Bloodrager and Spell Completion items


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

11 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Can a Bloodrager use Spell Completion items(such as Scrolls), prior to 4th level?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

For example:

Can a 1st Level Bloodrager use a Scroll of Long Arm, without having to UMD it?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

For example:

Can a 1st Level Bloodrager use a Scroll of Long Arm, without having to UMD it?

Well, I was going to guess it worked like Paladins and Rangers, who have the spells on their list, but have no effective caster level until 4. However, Bloodrager has no language in its spells section indicating that the Bloodrager has any diminished caster level, even if they don't have spells until level 4. That would suggest that they could use spell completion items, in addition to spell-trigger items, for spells on the Bloodrager spell list in the same way a level 1 Sorcerer could for spells they don't know yet but which are on their list.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, a Bloodrager's caster level is equal to his level.

This, at least, has been confirmed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I swear this was answered somewhere.


Important text listed below. The bloodrager does not gain spells until lvl 4, therefore they are not considered a caster until reaching lvl 4.
Since they are not a caster until lvl 4, they can not use spellc ompletion items, unless they roll a UMD check (just like rangers/paladins).

Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a bloodrager gains the
ability to cast a small number of arcane spells drawn from
the bloodrager spell list (see page 22). To learn or cast a
spell, a bloodrager must have a Charisma score equal to
at least 10 + the spell level. He can cast spells he knows
without preparing them ahead of time. The saving throw
DC against a bloodrager’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the
bloodrager’s Charisma modifier.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That's not how Rangers and Paladins are worded.

Both have these:

Ranger wrote:
Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his ranger level – 3.

and,

Paladin wrote:
Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3.

The Bloodrager has nothing similar to such wording.


Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

This is probably what you're thinking about. Before lv4 he has no caster level. At lv4 his caster level is 4.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, that answers the the Spell Trigger question.

I, am not sure if that answers the Spell Completion question.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It does not answer the spell completion question.

In the case of Paladins a and Rangers, they can not use spell completion items (like scrolls), however as stated by others the wording is different for Bloodrager.

Although they can't cast spells before 4th level, there is nothing to indicate they don't have a caster level at first level. Since the wording is different, I think maybe they are supposed to have a caster level which means they could attempt to use a scroll.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That's exactly what I was curious about.


I think this is a case of someone somewhere forgetting to copy and paste.

Since neither paladins nor rangers can use spell completion items, I am lead to believe bloodragers cannot either.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
bigrig107 wrote:

I think this is a case of someone somewhere forgetting to copy and paste.

Since neither paladins nor rangers can use spell completion items, I am lead to believe bloodragers cannot either.

I don't think it is a cut and paste error. Here is a comment from one of the developers during Playtest about giving full caster level.


bigrig107 wrote:

I think this is a case of someone somewhere forgetting to copy and paste.

Since neither paladins nor rangers can use spell completion items, I am lead to believe bloodragers cannot either.

They may not be able to, however it is not likely to be for the same reason. There is nothing similar to pallys and rangers in a bloodrager except for gaining spells at 4th level. Otherwise, VERY different. Not a valid reason to assume.


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The bloodrager doesn't gain the ability to cast spells Till level four. Thus it isn't a spell caster till level four


Chess Pwn wrote:
The bloodrager doesn't gain the ability to cast spells Till level four. Thus it isn't a spell caster till level four

I don't think it's that simple. While the Bloodrager doesn't cast spells until level four, it is a spell casting class. The rule for calculating caster level makes no stipulation that an individual needs to have a spells class feature in order to qualify for a caster level, only that it be a "spellcasting class" which I think Bloodrager most certainly qualifies.

Caster Level

Quote:


A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target's spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

Or put another way, both Paladin and Ranger would not need this language if your statement was true.

"Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3."
"Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his ranger level – 3."

The first sentence in both would be unnecessary if the spells class feature was prerequisite for a caster level. They are both examples of a "class feature or other special ability provid[ing] an adjustment to your caster level" outside the general rule.

There's certainly a question of whether it's intended or not, but we have a general rule with special cases built in. In the only two directly analogous cases we have of a delayed spells class feature (Ranger and Paladin), there is specific language consistent with the general rule removing the early level caster levels.

If it's intended that the bloodrager has no caster level until level four, and then gets full caster level, the following language should be included in the bloodrager spells class feature to be consistent with the general rule:

"Through 3rd level, a bloodrager has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his bloodrager level."


The bloodrager doesn't need special text because it still follows the general rules. "Through 3rd level, a bloodrager has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his bloodrager level." would be redundant as that is how it the general dictate it to function already. At levels 1-3 a bloodrager cant cast spells, so he has no caster level. At level 4, he gains spells, and without the paladin/ranger exception now has a caster level of 4. No special rules exceptions needed.

There is nothing requiring caster level to start at 1 and progress from there. Just like if an aasimar took the racial feat to gain a SLA at higher levels, their caster level is equal to their current level, even though they never progressed through the lower caster levels. That is exactly equivalent to the situation here.


Magic Items wrote:
To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake.

The way I'm interpreting this is: No, a Bloodrager can't use any scrolls before level 4. By level 4 he can use any level 1 scroll with a spell from the Bloodrager's spell list. And there is a chance he'll make a mistake if he doesn't know the spell by 4th level (though I have no idea of what that would be).

EDIT: I'm an idiot. That's mishaps and doesn't apply to this.

scrolls wrote:


To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

  • The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
  • The user must have the spell on her class list.
  • The user must have the requisite ability score.
  • This means that a Bloodrager (or any other class that can cast spells) can use the correct type of scrolls (divine and arcane), at any level, as long as the spell is on their spell list.


    Calth wrote:

    The bloodrager doesn't need special text because it still follows the general rules. "Through 3rd level, a bloodrager has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his bloodrager level." would be redundant as that is how it the general dictate it to function already. At levels 1-3 a bloodrager cant cast spells, so he has no caster level. At level 4, he gains spells, and without the paladin/ranger exception now has a caster level of 4. No special rules exceptions needed.

    There is nothing requiring caster level to start at 1 and progress from there. Just like if an aasimar took the racial feat to gain a SLA at higher levels, their caster level is equal to their current level, even though they never progressed through the lower caster levels. That is exactly equivalent to the situation here.

    The general rule, which I quoted, is that caster level is equal to class level in the class which casts spells unless a class feature dictates otherwise. In 90% of cases, this works because classes get the spells class feature do so at level 1. In the two examples we have where spells class feature is delayed (Ranger and Paladin) there's explicit language modifying the general rule. Bloodrager lacks any language to that effect, so I don't see why you'd assume their caster level is any different than an equivalent level sorcerer.

    As I said, it's entirely in the realm of possibility that RAI is that they cannot use scrolls, but -- given the scroll use rules, caster level rules, and the lack of any specific modification to a bloodrager caster level -- it seems that RAW they should be able to use scrolls at level 1.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

    It's a weird enough situation, that I highly suggest everyone hit the FAQ button on the first post.


    blackbloodtroll wrote:
    It's a weird enough situation, that I highly suggest everyone hit the FAQ button on the first post.

    I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing the problem, at all. A character only needs the spell on their class spell list, nothing is said about being able to cast spells at their current level or have a caster level. That's where mishaps comes in.

    Or are you wondering if they do have a caster level, to avoid mishaps (or to make a caster level check to avoid them (I can't find something saying that you can't make one without a caster level)) at level 1-3?
    There is nothing claiming that you don't get a caster level untill you're able to cast spells (exception is Ranger and Paladin as noted by them selves and while no other class calls out a caster level), meaning that they do have one at all levels.

    Though if not, I think it would be better to rephrase the question before we press FAQ, to get the right question across.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

    I understand that for some, it is a "it's so totally obvious to me, that any questioning of it's function is the act of fool" situation.

    Here is the thing: when I go to my DM, or a PFS table, I want a to just have a "it's says here, I explicitly can".

    If I have to read out the scroll rules, the Bloodrager class, then show both the Ranger and Paladin rules, to show the evidence they are not the same, and then explain why the interpretation I have come to, is the correct one, I will have a mass of table variance, that will eventually lead me to pretend Scrolls don't exist.

    I do suppose the better question is "Before 4th level, does the Bloodrager count as having a caster level?".


    I understand. I pressed FAQ on the original post. Hopefully they provide a desirable answer.

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