The golems he is getting out of this are frankly terrible - if you are around them before fighting you will have already saved against stench, and paladins are immune to disease. Their damage is also piddly. They can basically be ignored until the casters are dead. Be grateful he is blowing 3/4 of his feats and 1/4 his WBL per golem on useless bodies.
I would need more information to come up with a decent strategy for beating them. If they are the paranoid, prepared sort you probably will fail even with a tight strategy however.
EDIT: Ahaha, that's beautiful. His only feat is his first level one. He also loses his level 1 hex to scarred witch doctor, so he can't pick ANYTHING related to hexes, including extra hex. Beautiful.
Double EDIT: Also, I don't know if you care but he technically can't have a +4 con belt. Rules for new characters are that no more than 25% of WBL should be in a single item. That belt soaks up about 34%. For him to have a 24 Con on a witch at level 7, he HAS to be using one.
Roll in with a LE Hellknight. Smite Chaos works as well as Smite Evil.
Once you've dealt with the problem, ask to retire the character.
Here's the important question. Do you actually have fun at this game? If someone is being directly antagonistic and confrontational, is it worth returning to the table?
Yeah, the Con mod on the mask is gonna require GM approval -- which he's likely to get: our GM is not too stringent on money expenditures. For instance, he was fine with me spending 8k of mine on a +1 keen longsword for the initial build.
And I'm far more likely to get tangled in a "fair" fight than anything else -- not digging for antipaladin conversion here. LOL.
The second player has *said* he's building an evocation-focused arcane caster. The trouble with that is that this guy changes builds like most folks change clothes -- whichever one of the 5 or so he kicks around between sessions will be locked in at game time, but it's tough to say which way it'll go now. Given that the second player is the one who coached this scarred witch doctor build, it's very likely that he's recast the character in whatever angle synergizes best with these golems, still bearing in mind I've audibled for paladin, too (he thinks he's more slick than he really is; very smart, mind you, but not *that* smooth). It may not even come down to a fight with this guy (it was his samurai my previous character axed, and inspired the newbie to test the waters with "oppose you" builds), but I can't count on anything, really.
I do have something like an ace-in-the-hole, though -- a sword-and-board TWF slayer being played by and for my sometimes unavailable brother. I *could* wield him in such a conflict as an ally, especially since he's not likely to be present.
I feel . . . not compelled, per se, but . . . mandated (?) to play this paladin as close to Michael Carpenter of the Dresden Files as I can -- forthright, honest, peaceable until the weak and/or innocent are threatened. Being raised in an evangelical Protestant family makes the roleplaying pretty easily managed in that regard, but, of course, it also provides insight into being able to leverage technicalities and "grey areas" for greater benefit. It's entirely possible that I'll be able to pull some surprise down on them (anecdote: it's exactly this sort of ill-fitting stuff that balances out my typically horrible attack rolls -- if I try ridiculous stuff, it usually works.).
So, I guess the simplest line to draw is this: high-hp tank witch with a roadblock, and possibly a slew of 4th-level energy damage spells being pointed my way each round. All this considered, I have no preference for the method used to pull this off: whether melee, ranged, or (HA!) magical.
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Only one question that matters:
Are you having fun?
If yes: rock on.
If no: walk off.
If you said you already talked to the guy, and he refuses to play team-mate then there is a PLAYER issue at your table. Keep on if you dig the game *anyway*. Leave if you aren't having fun.
For builds, sorry, not interested in PvP. That's why they made WoW.
Skaldi --
It's the only game I'm aware of in 4 counties, and these guys are my friends AFT.
And I've seriously pondered LG Hellknight -- hoo, boy, have I!!!
Is it fun? Yeah, it's fun. Quite a bit. And, to clarify, it's not a "direct confrontation" scenario at this point; I just think it's inevitable, especially given detect evil as an at-will move action. Sketchy behavior will out, and no one is better-suited to finding it and trying to stop it than a paladin.
Further, in all seriousness: a double dose of "Smite Player" isn't going to solve anything. It'll be totally cool to keep taking them down a peg or two, but it looks like this may become a trend. I'd be much less likely to make this big a crisis of it if we were playing characters rather than mechanics, but this campaign is all about ADVANCEMENT. If it's just a series of "Celebrity Deathmatch" episodes with commercial-length story segments, I'd prefer to have a more focused group that wasn't BUILT to implode; a high-rp campaign is more likely to provide decent outs for everyone involved in points of tension such as this. Plain truth, though, is that our GM isn't yet of the temperament and . . . depth of experience, I guess you could say, that would enable more role than roll play. He's still getting a feel for things.
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I always thought the best way to kill fellow players without endangering one's self was to go into an encounter and just do nothing/leave. If it's a rough fight They will need you and there will be a PK or two. Perfect time to turn on a caster is when they are distracted by other foes.
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he likes to build opposite aligned characters, solution; true neutral Druid.
Midnight --
It's not just alignment -- concept and all. True neutral druid yields NE blighter. Guaranteed.
Spastic --
Ummmmm . . . . Even crummy paladins sacrifice themselves first. And if we're fighting a "greater evil", then there's that to deal with first, too. Just saying it's a bit tough to justify a do-nothing pally. I'll run with another treacherous scoundrel soon, though. Thanks! :)
Divine Hunter probably wouldn't be bad (on reflection after looking at the build...if your turn comes around orc boy dies).
With your stats you could have 18 Dex, 16 str, 16 Cha.
As a human you could take the following feats
1. Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise shot(bonus)
3. Deadly Aim
5.Craft Wondrous items (yay for near double WBL)
7.Many Shot
The following items would be good
3100 - a +1 adaptive composite longbow with merciful chucked on it by divine bond (so you can throw them in jail after beating them)
4000 - deliquescent gloves - 1d6 acid for cheaper than a +2 weapon
2000 - Dex belt
2000 - Cha headband
2000-Bracers of falcon aim (SO GOOD)
500 - quick runners shirt
2000 - Cloak of Resistance 2+
1100 - Mithril Chainshirt
6000 - Boots of speed (exceeds 25% rule barely, but hey he is doing it too)
That's 22.7 k
Buy some bane arrows with the change if you feel really mean. You know the scarred witch doctor is an ork, for example. If the other one is a caster bring some human and elf bane arrows for a fair chance of guessing right (EDIT: He has to be a half-orc - bring human bane arrows and make sure he goes down).
Now for some DPR calculations
Assuming smite, divine bond, point blank shot and haste from boots are active
Assuming target AC is AC22. Fairly good for an arcane caster at this level.
Total attack bonus = +5 Dex, +4 Smite, +1 Bracers, +1 haste, +7 Bab, +1 weapon, +1 PBS, -2 Deadly Aim, -2 rapid shot= +16
Damage on hit (crit on 19-20/x3)=1d8 weapon, +3 str, +7 Smite, +4 Deadly Aim,+1 weapon, +1 PBS, +1d6 merciful, +1d6 acid = 24 non-lethal + 3.5 acid average damage per hit.
Attack routine - +16(Manyshot), +16, +16, +11
Chance to hit - 0.75,0.75,0.75,0.5
Crit multiplier is 1+(2/20*(3-1))=1.2
Manyshot
expected damage = 0.75*(24*1.2 +24+3.5*2)=44.85
Full Bab attacks
expected damage = 0.75*(24*1.2+3.5)=24.225
Iterative
expected damage = 0.5*(24*1.2+3.5)=16.15
Total average damage per round = 109.45 damage
What is the HP of a 7th level 24 Con witch with average HP rolls and FCB hp...
83 HP
BAHAHAHAHA
His face will be beautiful.
Another EDIT: Eeek, throwing in human bane arrows brings DPR over 140. Oh well, y'know what they say. There is no "Overkill", there is only "Open fire" and "I need to reload" "I'm out of bane arrows".
Midnight --
It's not just alignment -- concept and all. True neutral druid yields NE blighter. Guaranteed.
Spastic --
Ummmmm . . . . Even crummy paladins sacrifice themselves first. And if we're fighting a "greater evil", then there's that to deal with first, too. Just saying it's a bit tough to justify a do-nothing pally. I'll run with another treacherous scoundrel soon, though. Thanks! :)
yeah, if his sole purpose is to antagonize you, do yourself a favor and walk away. You can find plenty of people to game with who have better social skills.
So, party gets wasted due to obscenely stacked encounter and a handful of below-optimal decisions (APL 6 vs a CR 11+ encounter [ 9, 8, and thirteen 4s ], is that calculation about right?). Seems a great time to get the players more or less on the same page and build a better team, right? But, that was just *me* thinking, so that's for naught.
I've kinda committed to playing a paladin. I tested one out in a one-shot interlude, and I actually enjoyed it. The campaign we're playing feels like a great fit for a paladin. The Pathfinder conversion is so superior to the past versions in 3.0, 3.5, and 4th it's a bit earth-shattering -- for *me* to want to play a LG character is a thing not heard at a game table in over 20 years.
And I was looking forward to it.
There's a new player in the group who has undertaken to build all of his characters in direct opposition to mine. The last time that happened, my cleric of Rovagug poleaxed the LG samurai -- somewhat satisfying in a visceral sense, but no good for the group in the long term. His latest concoction is an evil-aligned half-orc scarred witch doctor that wants to build . . . carrion golems, I think? He has bragged about this character's 24 Constitution, and how everything ties to that stat . . . . Blah, blah, blah.
To be frank, I'm well past fed up with this whole thing. I tried to talk with the player last night to seek some sort of common ground, possibly find some other palatable solution than "The Shortly Expected Inquisition!!" No dice. It's a mechanics-based arms race with two of the smartest guys I know building characters that feed off one another and want little or nothing more than to work against me and my character. Not a recipe for disaster or disappointment at all.
I had planned to serve as the primary front-liner, and in order to help offset my notoriously low attack rolls (rolling 2s and 3s 80% of the time with a character making 4-6 attacks per round is PAR) I had elected to pursue the Weapon of the Chosen feat tree and...
The 13 CR 4's are an CR 11 by their self so this is really more like a CR 13 encounter.
With that aside what is the party's quest?
Also if you were to create an evil character then that person would have to create a good one, and just because evil is on your character sheet that does not mean you have to play him as evil. Now if he does not really RP alignments then tricking him won't work.
Normally I would say talk to the GM, but my experience on the forums is that in these cases the GM "can't" or won't step in and stop any nonsense so I am foregoing my typical advice.
Skaldi --
It's the only game I'm aware of in 4 counties, and these guys are my friends AFT.
What is AFT?
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What is AFT?Skaldi --
It's the only game I'm aware of in 4 counties, and these guys are my friends AFT.
At a guess, Away From Table.
Its a pity you can't start at 8th level. You could roll in with a Redeemer, beat them until they wet themselves with merciful smites, then twist their arms up behind their backs and make them promise to behave via Pact of Peace!
Oh yeah, with the build I wrote above your saves are as follows(13 wis, 14 con)
Dex=5dex+2 resistance+4cha+2 class=+13
Fort=2con+2 resistance+4cha+5 class=+13
Will=1wis+2 resistance+4cha+5 class=+12
On reflection, the strength and cha roll placements of the above build should be swapped (16+2 cha, 14 str instead of 14+2 cha, 16 str). You might even want to have 22 cha and 18 dex after items - this is probably optimal. I suspect your DPR will go *up* by doing this (trading +1 damage for +1 to-hit).
With the improved ability score arrangements your saves are 15,16,15. The half-orc will have DC21 level 4 spells. You have a 30% chance of failing your worst save. Decent against a caster with an absurd ability score.
Plus your initiative will be not be far of his since he doesn't have the resources left over to boost it heavily. If you win, you have a roughly 0% chance of failing a save against him.
Just in case it matters, AC is 18/14 touch with the improved stats, or 25/21 touch with smite and haste up (which you should). Fairly good for a ranged character that sunk most of their funds into playing rocket tag.
Since I have completely neglected so far to actually state you roll arrangements, new ability scores are as follows.
16+2=18,14,14,10,13,17+2+1+2=22
EDIT: at this stage I would seriously consider dropping manyshot for improved initiative. I can't believe I am saying this, but if you are using bane arrows on your first full attack, then you are probably doing enough damage. On the other hand, if they don't have decent AC then you have a good chance to take *both* down in the first full attack if a crit shows up.
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Screw with them and swap to an antipaladin at the last minute, then cooperate.
Kill em with cooperation.
I've found over the last few years that no gaming at all is far better than bad gaming. If they're removing the fun from the experience leave the table. Or even just sit a game out. Let them know why you aren't joining them.
Maybe start up a new table with the folks you enjoy playing with?
Have you tried looking into PFS? They're all over the place. While they may not be everyone's cup of tea, you can use them as a spring board to find another group that you'll enjoy playing with.
Again, If you're enjoying the PVP, rock on with your bad self.
You COULD consider having fun at his expense: Create a character concept whose opposite is ridiculous and boring, or extremely convoluted.
All --
Many thanks for the input. It's been great stuff.
wraithstrike --
yes, AFT = Away From Table
UPDATE --
It turns out that caster player pointed antago-newbie in some other directions, and the "counter character" was crystallized later, in private. The worst-case scenario has been significantly improved -- it would only be duelsville. Heck, caster player told me to just kill the other character, straight out.
Snowblind --
The divine hunter build you specced out looks great. I *do* have a few questions, though, mostly pertaining to the use of CWI. How am I supposed to be able to get access to acid arrow and summon monster V for the sake of crafting the deliquescent gloves? The same is true for the boots of speed . . . . GP expenditures are one thing, satisfying all the prereqs is another. Our GM barely blinks at how you spend money, but you've got to have pristine provenance for anything you build. And without a solid Int to back up Spellcraft checks, I'd likely run out of money before I finished the equipment list. Any time I run a crafter, I make sure I work on them when a nat roll of 1 on the skill check still gets me what I want.
Dafydd --
Wild times at Multiclassing High, eh? I'll bookmark that build for shenanigans at another time. :) I'm still digging the straight-class purity of Pathfinder at the mo.
Again, thanks, one and all. I'd love to hear a few more ideas, if you have them.
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Tell him to cut if the frack out. If he's actually your friend he'll stop messing with you. If he doesn't, then he's not actually your friend.
I had someone do this to me for a while and then I deliberately pointed it out the entire table, told them I wasn't cool with it, and that my character was either killing or being killed by the opposite character because I wasn't cool with it. I told them if I died I was going to leave the campaign and if I won and the player brought in another character that would provoke my character I would leave.
Sometimes you just need to call out the big guns and stick to them.
No amount of "resolving" this situation in game will actually make it better. I only did it in my previous anecdote to resolve the characters story lines (and probably because I was also pissed off and tired of the shenanigans). Being constantly provoke by a "friend" is not a pleasant way to spend an evening.
No gaming is better than bad gaming.
As a paladin... you're in bad shape. He will likely get the first move and it will probably be ill-omen followed by sleep
All --
Many thanks for the input. It's been great stuff.
wraithstrike --
yes, AFT = Away From Table
UPDATE --
It turns out that caster player pointed antago-newbie in some other directions, and the "counter character" was crystallized later, in private. The worst-case scenario has been significantly improved -- it would only be duelsville. Heck, caster player told me to just kill the other character, straight out.
Snowblind --
The divine hunter build you specced out looks great. I *do* have a few questions, though, mostly pertaining to the use of CWI. How am I supposed to be able to get access to acid arrow and summon monster V for the sake of crafting the deliquescent gloves? The same is true for the boots of speed . . . . GP expenditures are one thing, satisfying all the prereqs is another. Our GM barely blinks at how you spend money, but you've got to have pristine provenance for anything you build. And without a solid Int to back up Spellcraft checks, I'd likely run out of money before I finished the equipment list. Any time I run a crafter, I make sure I work on them when a nat roll of 1 on the skill check still gets me what I want.
Dafydd --
Wild times at Multiclassing High, eh? I'll bookmark that build for shenanigans at another time. :) I'm still digging the straight-class purity of Pathfinder at the mo.
Again, thanks, one and all. I'd love to hear a few more ideas, if you have them.
I forgot about the spellcraft check. Too used to casters with a decent int that just make it without trying.
Boots are DC20 with no prereqs met. You can make that on 7 ranks+take 10 + 3 class skill
Gloves are DC 22. There are a few options here.
-A cracked +1 spellcraft ioun stone gets you to 21 and only costs 200 gp to buy (it is also DC22 to craft). You could swap your wisdom and int rolls, which will bring you to 22. If you can find another point of spellcraft somewhere else without sacrificing too much, or if your GM lets you craft a custom +2 competence spellcraft item, this is a good option.
-An armilary amulet will get you WAY past where you need to be. It is kind of expensive - you can drop Mithril chainshirt for regular chainshirt (you are sitting at the max dex bonus for regular chainshirt atm). It will eat into bane arrow money though(I would seriously consider dropping to regular chainshirt just for more bane arrows).
-If your GM will let you buy a masterwork too for spellcraft crafting that will take care of it. This is the best option if your GM lets you.
-You could put a bunch of ranks into the appropriate craft skill for making gloves, and then use artisan's tools, which are a printed example of masterwork tools, no GM ruling needed. It is a rather painful waste of skill points though - between Craft(Leather) and Spellcraft you will only have 1 rank/level left for all other skills. You can reduce this pain by putting some points in UMD and buying a scroll or hiring a caster so you can get a CL9 Crafter's Fortune on you (costs 90gp from a caster, or 225gp for a scroll). That way you only need 2 ranks in the skill to make the check. If you can find a way to boost spellcraft with a spell for long enough, do that instead.
So there you are - A bunch of options, all either requiring GM approval or trading off +1 will/7 skill ranks/bane arrows and mithral armor. Pick one, or find another way if you can.
Also, I know you said no traits, but does that mean you can't use traits or does it mean you don't start with traits. If you can, pick up Extra Traits instead of Manyshot so you can get the Irrepressible trait and sink yourself into Pass on a 2 Territory, which is rather nice (this lets you either swap wisdom to deal with spellcraft or get a +1 to spellcraft with the other trait). If the other guy is as arrogant as he sounds, he might try to open up with a sleep and discover that a DC20 Slumber Hex is no match for your paladin's +20 will save against compulsion effects (which slumber would fall under since it works "as sleep but..."). Even if you get Evil Eye'd you pass Slumber on a 2. Worst case, with Evil Eye and Misfortune you save against slumber 90% of the time, and it takes him 3 rounds to set that up (he will not last that long). Against regular spells you will not be too shabby either with your minimum save of +15 (he has to actually kill you - even if you fail against something like stinking cloud he needs to find some way of ending you and your ridiculous saves before you come back online). Plus regular spells can be shut down by a bane arrow to the face.
Hold the presses!!!!
*Where* is it specified that a 10 may be taken on the Spellcraft checks for building items??!! That CHANGES things. I've been #doingitwrong, then, and I'm not a fan. A page number would be much appreciated.
>>>>Snowblind
We can't take traits, get 'em, earn 'em, wheedle for 'em . . . . Nothing.