I've seen a few threads dealing with grognards and attendant topics recently, with different implied definitions; I've referred to myself as a grognard on a couple of occasions, so I'm curious:
What makes someone a grognard? Is it the game you play? Is it your attitude toward gaming, or your style of play? Is it the length of time you have been playing, or the game you started with? Is it telling other gamers to get off your lawn? Is it, as seems likely, some combination of these?
I know we aren't going to come to a consensus (we're all gamers, after all), but I'm curious as to what y'all think.
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IME it's code for a very specific kind of a#*$&@!. Namely, the kind of a~&&$*! who has surgically attached rose colored glasses to their retinas and is utterly convinced that the fact that they've been playing a board game for 40 odd years makes them better people than people who haven't.
The first time I heard the word was here. People were saying that they have been playing since the 80's or so. That fits the time I started gaming since that is when I first got the box with the Blue book and the red book. I have played a bunch of games over the years like Twilight 2000, Cyber Punk, GURPS, BESM, Champions, and Zen and the Art of Mayhem.
I always assumed the Grognard thing had to do with age. I mean, you could go to a lot of conventions in a few years and play a lot of games. You could play more than I have played in my life time. Does that define you as a Grognard? I don't know.
There are lots of players who are are grumpy about the state of gaming affairs; the direction of Paizo or WotC. Does that make them Grognards? Got me.
So, without knowing more about Rynjin, I'd have to say he is a Grognard! :D
I'm 22 and have only been playing TRPGs since late 2012.
So I'm grumpy, yes (though I prefer to call it "passionate about game design" =p) but not a grognard.
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"So, without knowing more about Rynjin, I'd have to say he is a Grognard! :D"
Nope, I think he's just an a&&!#%*. He's angry that he lacks the creativity, intelligence, and imagination to deal with a system that doesn't set everything in stone for him.
Not sure if this is in jest or in earnest.
As terse as Rynjin is at times, I have seen much evidence of his creativity, intelligence and imagination.
As for grognards, I apply it to people who have been playing Dnd et al for a long time. Plenty of them are stuck in "older editions have mindsets, and I conform to x edition" but really, we come in all sizes and creeds.
Except 2e. It does not exist. ;)
You pull down your pants. You sit on a keg. If your nards dont hit the grog... you are not a grognard.
We have this thing called etymology. Its where words mean something.
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It's French for a grumbler. It was also the term used for a veteran grenadier of Napoleon's Imperial Guard whose service and loyalty had earned him the right to complain (grumble), even to the Emperor himself.
From that it was adopted by the American wargaming community to refer to people who were part of the hobby before the (if memory serves) 1970s when the hobby saw a large influx of new players. They adopted it due to the implied Old Guard meaning.
The term has since mutated to refer to those people who prefer older versions of wargames and role playing games (since our hobby grew out of theirs). It can be a pejorative, a complement, or neutral depending on who's using it and who they're using it about. However the grumbling aspect of the original term has more currency now than the veteran soldier part.
The only thing I have to add to this is that I know that the term was in use in the '80s. The context I tended to hear it used in at that time seemed to be more about distinguising genre -- the grognards were the miniatures wargamers.
I've never heard it used negatively before (other than self-deprecatingly) -- I would have described it as a neutral-to-positive implying age, time in the hobby, and a kind of stolid competence.
I am not sure how accurate my thoughts are on this but it evokes thoughts of older players who grumble about these rotten new fangled games that do away with the hardships they have grown up on and now love.
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To me, a grognard is someone who has been playing something longer than others, and who prefers the version of that something that came earlier than what is out now. Be this people who started playing D&D back in the 70s/80s/(and sometimes even)90s and prefer AD&D over post-2000 D&D/Pathfinder, people who have been playing army-based wargames (like Chainmail or Warhammer) and prefer the older versions, or even video games and prefer an older system (or older version).
Grognard means different things to different people, as is evident in this thread. Some with hostile bile-dripping definitions (like that in post number 2 of this thread), and others with more neutral definitions.
And holy hell that damn nostalgia insult just keeps pissing me off more and more each time I see someone use it. Because there is absolutely 0 reason what-so-ever than anyone could possibly like something older than what is out now than nostalgia. Zero reason. *rollseyes* As I mentioned in other threads: New = good old = bad is about as moronically stupid as old = good new = bad, yet I see more people spout off the first than the second. Both mindsets are stupid to have, but I see more people with the first than the second, and they are more likely to shove it in your face than those with the latter mindset, and in greater numbers.
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Grognard: among other grognards, a term of endearment and brotherhood, like the marines, or patriots, they form a timeless bond of kinship through a love and appreciation of a bygone era when things were built to stand the test of time. Where every layman had a unique but effective way of patching that wagon up, and it was his duty to do so, instead of simply using it for kindling and going out and buying a new wagon or building a new wagon from scratch. They are the frontiersmen, the resourceful builders of what we today call civilization. Like the difference between muscle cars and modern ferraris, one was spartan and had inferior traction for the level of power that it offered, but was time tested, gotcha down the road, and was cheap and easy to keep together... The other includes the newest technology and gadgets and might even get ya down the road faster, but any time you try to actually do that it'll most likely hit a tree or spontaneously combust under its own internal frictions.
Among non grognards, a perjorative meant to signify the poster to be the sort of fellow who, upon hearing about your newfangled d20, dice pools, feat trees, fate points (other meta currencies), toughness/wounds mechanics, wargames, battle mats and battle mat mechachics probaby immediately thinks to himself 'so what you're saying is you're not really *good* at this gaming thing, are you...'
Which is not true... they do not think like this. Not all of them anyway. Not most of them anyway.
I'm 22 and have only been playing TRPGs since late 2012.
So I'm grumpy, yes (though I prefer to call it "passionate about game design" =p) but not a grognard.
*Blink blink*
And you've been involved in over a dozen campaigns now?
Now THAT is making up for lost time.
Nice =D
22? Man I've got dice twice as old as you. I've got campaigns that have seen more birthdays... Grumble grumble. Uphill. Both ways... In the snow... Bah... baaaaah! Off with ye then.
Whippersnappers talking about Chuck Norris... Sheesh... The reason I dont shave my grognard beard is because each individual strand of this magnificent beard is alone tougher than Chuck Norris.
Rabble rabble rabble rabble.
I'm 22 and have only been playing TRPGs since late 2012.
So I'm grumpy, yes (though I prefer to call it "passionate about game design" =p) but not a grognard.
*Blink blink*
And you've been involved in over a dozen campaigns now?
Now THAT is making up for lost time.
Nice =D
Maybe he is a PbPer, they can often have dozens of simultaneously running games?
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22? Man I've got dice twice as old as you. Grumble grumble. Uphill. Both ways... In the snow... Bah... baaaaah! Off with ye then.
Whippersnappers talking about Chuck Norris... Sheesh... The reason I dont shave my grognard beard is because each individual strand of this magnificent beard is alone tougher than Chuck Norris.
Rabble rabble rabble rabble.
Only twice as old? Whippersnapper! ;-)
Only twice as old? Whippersnapper! ;-)22? Man I've got dice twice as old as you. Grumble grumble. Uphill. Both ways... In the snow... Bah... baaaaah! Off with ye then.
Whippersnappers talking about Chuck Norris... Sheesh... The reason I dont shave my grognard beard is because each individual strand of this magnificent beard is alone tougher than Chuck Norris.
Rabble rabble rabble rabble.
As a grognard, I respect the civil war reenactment group... The original larper. Hats off to ye. Larping gives you twice as many years uphill in the snow both ways. For fun!
22? Man I've got dice twice as old as you. Grumble grumble. Uphill. Both ways... In the snow... Bah... baaaaah! Off with ye then.
Whippersnappers talking about Chuck Norris... Sheesh... The reason I dont shave my grognard beard is because each individual strand of this magnificent beard is alone tougher than Chuck Norris.
Rabble rabble rabble rabble.
Even though I am not a grognard I also have dice older than he is, I raided some old board games from the 70's I think for d6s back when I was new. My parents never missed them.
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Never thought it would happen, but it did, guess I am now a grognard as I have been playing for 25 years, and many of my dice are older than several generations of players. However IMO it is the job of grognards to be the guardians and proponents of gaming in general, and NOT a jackwagon who throws around the idea that he or she is better than players with less experience or years in the hobby. Grognards should be teaching, not ***ching.
Was not born early enough to fall into the 70's game, but I do think that plenty of the following generation or two of TTRPG players have now also becoming part of that grouping, though I also hope that we are redefining what being a grognard means now and days. Really should be a positive thing, not an elitist or judgmental thing.
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And holy hell that damn nostalgia insult just keeps pissing me off more and more each time I see someone use it. Because there is absolutely 0 reason what-so-ever than anyone could possibly like something older than what is out now than nostalgia. Zero reason. *rollseyes* As I mentioned in other threads: New = good old = bad is about as moronically stupid as old = good new = bad, yet I see more people spout off the first than the second. Both mindsets are stupid to have, but I see more people with the first than the second, and they are more likely to shove it in your face than those with the latter mindset, and in greater numbers.'OTOH, nostalgia does exist and I'm well aware it does color my memories of the older systems.
It's far from the only reason to like them of course.
I know nostalgia exists, and it applies to some. But to write off everyone's positive opinions on older editions as "NOSTALGIA! *rabble rabble*" is asinine. I see this with so many people, especially newer people to whatever it is (D&D and World of Warcraft are where I see it the most, though any type of gaming sees large amounts of this).
Nostalgia exists, and hits everyone at some point. But not every time someone says they prefer the old thing means it is caused by nostalgia.
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So I started playing RPGs in 1984, does that make me a Grognard?
Also, if its relevant I took a 17 year break and caught on to the tail end of 3.5
I say if you feel like a grognard, all experienced and what not, then you are...though others are free to disagree as they see fit.
So it all depends on how crotchety I can sound, I can do cocoon :-)
I'll be 44 this year and I started playing RPG's when I was 12 so that MIGHT make me a grognard? But it's not a term that I embrace or want to be referred to as. Not really a positive thing in my opinion.
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They normally started with 2nd edition D&D or earlier. However not everyone who started early is a grognard.
Their beliefs(many, but maybe not all see the game like this):
The GM is God. You will not question the GM. If you don't like it you can go home.
Likes old school(very difficult) games.
Prefers less rules set in stone, and would prefer for the player(not the character) to be the one doing things such as finding traps and handling diplomacy.
May strongly believe in Gygax's mantra of kill the character, that is what they are there for.
Dice only exist to make noise, the GM should ignore them any time he pleases.
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Not all of them are really grumpy old men, but many of them write that way, so that is the common perception.
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A Grognard is someone who played naval/space miniature wargames in a parking lot using tape measures and slide rules (calculators weren't small enough then). They were also equipped with pocket protectors and normally wore black government issue-style glasses.
Another species of Grognard played table-top or more often gym floor sized games of miniature combat (land/naval/space) also using tape measures. These were usually Napoleonic or American Civil War wargamers.
Another lesser species played table top wargames utilizing cardboard counters, with some maps requiring floor space or wall space, these also required pin holes in the cardboard counters.
Newer species of Grognards have played table top miniatures games involving Fantasy armies or smaller wargames that require only a single table for play.
Some of the newest, shiniest species of Grognards play what is refered to as a "role-playing game" or RPG, which seem to be decended from certain miniatures games that utilized very small units, even individual combatants.
Don't let my youthful appearance fool you, I am a Grognard, and I have played naval miniatures in many parking lots.
I started with First Ed. AD&D (eff D&D!), but then I took a…oh, 22 year break after high school.
I was never at a table with any sort of game mastery. We were kids! (this would be from about age 7 to 17.)
I'm just glad that friends pointed me towards Pathfinder.
I don't count myself as a grognard in any way, as my thinking has never been set in stone, nor did I have any truly rad mechanical game experience from my youth (see above) (yes, used the word 'rad')…so I feel like I finally learned how to play by the rules just a few years ago.
But I do have Dragon #48! 1st Edition Gamma World! Old Ral Partha figurines!
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I'm 22 and have only been playing TRPGs since late 2012.
So I'm grumpy, yes (though I prefer to call it "passionate about game design" =p) but not a grognard.
*Blink blink*
And you've been involved in over a dozen campaigns now?
Now THAT is making up for lost time.
Nice =D
Maybe he is a PbPer, they can often have dozens of simultaneously running games?
That'd be true, yes. I like play by post. It gives me more time to think about what I'm going to say in a game, and makes it fit better. Plus, being able to spend 5-10 minutes per game every day, spread out over a convenient time period work better for me than being in most live games.
I've decided that every time I see the nostalgia/rose-colored glasses thing, I'll just call that post out as being angry that the poster lacks the imagination, creativity, and intelligence to play in a more fluid system.
Oh, and that they are an a@$!%$~.
I'm not sure why you're so mad, exactly. I didn't say anyone was an a%#~$!% for enjoying older games, or that nostalgia in and of itself was bad, or even that nostalgia is the only reason anyone could enjoy older games.
I said the people who cling to their nostalgia too hard, and like to act as though they have a moral high ground over people who have started playing games more recently. As I said, acting like they're a better person because they've played a board game for 40+ years.
I'm sure you know the exact people I'm talking about. Quite a few of them lurk on these boards.
The people that rage, constantly, about how new gamers are ruining the hobby with their newfangled ideas like "The GM shouldn't be the biggest dick he possibly can to all his players" and "The group does not need to be made up of a Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard EVERY TIME" and then brag about how they're on these forums constantly, but actually hate Pathfinder and everyone who plays it.
Unless that describes you...you shouldn't be angry.
Though you're edging pretty close with your "If you don't like playing this specific board game you must be stupid and dumb and unimaginative" comment.
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It's French for a grumbler. It was also the term used for a veteran grenadier of Napoleon's Imperial Guard whose service and loyalty had earned him the right to complain (grumble), even to the Emperor himself.
From that it was adopted by the American wargaming community to refer to people who were part of the hobby before the (if memory serves) 1970s when the hobby saw a large influx of new players. They adopted it due to the implied Old Guard meaning.
Exactly right.
I first heard this term in the mid-early 90s. Our little Warhammer group joined up with a larger society of miniatures-based wargamers who met up once a month (we took over pretty much the whole upper floor of a community center). They were all playing carefully orchestrated reenactments of civil war battles, Napoleon battles, WW II battles, etc., all with literally thousands of gorgeous hand painted miniatures.
Now THOSE GUYS, those were the grognards!!!
They normally started with 2nd edition D&D or earlier. However not everyone who started early is a grognard.
Their beliefs(many, but maybe not all see the game like this):
The GM is God. You will not question the GM. If you don't like it you can go home.
Likes old school(very difficult) games.
Prefers less rules set in stone, and would prefer for the player(not the character) to be the one doing things such as finding traps and handling diplomacy.
May strongly believe in Gygax's mantra of kill the character, that is what they are there for.
Dice only exist to make noise, the GM should ignore them any time he pleases.
I started playing AD&D in 1980 and generally consider myself to be a grognard.
That said, this list misses me by a country mile:
I can't stand playing with GMs who don't know the rules and just make up whatever they want.
I think the game should be challenging, but only in that it makes the players think. A soulcrushing grind down to your last hit points is never fun.
I prefer that the rules are set in stone. PFS's attitude towards the RAW suits me just fine.
Character deaths make for interesting stories. A game without any chance of meaningful death or failure is boring.
There is a name for GMs who ignore the dice. That name is cheater.
But if you REALLY wanna see me get all crotchety, just show up with your Catfolk Summoner and constantly derail the game talking about what a special snowflake you are...
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It's French for a grumbler. It was also the term used for a veteran grenadier of Napoleon's Imperial Guard whose service and loyalty had earned him the right to complain (grumble), even to the Emperor himself.
From that it was adopted by the American wargaming community to refer to people who were part of the hobby before the (if memory serves) 1970s when the hobby saw a large influx of new players. They adopted it due to the implied Old Guard meaning.
The term has since mutated to refer to those people who prefer older versions of wargames and role playing games (since our hobby grew out of theirs). It can be a pejorative, a complement, or neutral depending on who's using it and who they're using it about. However the grumbling aspect of the original term has more currency now than the veteran soldier part.
It's an old term. You wouldn't understand, you haven't been around long enough to remember those days.
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I'm not sure why you're so mad, exactly.
Because I'm really sick of a*#!%$!s on this board presuming that the only reason someone could possibly disagree with their game preference is nostalgia. Telling someone that their opinion isn't REALLY their opinion is 100% proof of being an a&~~+!%. And, as I said, it happens in every single thread where a game from before 3rx edition is mentioned.
So if you don't feel.that you did this, then maybe you.aren't an a#~!%*+.
Maybe.
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Or at least, I'm not an a!*+%#~ for THAT reason.
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I started playing in '79, both Moldvay basic and AD&D, and the only guys I consider "grognards" are the dudes with the painted minis, tape measures, and a sand box. Seriously, only the old school war gamers that were around before the three brown books probably actually merit the honor. Everyone else is a n00b, frankly. ;-)
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I see this way more in the "scripted death" games of today than I ever did back in the "let the dice fall where they may" sandbox days.
Dice only exist to make noise, the GM should ignore them.
I'm guess that wraith is weighting the "do whatever it takes to make a good/engaging game" attitude of the earlier editions vs. the general harshness you (and I) are associating with those systems HD.
But I am with HD on this one - only in the post 2e era has their really been a push for "make the players happy, even if it means running a death-less game/ignore bad dice rolls" vs. the older style of "just roll up a new guy".
So ignoring dice as it factors into player potential death/unhappiness seems more new school than old school. To this grognard at least.
Or at least, I'm not an a#~!*!& for THAT reason.
I think you're cool Rainjim:D
I started playing in '79, both Moldvay basic and AD&D, and the only guys I consider "grognards" are the dudes with the painted minis, tape measures, and a sand box. Seriously, only the old school war gamers that were around before the three brown books probably actually merit the honor. Everyone else is a n00b, frankly. ;-)Ah. So "grognard" is "Someone who started playing before me."
Possibly, for some including "Me".
That actually seems to fit the usage pretty well. :)
I can go along with this. I started in the late 70s and there were people with all sorts of minis and stories of things Before Me. But I don't identify with the term nor does most of the list someone posted above really click with how I play or what I believe about gaming.