# Do I *have* to use all 20 points?

### Pathfinder Society

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If I'm making a new character, do I have to use all 20 points?

For instance, 14, 14, 14, 14, 13, 7 only uses 19. Could I use that array or could I not since it doesn't use all 20?

Why would you not increase the 7 to an 8 and use that point? Is having a -2 that much more important than having a -1?

 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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I would say no, if only to prevent trolls from creating wizards with 0 points point buy.

Cause then he'll be one point over.
going from an 8 to a 7 returns 2 points.

Bill Dunn wrote:
Why would you not increase the 7 to an 8 and use that point? Is having a -2 that much more important than having a -1?

Because without changing anything else that equals a 21 point buy which is definitely not allowed.

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

20 is what you must spend.

There are a few combinations where 19 is possible.

Those combinations would be unavailable.

PRD wrote:
Purchase: Each character receives a number of points to spend on increasing his basic attributes. In this method, all attributes start at a base of 10. A character can increase an individual score by spending some of his points. Likewise, he can gain more points to spend on other scores by decreasing one or more of his ability scores. No score can be reduced below 7 or raised above 18 using this method. See Table: Ability Score Costs for the costs of each score. After all the points are spent, apply any racial modifiers the character might have.

I'm of the opinion that you do not need to spend all 20. I'm not sure if the rules spell it out one way or another.

Weird question, but a good one.

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

It's actually been a frequently asked question.

I cannot recall a time where the answer was strongly "yes".

 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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If your character has not spent 20 points, then he is not built using 20 point buy and is not PFS legal.

EvilMinion wrote:

Cause then he'll be one point over.

going from an 8 to a 7 returns 2 points.

Ah, I was assuming he was starting with a 7 as a result of a stat penalty. So I figured he'd really be going from a 9 to a 10 and then applying the penalty...

 Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
If your character has not spent 20 points, then he is not built using 20 point buy and is not PFS legal.

I have to agree on this one. You must spend all your points as per pg 15 of the CRB.

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

mechanically you can have 14 14 14 14 12 8 as your stat block and be a 20pt buy but you can't (it appears) have the possibly better 14 14 14 14 13 7 stat array. That might actually be mechanically better for some builds as you would have two stats that would benefit from your 4th and your 8th level stat bumps if you chose to use them - and depending on your character concept it and race selection it offers some greater flexibility than many other arrays.

does anyone have a list of all of the possible legal arrays? (perhaps highlighting the ones that make the most sense to actually use?)

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Rycaut wrote:

does anyone have a list of all of the possible legal arrays? (perhaps highlighting the ones that make the most sense to actually use?)

claudekennilol wrote:

If I'm making a new character, do I have to use all 20 points?

For instance, 14, 14, 14, 14, 13, 7 only uses 19. Could I use that array or could I not since it doesn't use all 20?

As others have said, by the rules, you have to use 20-point buy.

However, it's not usually to hard to finagle getting an effectively lower one by applying racial bonuses to scores that are lower than the highest. However I don't believe it's possible with that exact array, assuming you wanted to increase one of the 14's to a 16.

If you wanted to +2 the 13 to 15, you could buy 15,14,14,14,12,7, and +2 the 12 to 14. Depends on race and such.

claudekennilol wrote:
Do I *have* to use all 20 points?

Yes. You also have to spend all of your skill points, use all of your feat slots, and take two traits.

I mean, heck, the APG pregens were pulled once someone realized they were 15-point, why would 19-point be legal?

This is another April Fools joke post, right? Seriously?

roll4initiative wrote:
This is another April Fools joke post, right? Seriously?

Nope, I've got a melee character that I want str, dex, con, and wis on and wanted 13 int to qualify for prereqs. Dumped cha to 7.

I am new so I may very well step on thing along the way...

But if you want an INT of 13 for prereqs, when do you need that prereq? If it is 4th level or later than you can raise the 12 to a 13 then get the stuff you want.

Just a thought.

What race Claude? Because any of the half/humans could make this (14 14 14 11 14 9) into this (14 14 14 13 14 9)
or a dwarf could make this (14 14 12 14 12 11) into (14 14 14 14 14 9)

Gary Bush wrote:

I am new so I may very well step on thing along the way...

But if you want an INT of 13 for prereqs, when do you need that prereq? If it is 4th level or later than you can raise the 12 to a 13 then get the stuff you want.

Just a thought.

Raising a middle stat is mechanically the least efficient way of going about it. A 12 to 13 is only one point, your highest stat should be worth 2 or 3.

I mean, I was just messing around with options and thought this was a pretty good array. Assuming I made a human, the +2 would have gone into strength, being primarily a melee character.

Making a melee hunter.
str/dex/con/wis at 14
str 14 for to hit / damage (probably increased to 16 via human)
dex 14 for medium armor (so dex to ac) for mobility and combat reflexes
con 14 because melee
wis 14 for hunter spells

int 13 for prereqs

and cha 7 so that the rest work.

So the above actually worked pretty well for the concept and didn't go over hence my question.

I mean, sure, it'd take a very specific build to use this array and not make it just as usable via racial mods, but like I said, it was more of an "is this allowed" not "I made this character and need to know if it's legal".

You don't really need 14 WIS on this hunter. You can bump it with a stat headband by the time you'd get to level 4 spells and you're obviously not targeting save or sucks.

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Serisan wrote:
You don't really need 14 WIS on this hunter. You can bump it with a stat headband by the time you'd get to level 4 spells and you're obviously not targeting save or sucks.

"Hah! Wisdom?! What a worthless ability score!"

A nasally and abrasive voice shouts at your from across the room. Looking over, you see what can best be described as a goblin. Covered in patches of fur and dozens of scars, the little gremlin makes eye contact with you before continuing

"As I was saying, I dumped the s**t out of that stat and never looked back. You sound like that guy who tried to convince me I needed Charisma if I was going to be a skald. Proved him wrong too!"

The off-putting creature leans back and laughs heartily, generating a surprising amount of noise for such a small thing.

The patrons nearest to the 'goblin' find other seats quickly thereafter.

Little Rukk wrote:
Serisan wrote:
You don't really need 14 WIS on this hunter. You can bump it with a stat headband by the time you'd get to level 4 spells and you're obviously not targeting save or sucks.

"Hah! Wisdom?! What a worthless ability score!"

A nasally and abrasive voice shouts at your from across the room. Looking over, you see what can best be described as a goblin. Covered in patches of fur and dozens of scars, the little gremlin makes eye contact with you before continuing

"As I was saying, I dumped the s**t out of that stat and never looked back. You sound like that guy who tried to convince me I needed Charisma if I was going to be a skald. Proved him wrong too!"

The off-putting creature leans back and laughs heartily, generating a surprising amount of noise for such a small thing.

The patrons nearest to the 'goblin' find other seats quickly thereafter.

The difference between a 13 WIS and 14 WIS is the ability to clear out the phantom point that's floating around and preventing the array from working.

Serisan wrote:
Little Rukk wrote:
Serisan wrote:
You don't really need 14 WIS on this hunter. You can bump it with a stat headband by the time you'd get to level 4 spells and you're obviously not targeting save or sucks.

"Hah! Wisdom?! What a worthless ability score!"

A nasally and abrasive voice shouts at your from across the room. Looking over, you see what can best be described as a goblin. Covered in patches of fur and dozens of scars, the little gremlin makes eye contact with you before continuing

"As I was saying, I dumped the s**t out of that stat and never looked back. You sound like that guy who tried to convince me I needed Charisma if I was going to be a skald. Proved him wrong too!"

The off-putting creature leans back and laughs heartily, generating a surprising amount of noise for such a small thing.

The patrons nearest to the 'goblin' find other seats quickly thereafter.

The difference between a 13 WIS and 14 WIS is the ability to clear out the phantom point that's floating around and preventing the array from working.

You're missing the entire point of the question. I need no help theorycrafting. The question is "is this legal"? Nothing more. Nothing less. More specifically, I couldn't care less about 4th level spells on this character--he'll never even have them. I do care about other wis benefits. Regarding spells specifically, I care about having a bonus 2nd level spell to cast.

But more importantly, that has absolutely nothing to do with the question. The question (as just stated) is simply "is this legal?"

And you've been shown it's not.