Delay Action and Initiative Order


Rules Questions


After a recent session an interesting rules point came up about delay.
For simplicity sake I have reduced the player numbers just to the interested parties.

In the initiative count we have

Player 1 23 Dex bouns +2
Player 2 15 Dex bouns +3
Enemy 1 15 Dex bouns +1
Enemy 2 15 Dex bouns +1

So, player 1 wants to delay until player 2 takes their action and then act.
Player 2 acts, so player 1 says I would like to act now, not knowing when the enemy is about to act, but DM tells player 2 they act on initiative 14.

As far as I can tell according to the rules, “By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act.”

So player 1 should act on initiative count 15 after player 2 and act before enemy 1 and 2 as their initiative bonus is greater.

Am I reading this right?


The Dexterity bonus only applies when initially setting up the initiative order.

So what you have is the following order:
Player 1 (Delaying)
Player 2
Enemy 1
Enemy 2

Player 1 states he wants to act after Player 2, that is where you move him to.

The new order is:
Player 2
Player 1
Enemy 1
Enemy 2


OK so what about this scenario:

Player 1 23 Dex bonus +3
Player 2 15 Dex bonus +2
Enemy 1 15 Dex bonus +1
Enemy 2 14 Dex bonus +4

Player 1 wants to act after player 2, again not know the enemy's initiative. So as per the Delay action, you can

"By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point."

So if player 1 delays to initiative count 15 at which point we compare dex and he still goes before player 2 and both enemies. If however he wants to act after player 2 do they have to lower his initiative count to 14 or do they slip in between enemy 1 and enemy 2.


You are too focused on the initiative bonuses. All those do is set up the initial initiative order.

Stop using the initiative (dex) bonuses to determine who goes first on the same initiative count AFTER the initiative is initially set up, it doesn't matter.

When someone delays all you do is move him to after the person/creature he decided to act after.

Player 1 delays until after Enemy 1 (you said player 1, I assume you meant enemy 1).

That changes the order to:
Player 2: 15
Enemy 1: 15
Player 1: 15 (or 14, doesn't matter, he is still between Enemy 1 and Enemy 2)
Enemy 2: 14

Again, "Dex bonus..." is only used for initiative during the initial setup. Do not use it to decide who goes first on the same initiative count after the initial setup.


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perhaps a clearer way of stating it, after initiative is set up, those numbers you derived are useless and can be forgotten, they are mearly there to deturmin turn order. once turn order is deturmined one delays to after or before where ever they may chose


Between delayed actions and readied actions tracking initiative is tough job...that involves lots of erasing.

- The Party Clerk


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No erasing required, use a magnet board.


How does that work? do you have dry-erase labels attached to a magnet?
My GM often has several different groups of bad guys so I would need some flexibility.


The Bald Man wrote:
How does that work? do you have dry-erase labels attached to a magnet?

Tada!

One of the handiest GM tools I own.


Hey, here's my 2 cents.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Delay

"You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point."

All you have to say is you want to act after your ally.


The Bald Man, what Joanna said, I have one of those (not that specific one, but one like it). :)


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An an alternative to the magnet board, you can also use initiative cards.

I personally use half-cut index cards. I write down pertinent information for each player/character on one card (even non-combat related things) at the start of the game.

When we get to combat, I jot down their initiative roll in the top right corner, then sort them. After that, progressing through turns is the simple task of moving the top card to the bottom of the stack.

If someone delays or readies I'll either rotate the card 90 degrees in the stack or set the card aside and re-add it when applicable.

Liberty's Edge

What I do is I write everyone's initiatives down, leaving space just in case someone goes between two people. If there's a tie, whoever has the better Initiative modifier goes first. (If there's still a tie, d20s are rolled, highest roller goes first.)

If someone delays, I write something like "DELAY" or "D" next to their initiative, then wait for them to say something like "Okay, I'm going now" or "After he goes, I'll take my turn." I move them around in my Mighty Initiative Tracking Piece of Notebook Paper.

Of course, the one rule about delaying is that everybody seems to forget: If someone's still delaying and everyone else went, say something like "Hey, Zodiark. Everyone else went, round's almost over. Use it or lose it."


Snorb wrote:
Of course, the one rule about delaying is that everybody seems to forget: If someone's still delaying and everyone else went, say something like "Hey, Zodiark. Everyone else went, round's almost over. Use it or lose it."

Just to make sure... you do realize that's not really accurate? Once you're in delay, it makes no difference when you come out of delay. (apart from timing relative to others) You're not in a "use it or lose it" situation. You're on standby and ready to come out and act whenever you desire. After you've acted, you're returned to the initiative order and won't be able to act for an entire round from this new spot.

Liberty's Edge

The Bald Man wrote:

How does that work? do you have dry-erase labels attached to a magnet?

My GM often has several different groups of bad guys so I would need some flexibility.

Funny enough, that is exactly what I have. I made my own GM screen where I placed a metal strip on the top edge of the middle panel and then made some double-sided dry erase magnets. I write the character/monster name on both side and shift them around as needed. It has worked great.

The screen is also oriented to landscape to allow for enough initiative space and a better view of the players. :)

Liberty's Edge

Byakko wrote:
Snorb wrote:
Of course, the one rule about delaying is that everybody seems to forget: If someone's still delaying and everyone else went, say something like "Hey, Zodiark. Everyone else went, round's almost over. Use it or lose it."
Just to make sure... you do realize that's not really accurate? Once you're in delay, it makes no difference when you come out of delay. (apart from timing relative to others) You're not in a "use it or lose it" situation. You're on standby and ready to come out and act whenever you desire. After you've acted, you're returned to the initiative order and won't be able to act for an entire round from this new spot.

That is actually not correct.

Delay
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.

When you delay, you have to state what your new initiative will be. While most GMs may accept 'after Bob' or 'before Bob', the player is supposed to state a number. You cannot just arbitrarily state when you wish to come out of delay.

And while you can be an annoying player by stating 'I delay until 16', then 'I delay until 15', then 'I delay until 14', etc, you cannot end the delay as a response to something.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
RedDogMT wrote:

You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.

In my experience most players choose the later option of that or statement declaring when they come back in. After whoever has the current turn.

Because your right, saying I delay until 10.0, I delay until 9.9, I delay until 9.8 .... repeatedly adds very little value to game.


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RedDogMT, your own quote states otherwise, "or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point."

You can either specify a number or just wait. So yes, you can just end the delay as a response to something, although you will go after that something (rather than before as in the case of a readied action).

Byakko is absolutely correct. The concept that you lose your turn is an outdated concept, you are delaying it, even if you delay it until your next action would have come up.

The problem with the concept of losing it is some GMs will say 'well, round 1 is done, you have lost your turn' when that is not how delay works.

Example:
starting initiative order:
"Start of round"
Player 1
Player 2
Enemy 2
Enemy 3
Player 3
Enemy 1
"End of round"

Player 3 decides to delay.
The "lose your turn" GM will state that if he does not act before the "end of the round" then he loses his action. This is absolutely, utterly, wrong.

The correct procedure is that Player 3 is delaying until he chooses to act or his normal initiative comes up. He can choose to act after Enemy 1, after Player 1, after Player 2, etc.

CRB p203 wrote:

Initiative Consequences of Delaying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don’t get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again).

If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.


RedDogMT wrote:
Byakko wrote:
Snorb wrote:
Of course, the one rule about delaying is that everybody seems to forget: If someone's still delaying and everyone else went, say something like "Hey, Zodiark. Everyone else went, round's almost over. Use it or lose it."
Just to make sure... you do realize that's not really accurate? Once you're in delay, it makes no difference when you come out of delay. (apart from timing relative to others) You're not in a "use it or lose it" situation. You're on standby and ready to come out and act whenever you desire. After you've acted, you're returned to the initiative order and won't be able to act for an entire round from this new spot.

That is actually not correct.

Delay
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.

When you delay, you have to state what your new initiative will be. While most GMs may accept 'after Bob' or 'before Bob', the player is supposed to state a number. You cannot just arbitrarily state when you wish to come out of delay.

And while you can be an annoying player by stating 'I delay until 16', then 'I delay until 15', then 'I delay until 14', etc, you cannot end the delay as a response to something.

I agree that you can't end a delay in order to interrupt another action, but you can certainly decide to end your delay in response to another turn ending. As you pointed out, a player can simply state they are delaying 1 "unit" of initiative time repeatedly until they are ready to act. It's the same end result. I've never even heard of a GM forcing their players to do this.

However, even if you enforce this mechanic, they are still not at risk of losing any more time than they've already spent. When they come out of delay, their initiative count is set to the new position regardless.


I use initiative numbers during the whole combat, if someone declares a delay taking place "until immediately after Bob" then that's when they get it...

If a monster at "the same initiative" has a higher Dex than the character who delayed, too bad for the monster... player already beat the monster in initiative roll, thus goes before him. Changing his number of initiative doesn't mean he lost the roll.

That's how we do it.

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