for level 12 and up, building a shaman class.
the class is all over the place.
it CAN melee, but not amazingly so.
it CAN blast, but that is a poor choice.
it looks like its power is versatility.
group have:
bard caster and off healer
2 wp crit fiend fighter (very good one! )
archer ranger on a flying roc
a DPR king, off tank magus.
with 25 point buy and low item world (no creation or buying, only found) > what can be done?
throw me the "best " most versatile fun to play builds possible.
1) will base STR of 14 (maybe 16 with item tops) will do for off-melee when spells run low?
2) do you have enough spells \ hexes to not really need to ever melee ? (still need str of min 13 to carry gear but.... no need for power attack etc).
3) arcane enlightenment, although amazing is a MAD thing. i plan on using it, some times, with cha of 14& int of 14, or do you suggest invest more into the int road so i can take more wizard spells?
4) what will be more "efficient" build & fun to play? (i hate being a pure healer - we menage via spells after fights).
Battle as main spirit for melee & lore as off for some mage spells?
flame as main for blasting with life \ lore as off choices?
life as main for spontaneous remove things & battle\lore\flame to change role daily?
feats : somany are amazing , so few to take!
5) will eldritch heritage be worth the 2-3 feats ?
the skill focus, as a human is 2-3 for 1 sale, use magic device or intimidate as the off choice.
arcane = free item i CAN craft and a free spell a day
shadow = hide in plain sight to cast safely (great defence with wisdom in a flesh trait)
hexes:
6) as the witch hex i think, as i use overland flight, to take Slumber OR the hair hex. slumber is the save or suck master, but DM often start to cheat on the save roles :) the hair, with lunge, give a great 15' reach to touch spells. rimed, enforcer frost bite comes to mind...
the other hexes taken, if i wont grab extra hex feat are:
evil eye, fortune, chant for nice de-buff-buff options.
I have a Half-Orc battle shaman and its realy good. Half-Orc fav class bonus lets you add cleric spells to your class list.
So its possible to add divine favor to your spell list and Half-orcs can take the alterntiv trait bonus Sacred tatoo. If you combine this with the Fate's Favored trait you will have +2 to all saves and your divine favor grant X+l uck bonus.
Half-Orcs have great axe proficiency so this is nice weapon to use.
Combine this with power attack and you will deal amazing damage on early levels. Past 8th level the battle shaman has the ablilty to make his weapon bane as a SWIFT action. Expceialy in a low magic compain this will raise the DPR and helps with DR of most some kind.
Yeah, Battle Shaman can work pretty well if your favored class bonus grants Cleric spells. I've been looking at a "Spirit Warrior" battle Shaman with one level of Kata Master Monk - where you use a temple sword for offense and combine the Speaker for the Past's Spirit Shield revelation with Monk AC.
With a Dual Talent Human you can go 18STR/16WIS to start (or better with 25pt buy), combining Cleric Divine Favor and Shaman Barkskin with Kata Master Flurry of Blows and Opportune Parry and Riposte (first level is Kata Master with the Extra Panache feat). Speaker for the Past also grants Heroism and the Temporal Celerity revelation, Spirit of Battle eventually grants nice stuff like Bane and Weapon Specialization: Temple Sword, and you can take the Spirit Talker feat to grab another versatile spirit Hex if you want - like Arcane Enlightenment. So by high level, you've got an unarmored sword-master spellcaster with good AC and all sorts of magical abilities.
I have a Half-Orc battle shaman and its realy good. Half-Orc fav class bonus lets you add cleric spells to your class list.
So its possible to add divine favor to your spell list and Half-orcs can take the alterntiv trait bonus Sacred tatoo. If you combine this with the Fate's Favored trait you will have +2 to all saves and your divine favor grant X+l uck bonus.
Half-Orcs have great axe proficiency so this is nice weapon to use.
Combine this with power attack and you will deal amazing damage on early levels. Past 8th level the battle shaman has the ablilty to make his weapon bane as a SWIFT action. Expceialy in a low magic compain this will raise the DPR and helps with DR of most some kind.
Breiti
sounds nice!
i guess switcing lore (mage spells), life (healing and more), mammoth and flame add ton of versatility.
what's your build?
what's the min STR score needed? (will base of 14, +2 item do the trick, or too low). other than lunge (keep away) and power attack, rest of feats will be meta feats or enforcer for rimed frostbite trick?
human = dual talent or extra feat, both real important as shaman.
1/2 orc = decent weapon (Falchion!), +2 to saves (needed), dark vision, potential bite attack & hair & weapon.
or..... as we play level 12+ it's way better to go full caster, forget melee \ keep str of 13-14 and fight only if \ when no other choice.
With your current group setup, it looks like you have plenty of martial prowess and support already, but no crowd control. You can dump your strength all the way down to 7, or 6 if your GM will allow you to be middle aged, and just use a single casting of Ant's Haul via FCB to carry your gear.
Play like a God wizard. Focus on grabbing good crowd control spells from the cleric and wizard lists, like Burst of Radiance (or Glitterdust) and Black Tentacles to fill in the spell levels where you don't already have good crowd control options. Shamans have Stinking Cloud already, which is excellent. Also grab Summon Monster spells, especially III and up.
You're level 12, so you'll have quite a lot of spell slots and probably won't run out before the end of the day. But if you do, your hexes will keep you going just fine. If you really want to melee, ask your GM if you're allowed to use the Guided weapon property. It was made by Paizo, but technically is 3.5e material.
With your current group setup, it looks like you have plenty of martial prowess and support already, but no crowd control. You can dump your strength all the way down to 7, or 6 if your GM will allow you to be middle aged, and just use a single casting of Ant's Haul via FCB to carry your gear.
Play like a God wizard. Focus on grabbing good crowd control spells from the cleric and wizard lists, like Burst of Radiance (or Glitterdust) and Black Tentacles to fill in the spell levels where you don't already have good crowd control options. Shamans have Stinking Cloud already, which is excellent. Also grab Summon Monster spells, especially III and up.
You're level 12, so you'll have quite a lot of spell slots and probably won't run out before the end of the day. But if you do, your hexes will keep you going just fine. If you really want to melee, ask your GM if you're allowed to use the Guided weapon property. It was made by Paizo, but technically is 3.5e material.
Guided is allowed. And a good advice! Wont it be best to keep str min of 13? For power attacks if i ever do want to battle?
For a caster build, with low dex and str , i can have great wis,int,cha.
So, you suggest :
Life & off lore?
Flame & off life?
The battle will be used on rare options.
From an optimization standpoint in this party, I can tell you that dumping strength for more int/wis/cha and focusing on crowd control and summoning spells will be best. Doing melee yourself will require a lot of point buy, a feat, and either some FCB cleric spells or a melee-centric spirit like Battle or Mammoth. And you already have 3 martials on your team, so that base is well covered.
For your primary spirit, decide what you primarily want to do. If you want to mostly heal, take Life. If you want to mostly blast, take Flame. The Gaze of Flames hex will allow you to see through your cloud spells, giving you a big advantage. If you want good utility, take Heavens with the Heaven's Leap hex. Casting Hex Vulnerability will allow you to use it multiple times in the same day on an ally. If you want to be more flexible with summoning, take Nature with the Friend to Animals hex. For your party, I personally recommend Heavens.
For your wandering spirit, Lore. With the Arcane Enlightenment wandering hex. No real contest.
I have a life spirit shaman, i expect to be a fair combatant with the hair hex, divine Favor, frost bite, and combat reflexes when i am not buffing and doing control things like stikning cloud. I Will use spirit talker to get a few wizard spells when the need is there and favored class bonus to get cleric spells like divine Favor. The hair hex is only 1 natural attack but it is wis based and if you make sure not to have other weapons or take IUS it Will be full Bab and 1,5 times Wisdom to damage. My shaman is a Island on the battlefield for the team to maneuvre around, hide behind or stay on as they see fit.
Starting your Int at 13 base means you can get all the way to level 9 spells with a +6 headband. With Charisma it's as much as the rest of the build will permit - every +1 gives you another juicy wizard spell. 12 Charisma naked & unbuffed seems like a reasonable start, giving you eventually 4 spells with a +6 headband.
13 Int and 12 Cha is only 5 of your 25 point buy. That seems like a reasonable investment given the crazy-good payoff.
*Edit* for using Arcane Enlightenment, consider the Spirit Talker feat. This way you can use both it AND a wandering spirit of your choice for extra spirit spells.
wow! i missed that!
spirit talker adding the arcane boon.
so which 2 to take ? mmmm
i lowered it to 4 :
battle
mammoth
life
flame
which will be the main ?
i am thinking life will never grow old. one of the other 3 to switch when i want spells \ melee.
spirit talker adding the arcane boon.
so which 2 to take ? mmmm
i lowered it to 4 :
battle
mammoth
life
flame
which will be the main ?
i am thinking life will never grow old. one of the other 3 to switch when i want spells \ melee.
That is what i did. But on days where you expect to throw Lots of fireballs you can either get it with spirit talker or make flame your wandering spirit and then Pick
Fluid Magic (Su): The shaman's magic is not constrained by the reservoirs of magic that hold others back. She is able to prepare her spirit magic spells in her regular spell slots. If the shaman changes her wandering spirit, any prepared spirit magic spell belonging to that spirit becomes an open spell slot.
From the waves spirit with spirit talker.
So Many options:)
I would take Battle or Mammoth (maybe Flames, but it doesn't call to me) primary, Life Wandering, and Arcane enlightenment via Spirit Talker.
Life Primary just doesn't have much going for it. Channel is great, but most of the hexes are marginal, and the greater spirit is meh. Whereas Bane or a Str bonus are both cool, and there are at least a couple of cool hexes.
I say this after playing a PFS Life Shaman (Witch Doctor) and wishing I had selected something other than Life (Battle or Heavens for me) around level 2 when I realized there wasn't anything else in Life worth having that Wandering Spirit didn't get me.
so, i will trait frost bite and use the hairs & lunge featto attack at 15' away while i am under overland flight.
1d6+12 isnt high, but with haste it's 3 attacks a round.
opponent will be shaken & fatigue & entangled - no real save.
all as a level 1 spell.
if cold or non lethal immune, i will use a third level toppling spiritual weapon .
if also a trip immune, than hexes, buffs etc.
and those are only low level spells....
than comes, the pit spells i will steal from the mage list with hydraulic push ?
I would take Battle or Mammoth (maybe Flames, but it doesn't call to me) primary, Life Wandering, and Arcane enlightenment via Spirit Talker.
Life Primary just doesn't have much going for it. Channel is great, but most of the hexes are marginal, and the greater spirit is meh. Whereas Bane or a Str bonus are both cool, and there are at least a couple of cool hexes.
I say this after playing a PFS Life Shaman (Witch Doctor) and wishing I had selected something other than Life (Battle or Heavens for me) around level 2 when I realized there wasn't anything else in Life worth having that Wandering Spirit didn't get me.
thanks for the input.
the deal is this,
life is something you mostly want for the spontaneous spells.
affliction removals, heal...
the fast healing on the familiar aint bad as well.
channel for a free 6d6 / 3 times a day isnt bad for after comabt free heals.
the rest is indeed rotten.
the free hexes are always taken of the other spirit.
but, if you took life (and you REALLY want the spells from it), than you can be one day a off blaster (flames) and the next a mammoth or battle.
the switching keep altering your roles.
if i will grab mammoth (that seem SO MUCH better than battle, the hexes, the +4 str, the overrun options where battle offer mostly WP SP and bane (+2d6 )) or battle as main, than it's life almost always as #2, no fast healing on pet.
there will be little times i will ever take another wondering hex.
BTW - why all like heavens? it lack the OP heaven of oracles.
Heaven spirit has Heaven's Leap, which lets you teleport your two-weapon fighter ally into melee range, effectively giving him pounce. It also lets you pull teammates out of danger. Enveloping Void will effectively blind an enemy that doesn't have darkvision, and it lasts for several rounds.
Heaven spirit has Heaven's Leap, which lets you teleport your two-weapon fighter ally into melee range, effectively giving him pounce. It also lets you pull teammates out of danger. Enveloping Void will effectively blind an enemy that doesn't have darkvision, and it lasts for several rounds.
after re-reading it, it's not half bad.
pity the spells it add for spontaneous casting are not so good.
at least those of levels 1-4.
taking this and life will add a lot of utility, but little use of the spontaneous "get away" .
If you don't take the Battle Spirit, you can take Ant Haul as a Favored Class Bonus spell and then you can get by with a much lower strength.
true.
how about mammoth as main ?
it seem legit, and focusing on the strong side of off-melee,
a 3/4 BAB at those levels will never be as potent as a fighter or ranger (and so it should be), not without 5 rounds of buff time.
mammoth seem stronger than battle, battle adding damage (boring and not the str point).
1) adding dazing attack with like "dazing assault " style.
2) it works well with lunge and enforcer feat.
i can be a great caster & melee de-buffer.
imp overrun opponents, rimed-enforcer-frost bite as level 1 spell trick,
toppling spiritual weapon (with or without the full bab feat).
the constant +4 to str is nice allow a start point of str of 13-14.
level 16 your companion become a fearsome beast of war.
the off spirit will change between heavens (utility), life (savior), and flame (when i want to blast everything...)
is it efficient enough ?
or toss the idea of off melee with medium str score, and focus on pure casting \ summons, high as possible cha\int\wis with con of 14.
than switch heaven or life as main, and flame on the off times.
Stone is also worth a look if you plan to do a melee shaman. Mainly for this hex.
Stone Stability (Ex): The shaman receives a +4 bonus to her CMD when resisting bull rush or trip attempts as long as she is standing on the ground. At 5th level, the shaman receives Improved Trip as a bonus feat. At 10th level, the shaman receives Greater Trip as a bonus feat. The shaman does not need to meet the prerequisites of these feats." That is a lot if feats at level 10. If you already have a reach build it May be fun to add some variaty to it some days:)
I wanted Heaven mostly because Void Adaption looks awesome. :) Heaven's Leap doesn't seem bad either.
The main problem with Life is that the Greater Spirit ability is completely wasted. So if you know you're always going Life/X, you're usually better switching to X/Life. Fast Healing on the familiar can be handy, if you're going for a combat familiar. Although +2 Inherent Str is solid too.
The only thing I'm iffy on with Mammoth is that the greater spirit is an enhancement bonus, so that's just saving yourself some cash (vs Bane which is a big buff.)
I wanted Heaven mostly because Void Adaption looks awesome. :) Heaven's Leap doesn't seem bad either.
The main problem with Life is that the Greater Spirit ability is completely wasted. So if you know you're always going Life/X, you're usually better switching to X/Life. Fast Healing on the familiar can be handy, if you're going for a combat familiar. Although +2 Inherent Str is solid too.
The only thing I'm iffy on with Mammoth is that the greater spirit is an enhancement bonus, so that's just saving yourself some cash (vs Bane which is a big buff.)
i decided to keep str at min.... 13 +\- and go for the X\life advice.
life is indeed better as a spell list, hexes suck, and spirit is soso.
X = heavens i think, decent spells, ok hexes and powers.
life is #2 mostly, and flame every now ans than.
I really like Shield Other for 2nd level, too. May be less useful to you if you're going to be a frontliner.
Shaman also don't get Remove Disease, frustratingly. I'd at least consider that. Another option is Accept Affliction (3rd)+Cleanse(5th.) Which avoids the CL check to remove disease. Cleanse is pretty handy regardless, particularly with Delay Poison.
Disease can be taken care of with the healing skill, since it is usually not an instant problem like poison (and since diseases just reduce your stats, any restoration can help out, too).
I'm currently playing a level 8 human shaman of the heavens in Carrion Crown as our primary debuffer/controller and i'm having a blast. I went all in on Wisdom and have a few points over in Cha, that in retrospect i really don't need.
One thing to remember when building out your feats, is that shamans do no get the Hex class feature until lvl 2, so the 2 feats at level 1 on a human can't buff that area, unless you're allowed to retrain them later. Also, Spirit Talker requires shaman level 6, so it's pretty much your locked in level 7 feat. Amplified Hex and Accursed Hex are great options to consider as well. Since Heavens is my main spirit if i Wandering Spirit something with crap spirit spells as well the spell slots are still fodder for Amplified Hex. Accursed Hex is just a nice to have, but honestly it hasn't been a huge issue with resists at this point.
Another nice thing to remember is that the Heavens Spirit Power, Stardust. Has absolutely no save. So if you want a quick debuff, or need to prevent concealment/invisibility. It's a solid fall back. I used this a lot at lower levels when my options were not nearly as crazy. But now, it's still useful for the anti-concealment/invisibility.
Between all of the various cloud based spells and being able to flex into Water Sight as needed, i can control the battlefield pretty much as needed. Especially now that i have the Dark Vision from Void Adaptation.
As pointed out, Wandering Spirit as Flame with Spirit Talker as Fluid Magic is boss. It let's you fall back into blaster if you really need. Just cleared out an entire tower full of skeletons while flying to give my team a place to land the other day. Fun times. Also, Spirit Talker into Air Barrier lets you drop your mundane armor if you don't want the ACP. Need to scry on something? Water Sight's your friend! Want to be a great scout with Clairvoyance? BAM, Wind Sight. The versatility is really pretty crazy. My party says "You can do that too?" pretty much every session.
My typical combat has me angling for a good position near the back of the group and our rogue/sniper. Opener is almost always some version of Evil Eye on the BBG. Either to AC or Saves depending on the particular monster. Next round will be Misfortune if he's still up. 3rd round is usually Fortune on a melee or more Evil Eyes. While that is what i would consider "typical" things can vary dramatically. Oh, i have Enveloping Void today? Guess someone's going to get blinded! I'm also always on the lookout for a good Heavens Leap. Oh, someone got grappled? Not anymore! Oh, the ninja's hurt. YOINK! Come stand next to the cleric for a round!
The only problems that i've really run into were in the earlier levels around 4 and 5 ish where i did not have a lot of options once the BBG was down. But now i find myself overloaded with options in combat. I'm very vigilant about keep my save DCs up as well. I've been taking every possible opportunity to buff my Wisdom when available.
A quick pitch for magic items. Grab a Quick Runner's Shirt. That extra move action for Chant can come in really handy some times!
Also, for defensive spells that you can FC i recommend Defending Bone and Iron Skin in addition to all of the other nice options that folks have thrown out.
Sorry for the rambling. But i am really enjoying my shamans, and i hope you'll enjoy yours too :-)
For feats the only real must have is Spirit Talker. That one feat opens up so many more options that it's crazy!
Extra Hex is always a solid option. There are a lot of good hexes out there!
Amplified Hex is a nice feat if you want to focus on making sure you4 offensive hexes stick. It is especially nice considering that you have a free spontaneous slot each day that you probably won't need regularly.
If you're already buffing your offensive hexes then Accursed Hex is pretty solid too.
Other than that, you can look up some of the other guides for oracles or witches to get some other potential ideas.
decided on a full build, play tested for 2 meetings and so far working very well!
here is the build i decided (and the why's )
Shaman caster level 13, Heaven as main spirit.
abilities and traits :
Human, Gypsy like looker.
i decided to be a full caster - without melee options.
25 points buy, +2 charisma \ wisdom item.
all FCP went to getting more clerical spells (after level 3)
traits (we get 1 only at level 1, i took additional traits)
Magical Lineage > spiritual weapon (see tactics below)
wisdom in a flesh > stealth for scout like
Birthmark > no sunder of focus
abilities :
str 8 (no need for it with ant haul)
dex 10
con 14 (need to live...)
int 16 (need a +2 item so i can get almost ALL wizard spell list...)
wis 22 (after item)
cha 16 (after item, allowing 3 wizard spell a day! )
i wonder what to give up to grab Slumber or another Witch hex... but...
Tactics:
1) use rime frost bite for de-buff Vs strong AC oppoenent.
2) fortune your allies pre-combat and chant
3) overland flight for mobility.
4) spiritual weapon, toppling, dazing with evil eye. you spam it - and all foes roll saves all the time . you never memorize it - as preferred spell, so you can take spells like teleport and plane shift - and max not use them - spontaneous casting the spiritual weapon.
5) via arcane enlightenment, add any 3 spells you feel you are lacking . mostly stuff like teleport, hungry pit, blink, hand spells etc.
6) wondering spirit is mostly life - for condition removal and heal.
7) programmed image, cast pre hand, allow a globe of darkness - for defense
Have you thought abut how you're going to use your familiar? Mauler, Protector, Mascot, and Figment, or an Improved Familiar all bring a lot to the table, and it's worth thinking about.
I'd try to find a way to fit Divine Interference in at 11th. Personally, I don't feel like Rime spell is worth the feat here, since you're invested in another metamagic chain. Grabbing a Rime rod for the occasional time you might want it should be fine.
Have you thought abut how you're going to use your familiar? Mauler, Protector, Mascot, and Figment, or an Improved Familiar all bring a lot to the table, and it's worth thinking about.
I'd try to find a way to fit Divine Interference in at 11th. Personally, I don't feel like Rime spell is worth the feat here, since you're invested in another metamagic chain. Grabbing a Rime rod for the occasional time you might want it should be fine.
As shaman cant alter their level 1 animal, dm claim they cant take improve familiar....so.... Theres that. No iten buying at all, so rime is feat or nothing. Divine interferance is nice.... But, 1/day seem slim for a feat, and already wasted scribe as "team feat" fir healings.
Is rime underwelming? Not many cold spells but...
Rimed frost bite for level 2 debuff to tender hard foes ?
Cold ice storm, level 5 spell that blast 5d6, humper area and entangle all for long? Ice spears (via mage spells), for trip and entangle? Seem not bad fir a non damaging character....
option 1 = no memorize for spiritual weapon will allow me to take non useful spell and re-use them if needed. or learn AOE spells and alter them for the "right" spiritual weapon (toppling, dazing etc.)
option 2 = slumber is potent, althoug i always have SOMETHING to do with evil eye, misfortune, heavens's ability (Stardust) etc.
yet slumber offer a way to save to be removed - for at least 2 rounds- not bad.
persistent is amazing on low levels like dazing+persistent frost bite (lvl 6 spell), persistent + Burst of Radiance
option 3= altering elemental for firballs, ball lighting etc can be handy.
acidic lighting ball in particular offer -4 build in to the save Vs dazing spell, with acid damage. a lvl 5 with spell perfection.
option 4 = full BAB dazing toppling spiritual weapon. it hits you stop.
adding 4 to the to hit isnt bad at all.
dazing+persistent full BAB spiritual weapon is a menacing spell indeed.
