This is my first post here on Paizo, and I am here to share a build that my friend, Mike, and myself, Mike, have created. Here lately, we have been getting bored at work, and have started to Min-Max, just to see what we could come up with. This is one of our works, which we are referring to as The Green Arrow. Should be obvious what this character is based around. Archery.
I would like some feedback, and if at all we have messed up on any rules anywhere, I would like to be informed! We are following Pathfinder Society High Fantasy rules for the stats. Sometimes when it comes to Min-Maxing, we lean towards something we believe most GM's (in our experiences, not necessarily yours) would be okay with. However, I do not believe we made such an assumption on this particular build, hence why I wish to share this one first. Unless you include the Hero Point system, which this is dependent on. Well here he is!
Elf Fighter Lv.20
Base+Racial+Levels+Perm.Increase+Equips=Total
Str= 18+0+0+4+6=28 (+9)
Dex= 18+2+5+5+6=36 (+13)
Con= 7-2+0+0+6=11 (0)
Wis= 7+0+0+0+6=13 (+1)
Int= 8+2+0+0+6=16 (+3)
Cha= 7+0+0+0+6=13 (+1)
You need to take Antihero for this to work.
Lv1- Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Precise Shot
Lv2- Weapon Specialization
Lv3- Point Blank Master
Lv4- Rapid Shot
Lv5- Stabbing Shot
Lv6- Manyshot
Lv7- Snap Shot
Lv8- Combat Reflexes
Lv9- Deadly Aim
Lv10- Improved Snap Shot
Lv11- Improved Precise Shot
Lv12- Greater Snap Shot
Lv13- Greater Weapon Focus
Lv14- Greater Weapon Specialization
Lv15- Critical Focus
Lv16- Pinpoint Targeting
Lv17- Bleeding Critical
Lv18- Staggering Critical
Lv19- Stunning Critical
Lv20- Critical Mastery
Before you go on about costs and everything, do a little research on this. As a High Fantasy campaign with the 20 point buy system for stats, you can have up to twice the expected wealth of a standard Lv20 character. That standard wealth is 880,000 gold. To double this and actually use up all of the money is insane, and I do not know how someone can honestly do this in any way...
Weapon: +5 Composite Longbow with +9 Strength Modification and Endless Ammunition, with any other magical effects to round out to +10
Armor: +5 Masterwork Darkleaf Cloth Quilted Armor of Heavy Fortification
Head: Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Headband: Headband of Mental Superiority
Neck: Amulet of Natural Armor +5
Eyes: Eyes of the Dragon
Shoulder: Cloak of Displacement, Major
Chest: Spectral Shroud
Body: Otherworldly Kimono
Belt: Belt of Physical Perfection
Feet: Boots of Striding and Springing
Wrists: Bracers of Falcon's Aim
Hands: Gloves of Dueling
Rings: Ring of Protection +5, Ring of Evasion
Slotless: Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Manual of Gainful Exercise +4
Manual of Quickness of Action +5
So from here we talk about ability to kill. Something to point out, before I explain everything, this archer is designed to be close to his or her enemy. Most everything, to equate how I have it written, requires a range no further than 30ft.
This character, when all and all are added up together, have the following attack bonuses with a full attack action. 40/40/35/30/25. It is to be noted, the first 40 is actually two attacks due to the Manyshot feat, and the second is from Rapid Shot. The damage for each of these are 1d8+50. How do you come up with this?
Damage Modifier= +5 Weapon +13 Dex +9 Str +4 Weapon Training + 17 from Feats(+12 from Deadly Aim[-6 to Attack Roll] +1 Point Blank Shot within 30ft +4 Weapon Specializations) +2 from Glove of Dueling =50
Keep in mind, this is without any other damage sources, such as energy damages from weapon enchantments. With the feats that are selected, you also threaten a 15ft radius around you with your Composite Longbow, and with the feats, you also get an extra 6 damage on Attacks of Opportunity to equal 56 bonus to Attacks of Opportunity.
Now you also have a Crit Threat of 19-20/x4. A single crit on any of these attacks is an instant 200 damage without rolling. Just to add insult to injury, due to Critical Mastery, the enemy who gets crit and survives will be either Stunned or Staggered while bleeding 2d6 per turn(which is stack-able according to the feat!). If this character were to hit all 6 attacks as a crit(which is automatically confirmed), you would do 1200 damage before you even rolled a die for damage.
So this character must be pretty weak right? Actually hitting this point is going to be hard, due to the huge negative in Con throughout leveling, but once level 20, his or her AC of 41 makes them quite survivable in near close range combat.
AC= 10 Base +6 Armor(+5 Quilted) +13 Dex(Armor Training mixed with Darkleaf Cloth to hit a higher maximum allowed Dex Bonus) +12 from Equipment such as the head, neck, ring, and Ioun Stone. All of this adds to a 41 with a very restrictive DR3/-(look up Quilted Armor if you want to know the details of it)
To add to this characters effectiveness are plenty of utility based equipment and feats. The Elvish feat Stabbing Shot allows the character to push back an enemy with a melee attack from your first drawn arrow. This basically acts as a withdraw ability, except you force your enemy to shift 5ft so you can move freely without taking attacks of opportunity. They then must move through your 15ft threat range to again be able to attack you within melee range.
When it comes to concealment or cover, only 100% of either makes any difference at all. To top this off, the player has a constant ability to see invisibility due to the Spectral Shroud. Even furthering this effect, the Eyes of the Dragon give the archer Blindsense 60ft and doubles the range the character can see compared to their standard Elvish Sights, on top of bestowing 120ft Darkvision. This archer can sense anyone within 60ft and can see all invisibility. Throw in the Otherworldly Kimono, and you now can cast Maze at something you can not handle.
Sound like you need to just throw an impossible AC at this character in the form of a tank? Well, with Pinpoint Targeting, you basically can take a Single Attack as a Touch Attack, although that is not how it is worded. Plus, with the base movement speed of 40ft, due to the feet slot, this archer can pop off shots at any range necessary to keep a heavy tank character away from them. They will only be taking the single shot each time, so the 30ft rule does not need to apply quite as much.
Well there you have it. This is our Fighter Archer Min-Maxed to what we think is a ridiculously powerful character. Please leave your comments on the build, but not how you would defeat it. Min-Maxing leaves plenty of holes in a character, but we just enjoy pushing the limits of it as best as we can. If we have messed up the RAW (not RAI, because lets face it, RAI is opinion, although you are welcome to share your opinion on RAI!) please correct us! We would like to make more Min-Maxed characters to share with the community in the future, to include our Codename Aquaman, which needs to be reworked.(Can you see the theme? It started with a certain Merfolk Tank...) Thank you for reading!
How you are supposed to add dexterity to damage rolls?
You also have a will save of +11, full casters could snap their finger and declare you dead. Maze won't save you, as wizards can beat your initiative even at level 1 (they can get up to +18 (+20 if buffing, but that would deplate them), if I remember correctly). I'm not sure about the survivability of this build.
Hm, I think I did overlook something on that. My bad, I bounce from DnD Editions like crazy with rules, which is why I need people to point to us what we blur the lines on. As I said though, ElMustacho, the point of this is not for a playable character, just to push the limits of the rules. For some reason, I was thinking that Dex was automatically used for ranged damage, as within 5th Edition... Not sure why. Even then, taking a 13 out of the damage gives you a 37 damage modifier, which is a 148 automatically on a single crit, and with all 6 crits, still without even rolling, is 888 damage.
Sorry to bust you but that's just an average looking archer with too much money and dump stats (really, dumping cos...).
You still got a long way to go. If you want a crash course on what eldritch horrors rutinely come up on this boards, just do a quick search for the oradin. Or any summoner threads.
You can use them to impress your partner.
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Ok so how about this instead. Not quite as tweaked stat spread wise but far more survivable. (I'm going to assume certain items by level 20 and stay PFS legal, but I'll list them (far less variation across GMs and campaigns IMO)). Also, it is not going to be prepared for a lot due to items not listed, but generally relies on having some other people in the party (I have played a very similar character to level 12 (I've made some small changes))
Human Fighter (no archetype) - 20 point buy
Traits: Defender of the Society, Observant
Str: 14 + 6 (belt of physical perfection) = 20
Dex: 16 + 2 (racial) + 6 (belt) + 5 (all levels) + 1 (Manual of quickness of action) = 30
Con: 12 + 6 = 18
Int: 10
Wis: 14 + 6 (headband, could probably afford all 3 stats) = 20
Cha: 8
1st: Point-Blank, Precise and Rapid Shot
2nd: Weapon Focus
3: Deadly Aim
4: Weapon specialization
5: Iron Will
6: Clustered Shots
7: Manyshot
8: Greater Weapon Focus
9: Improved Critical
10: Point Blank Master
11: Improved Precise Shot
12: Greater Weapon Specialization
13: Improved Iron Will
14: Combat Reflexes
15: Snap Shot
16: Improved Snap Shot
17: Greater Snap Shot
18: Additional Traits [Fate's Favored, Narrow's Survivor]
19: Great Fortitude
20: Improved Great Fortitude
you could realistically re-order a lot of these (especially after level 7)
+ 5 Adaptive Darkwood Longbow (51630)
+6 belt of physical perfection (144k)
+5 Cloak (25k)
Gloves of Dueling (15k)
+6 Headband (36k)
Pale Green Ioun Stone (28k, flawed or 4k for cracked (for saves))
Stone of Good Luck (20k)
Clear Spindle Ioun stone (Resonated) (4k)
Wayfinder (250)
+ 5 Mithral Full Plate (35500)
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (5k)
Eyes of the Dragon (110k)
Ring of Protection +5 (50k)
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50k)
Greater Bracers of Archery (25k)
This totals to just under 600k gold. Leaving you 280k to spend otherwise, but I'm not worried about it at the moment. Also, for armor there may be a better option than mithral full plate but at +9 with a max dex of +7 it's pretty good and most other options are actually more expensive (it beats a mithral breast plate by 1 total for an extra 5k)), and yes there are other items that help and I left of for ease and the time it took to remember them.
AC = 10 + 9 (full plate) + 7 (dex) + 5 (ring) + 5 (neck) + 2 (jingasa w/ fate's favored) = 38 (could probably pump this more, but I wasn't really trying) with DR 5/- (fighter level 19)
Saves
Fort = 12 (base) + 4 (con) + 2 (great fort) + 5 (cloak) + 2 (stone of good luck +fate) +1 (pale green)= 26 with one re-roll per day
Ref = 6 + 10 + 5 + 2 + 1 = 24
Will = 6 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 2 = 1 = 21 with 1 re-roll per day and immunity to possession and mind control from evil sources
HP: 226 (assumes PFS rules max roll at first level, 6 as the roll for the rest and favored class bonus at every level)
Initiative = 10 (dex) + 1 (trait) + 2 (stone of good luck) (yes Initiative is an ability check) = 13
Attack = 20 (BAB) + 10 (Dex) + 1 (PBS) + 5 (bow) + 2 (bracers) + 1 (Ioun stone) + 4 (Weapon training) + 2 (gloves) + 2 (Weapon Focuses) = 47
So in all likelihood, you are looking at
39/39/34/29/24 - with the first arrow hitting twice, confirming all crits on a 19-20 x4 automatically without provoking ever. (And on AoO's at +41 with 6 extra damage)
Damage = 1d8 + 5 (STR) + 1 (PBS) + 12 (DA) + 4 (Weapon Training) + 2 (gloves) + 1 (bracers) + 5 (bow) + 4 (Weapon Specs) + 1 (PBS) = 1d8 + 35 (36 minimum, 42 on an AoO)
If all 6 arrow hit min damage 198 dmg, DR only applies once.
Max Damage no crits 252
Max damage all crits = 1032 dmg
Assuming AC 36 DR 15/- Expected Damage (average AC CR20, should probably be a bit higher, but it's off the CR chart) = 227.925
This is all assuming no buffs which could add damage, to hit, extra attacks, etc. Also, not including any unlisted items.
Final totals, my damage is 2 worse per arrow and I don't have anything depending on crits (so yes your double bleed will help, but honestly you are killing everything in a couple rounds without them)
My AC is slightly worse but I didn't try and functionally it doesn't matter much since monsters are hitting us pretty much all the time, if they get close enough.
I don't provoke AoO's if I'm cornered and I only take off DR once (a big win for me)
At level 20 you have 124 hp, I have 226 (I might survive getting attacked a couple times you won't)
And my saves are significantly better, meaning I have a chance of not killing my party.
Because of clustered shots my DPR surpasses your min/max build, though that's a pretty easy fix Even so the two builds end up within 10 points of dmg on a full attack (expected value, and I didn't include the extra crit dmg on your part because it varies so much depending on what you choose and what the enemy type is)
Like I said, this was never meant to be a playable character. He is quite worthless, and the odds of this character ever hit level 20 is slim to none. At no point was survivability in question. We simply wanted to see what the max damage output we could come up with while dumping quite literally everything else.
I already said the Dex to Damage was my bad, I currently am playing DnD 5th Edition on Twitch. Actually that is tonight too. 5th Edition has twisted many rules, in my opinion, and Dex is automatically usable for damage... You can see I corrected this issue in my first reply.
As for Clustered Shots, that is awesome! We never saw that feat, and I agree that it needs to be within this build. Never did we plan on playing this character, never would we Min-Max something to the extreme of having them die at level one. Why any of you would bring up the save throws of this character that would clearly die before they mattered is beyond me. It is merely a test to see how far you can push a certain single aspect, this one being Archery DPR. Nothing else really matters but the ability to put damage down.
Could this character design work in a campaign? Maybe, if everyone in the entire campaign was Min-Maxed specifically to be overpowered in one thing and make up for someone else's failings at the same time. However, what fun would actually roleplaying a character that is mentally challenged but knows how to use a bow? I clearly said not to say how it can be defeated, that Min-Maxing to the extreme leaves plenty of holes in a character design. Thank you for pointing out Clustered Shots though, I can not believe we missed that one.
Oh yeah, the Weap Spec... What the hell happened there? I know it requires Fighter Lv4, so not sure how it ended up where it was... Rapid Shot and Stabbing Shot should be bumped up before it. Not quite sure how I messed that one up at all...
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Mostly mine was in response to another poster, then I started seeing what I could end up (and is extremely playable) with versus the completely min/max version (I did get that yours wasn't meant for play). Sorry if it came up otherwise, it had been a long night. I hadn't actually ever fully theory crafted to 20 (since I'll likely never make it there)
As far as your actual build goes for min maxing I think you missed two things (dex and clustered shot), both of which you mentioned later, and the greater bracers of archery. I hadn't seen Eyes of the Dragon before so those were cool. (and really good)
There may be some other tricks, in thee higher level stuff that works to get you more damage (comboing vital strike chain, focused shot (adds int mod to damage), and pinpoint targeting is a possibility for those times you need to single shoot). (I understand not including Point-blank master as it doesn't explicitly help your attacks, but I think it fits for those just in case moments where something does get close, keep full attacking with no consequence)
Also, generally I think the snap shot chain under performs the investment level, but for pure damage per round it probably fits (unless a better option presents itself)
Actually Barton, Point Blank Master is on there! I was wondering why you threw out the whole AoO thing as if we did not have that feat... I messed up how soon we would take it, granted, because I somehow put Weapon Spec at level 2 and not 4. It would be our Lv5 Feat, definitely. The concept of needing to be within 30ft for the optimal effect, and the 15ft threat range for AoO's makes it a must.
Greater Bracers of Archery were actually originally a part of the build, but I switched them out for the 19-20 Crit Rate from Bracers of Falcon's Aim. If you have a way, besides constantly being buffed by the spell itself, to give the 19-20 Crit Rate, then the other bracers definitely fit better. As for Focused Shot, we actually started down that route to begin with, until we noticed it was a Single Attack Action. For overall DPR, we found it to be mostly useless, and with the stat dumping of a 20 point buy system, we could get more for getting +9 on the Str at the end of the build instead of Int.
I have also thought about getting Str the 5 extra from leveling and getting to +12 in the end with it, but even with Min-Maxing for DPR, you still need to be able to hit the enemy at least once to consider yourself doing any damage at all. As for the armor, granted we do not get the higher base stats and bonuses of FP armor, but the Darkleaf Cloth Armor was kind of nice. The Darleaf Cloth Quilted Armor has a maximum Dex Bonus of +14, and already being +6 due to being naturally 1 with a +5, the armor itself gives you 19 AC, with a possibility of hitting 20 AC from just the armor if you manage to get another +1 out of Dex.
You have been the most constructive towards the goal of this post Barton, so do not think my last comment directed towards you. It was more of a mass reply than anything.
.... Ok, this was not a conversion, the name of it was just a joke mainly... Did anyone read it before instantly moving it? This is a discussion on a Min-Maxed Archery Damage Per Round, not actually making The Green Arrow as a character for someone to play... Codename, not Named...
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Wow, totally missed that point-blank master was on there. I didn't take bracers of falcon aim because they aren't PFS legal (hence dropping the feat on improved crit). If you play a specific module there is also a keen longbow available (yes, I know it should be illegal, but in PFS the chronicle sheet wins)
Wow, I forgot that so many critical feats don't have the need for Improved Critical in their chain.
Also, 1 nice thing about Snap shot is the AoO's don't provoke even if you don't have point-blank master.
Yeah the quilted works really well, if you are going anything besides fighter basically. Fighter I think ends up at 21 AC out of the armor.
I'd be interested to see where a Zen Archer ended up, I know they are front loaded to all hell.
Well our theory behind using the Quilted Armor was we were originally thinking the max dex bonus was universal. I thought it used to be, but with the Pathfinder rules, max dex bonus does not limit any other dex check at all. If it did, the Quilted Armor would be the better choice, but it does not, so it is kind of moot.
Honestly, when it comes to PFS Legalities, I am not that knowledgeable, so I was not aware of the Bracers of Falcon's Aim being illegal. I did not want to dump the feat for Improved Critical, just to have that added insult to injury do to crits being basically crowd control anyway. If anything, you could drop the Stunning Critical, and take just the Staggering Critical at the cost of not having a stagger at the minimum. Honestly, Stunning Critical is kind of insane.
If you do take those extra critical effects away, you open up 5 feats(Crit Foc, Bleeding, Staggering, Stunning, and Crit Mastery). Those open 5 slots do allow Clustered Shots(which is amazing, I am glad I now know of this feat) and allow Improved Critical. This still leaves 3 open for more feats to improve survivability of course.
The main reason we went with Elf though was because of the +2 to Dex and the Stabbing Shot feat. This feat actually took place of Parting Shot, which is a great ability in concept, for a close ranged archer. However, it requires Dodge, Mobility, and Shot on the Run. These 4 feats were tossed aside for the ability to push an enemy away from us in during a full attack action, instead of getting a single attack action while moving.
Does it have to be a min-maxed fighter archer? Because I'm pretty sure a paladin (in their specific niche) or a cavalier (luring cavalier lets you do it at range) can bypass them. Both are slapping +20 damage on all their arrows for a start, double the +4 for weapon spec+greater and the +6 for weapon training.
Actually not sure on the Cavalier, but as for the specific niche of a paladin's abilities, we avoid all specific bonuses that apply towards alignment/types. We merely started off as a fighter for the base class for the extra feats and added Weapon Mastery for higher crit damage. I am not sure you could peak at the highest damage output with a Cavalier Archer as you could with a Fighter one, but I honestly do not know! Can you explain what the +20 comes from so I can better check it out?
Why not go archer arc type for fighter? And for more min/max I would go tiefling oni blood with large limbs alt option to use a large size composite long bow with as high a str bonus as possible and toss in the exceptional pull feat.
As for the Tiefling with Oni Blood and Large Limbs, I am not sure where to find this. Is there any way you could link this to me? I still favor the Elf Feat, Stabbing Shot, however this does raise another point we thought of, but did not calculate in.
That other point ties in to an Archetype for a Fighter. However, this is not the Archer. The only things Archer Archetype actually adds is sacrificing AC for more utility based abilities. Nothing changes Damage Per Round, unless it is up against a large group of enemies standing within a 15ft Square, you then get 9 shots in a single round, to 9 different enemies. This is highly situational, and as I said just above, we avoided situational as much as possible. Being designed to be within 15-30 feet of a creature, and no further, also makes Volley quite useless, along with the other things you sacrifice.
Past that, though, there is the Mutation Fighter. At level 20, you would be able to increase the damage output of your character, while in your mutation, by +4 and your to hit by +3. This is situational, but more under your control than how your DM throws things at you, but it has a heavy sacrifice. You can not be mutated 100% of the time. In order to get that +4 to your strength modifier for damage output would require you to have a bow that can put out damage. Using an Adaptive Bow would actually close the negative from that, but we had overlooked that option originally. This +4 is the only way you could really make a difference with Archetypes, but still makes you sacrifice your armor training for a non-permanent boost.
The Weapon Training abilities already give the same amount of bonuses that the Archer type gets. Freeing up the feat with the At 9th Level gets in to RAW vs RAI. "making ranged attacks with a bow" vs a feat that says "when firing the selected weapon while threatened." Those are written in two completely different ways. The first, as written, suggest that if someone is standing next to you, but you shoot someone else 20ft away, you do not provoke an AoO. However, if you fire at the person who is 5ft in front of you, you are now making an attack at 5ft. I, personally, would prefer the feat that says when firing, period.
As for the Tiefling abilities, this would up the damage dice to 2d6 instead of 1d8, with an extra +1 from STR. That is not so bad, however, this requires heavy DM approval. If your DM allows you to use the variants, you then need to also be allowed to chose the benefits instead of rolling. That is something we were avoiding needing, as much as possible, however you raise a good point for even further maximizing the damage.
I understand the use of code-names and all, but there has to be another name that can be used.
Because this guy, besides shooting a bow, doesn't really resemble or channel anything "Green Arrow"-related.
Lol, there is actually a reason why we chose this due to the fact that we have a tank that is a Merfolk with an AC of 70. We ended up calling him Aquaman as a joke, since he has next to no offensive capabilities, so we kept with the theme of nicknaming them something from at least superhero concepts, if not specifically DC.
Lol, there is actually a reason why we chose this due to the fact that we have a tank that is a Merfolk with an AC of 70. We ended up calling him Aquaman as a joke, since he has next to no offensive capabilities
But Aquaman has offensive capabilities!!!
While yes, this would improve damage to 7 separate targets, but at level 20, odds are you would fight more than 7 enemies a day. So, while this would further the max archery damage in a single round, I do not think of it as a viable DPR increase.
As for the Aquaman thing, I always think back to a Comicon event, it is on YouTube, where voice actors read the script to Star Wars. John DiMaggio played Uncle Owen as Aquaman in one scene, and he said "Or I'll make a whale kick your ass." Or something to that effect. Makes me think of our tank, making everyone else do all the attacking while he stands there looking pretty lol.