Chamipion's Finesse + Artful Dodger


Rules Questions

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Champion's Finesse (Class Ability of Daring Champion Archtype)
At 1st level, a daring champion gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and he can use Charisma in place of Intelligence for the purpose of combat feats prerequisites. A daring champion also counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for the purpose of meeting feat requirements.

Artful Dodge (Combat Feat from Melee Toolbox)
Prerequisite(s): Int 13.

Benefit: If you are the only character threatening an opponent, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC against that opponent.

Special: The Artful Dodge feat acts as the Dodge feat for the purpose of satisfying prerequisites that require Dodge.

You can use Intelligence, rather than Dexterity, for feats with a minimum Dexterity prerequisite.

My reading is that a Daring Champion with the Artful Dodger feat could use charisma to qualify for intelligence or dexterity based combat feats. Am I making a mistake in stacking these?


I don't see why it wouldn't. I want to say it should be blocked cuz that's just wow, but I can't really come up with a reason.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I don't see it as a problem.

Is there one?

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blackbloodtroll wrote:

I don't see it as a problem.

Is there one?

It lets me be really cheesy and make a charisma based melee character that can dump both dexterity and Int? Oh wait...that sounds terrible!


hah. dip oracle for the Cha to dodge then that feat for the saves?
might as well make it more

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I really don't find that cheesy.I f*cking hate that term.

It's really has no great advantage, that could even get close to being a balance factor.


The only thing I can think of where this would be useful is going STR TWF on a paladin/bard/oracle with a dip into swashbuckler to qualify.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It's still sacrificing a level, and a feat.


I mean you're still going to want high dex for attack and high(er, well not dumping) intelligence for skills. The fact that you can use charisma to qualify for some feats instead of int isn't really that big of boon.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It's a combo, that you look at, and say "um, that's neat", and that's about it.

Dark Archive

I agree it's possible, and maybe useful for a battle oracle dipping swashbuckler but otherwise isn't great.


Yeah, you're taking a dex based class to get a combo that removes the need for dex. No cheese there at all.


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Do you want the maximum cheese?

Artful dodge as written says that you can use Int in place for Dex for feats that require a minimum Dex, but it does not say that counts only for the prerequisite itself, so you can use Int in every place the feat says Dex as long as the feat itself has a minimum Dex prerequisite.

Artful Dodge + Weapon Finesse + Slashing/Fencing Grace = BAM INT TO HIT AND DAMAGE

I, for one, welcome my new Int-based Magi overlords


It just lets you use charisma to qualify for the feats. I don't see that it lets you use Charisma in place of Dexterity for your attack or AC or anything.


Entryhazard wrote:

Do you want the maximum cheese?

Artful dodge as written says that you can use Int in place for Dex for feats that require a minimum Dex, but it does not say that counts only for the prerequisite itself, so you can use Int in every place the feat says Dex as long as the feat itself has a minimum Dex prerequisite.

Artful Dodge + Weapon Finesse + Slashing/Fencing Grace = BAM INT TO HIT AND DAMAGE

I, for one, welcome my new Int-based Magi overlords

It doesn't work that way at all.


I would, doing this, take a dip in Lore Oracle to get the Cha bonus to AC (instead of Dex), then do the four levels in the Daring Champion archetype (which turns the cavalier into a swashbuckler), then dip into Paladin for four levels to get to channel energy. Then go Holy Vindicator the rest of the way. (To really maximize it sooner, you could do a dip in Cleric after Paladin 2 and Cavalier 1 by doing Swashbuckler 1, Cleric 1, saving 3 levels).

This would add your Cha bonus to all saves, AC (once instead of Dex, and once as a Dodge bonus versus a single target), channel bonus to Shield that applies to touch AC, and use two-weapon fighting with Shield Bash as the off-hand. Without a single magic item, you'd be at a 25 AC, 14/13/12 saves at level 9.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Entryhazard wrote:

Do you want the maximum cheese?

Artful dodge as written says that you can use Int in place for Dex for feats that require a minimum Dex, but it does not say that counts only for the prerequisite itself, so you can use Int in every place the feat says Dex as long as the feat itself has a minimum Dex prerequisite.

Artful Dodge + Weapon Finesse + Slashing/Fencing Grace = BAM INT TO HIT AND DAMAGE

I, for one, welcome my new Int-based Magi overlords

From rules lawyer to rules lawyer, I just want to say that this is a willful misinterpretation. :-p


Cuz I am at work and I have a horrible job that allows me lots of free time, I decided to make this guy at 10th level. Few things not filled out (like skills, traits, spells). I've tried to clean it up to make it more legible from what Hero Lab outputs to text (removing abilities not key to the idea, etc). I think it's PFS legal (except I usually leave HP at max)...

Build:

Unnamed Hero
Human cleric of Iomedae 1/holy vindicator 5/oracle 1/paladin 2/swashbuckler 1
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init -2; Senses Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 33, touch 23, flat-footed 25 (+5 armor, +2 deflection, +8 Dex, +1 natural, +3 sacred, +4 shield)
hp 104 (10 HD; 2d8+8d10+12)
Fort +17, Ref +20, Will +18
Defensive Abilities vindicator's shield
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 heavy shield bash +7/+2 (2d6+2) and
+1 shortsword +7/+2 (1d6+3/19-20)
Special Attacks channel positive energy 11/day (DC 21 [23 to damage undead], 3d6), deeds (derring-do, dodging panache, opportune parry and riposte), panache (8), smite evil 1/day (+8 attack and AC, +2 damage)

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 7, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 26
Base Atk +8; CMB +10; CMD 23
Feats Alignment Channel, Artful Dodge, Channel Smite, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Shield Focus, Two-weapon Fighting
Skills Knowledge (religion) +8
Languages Common
SQ bloodfire, divine wrath, faith healing, lay on hands 9/day (1d6), oracle's curse (haunted), revelation (sidestep secret), stigmata: ac, stigmata: attack rolls, stigmata: caster level checks, stigmata: saving throws, stigmata: weapon damage, swashbuckler finesse
Other Gear +1 bashing shield spikes heavy steel shield, +1 shortsword, amulet of natural armor +1, bracers of armor +5, headband of alluring charisma +4, ring of protection +2, 4,510 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Alignment Channel (Evil) Channel Energy heals or harms outsiders of the chosen alignment.
Artful Dodge Gain +1 dodge bonus to AC vs. opponent only you threaten.
Bloodfire (Su) While using Stigmata, Channel Smite gains +1d6 dam, sickens and deals 1d6 bleed damage.
Channel Smite Channel energy can be delivered through a Smite attack.
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 3d6 (11/day, DC 21) (Su)
Cleric Domain (Glory & War)
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Lay on Hands (1d6 hit points, 9/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Sacred Stigmata: AC +2 (Standard) (Su) Inflict 2 HP of bleed damage on yourself to gain a +2 bonus to AC.
Sacred Stigmata: Attack Rolls +2 (Standard) (Su) Inflict 2 HP of bleed damage on yourself to gain a +2 bonus to attack.
Sacred Stigmata: Saving Throws +2 (Standard) (Su) Inflict 2 HP of bleed damage on yourself to gain a +2 bonus to saves.
Sacred Stigmata: Weapon Damage +2 (Standard) (Su) Inflict 2 HP of bleed damage on yourself to gain a +2 bonus to weapon damage.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Smite Evil (1/day) (Su) +8 to hit, +2 to damage, +8 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Swashbuckler Finesse At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having
Vindicator's Sacred Shield +3 (- Custom / magic armor -) (Su) Channel energy into shield for sacred/profane AC bonus for 24 hr or until hit.

Note: Keep in mind, you get that +8 Cha as a dodge bonus with Dodging Panache 8/day. Add in Stigmata (2 point bleed) for a further +2 AC, and Smite Evil's +8 Deflection can get your AC to a 48 against a single evil outsider. I don't think that's too bad for a level 10 character.


Claxon wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:

Do you want the maximum cheese?

Artful dodge as written says that you can use Int in place for Dex for feats that require a minimum Dex, but it does not say that counts only for the prerequisite itself, so you can use Int in every place the feat says Dex as long as the feat itself has a minimum Dex prerequisite.

Artful Dodge + Weapon Finesse + Slashing/Fencing Grace = BAM INT TO HIT AND DAMAGE

I, for one, welcome my new Int-based Magi overlords

It doesn't work that way at all.

But it is funny.

Grand Lodge

Artful Dodge doesnt work with weapon finesse or the listed ability as neither have a DEX Prerequesite

though yes it can be used in place of DEX for abilities of feats with DEX as a Pre-req

the only one i know of that adds dex to hit with said prereq is Dervish Dance


*cough*


Indeed.

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